Please, Nerf Alistar.

TiberiusAudley·8/18/2015, 12:47:44 AM·74 votes·8,407 views

Before I get started talking about why, I want to give some context on my experience with Alistar. Alistar

  • Alistar has been my main since Beta. I was one of the Top 500 / Master Beta Testers.
  • I am currently Diamond V (was Diamond IV 100 LP a few days ago before a string of bad games.)
  • I currently have over 100k Mastery points with Alistar (155 ranked games this season)
  • He was my most played last season (83 games, didn't play much.) and 3rd most in Season 3 (when his ult was in a terrible state early game.)
  • I made a thread last year before the Alistar buffs with recommendations for the upcoming rework we were told he was going to get some day.

Now, why do I want him nerfed?

To be specific, I want his ultimate nerfed (and possibly his CC durations tuned down.)

As it stands, his ultimate's 70% damage reduction turning him into a nigh invincible god for half a team fight holds him back from getting any actual power in his kit. Take a look at tanks like Maokai and Gragas who bring similar CC power to a team, but are also allowed to give the team waveclear and damage. Both of these champions have % damage reduction abilities on their kits, but on nowhere near the same level as Alistar's.

As someone who loves Alistar's impact being tied to his positional prowess, I hate that my ability to contribute to a team still relies almost entirely on my team's ability to do damage. All I bring is CC. Sure, it's strong CC, and Alistar's QFlash -> Headbutt combo is one of the strongest forms of engage in the game in terms of isolating a priority target. But if my team's behind or fails to follow-up on my call when I make a play, I'm shit out of luck in terms of securing that kill. Because I have no damage. Because I take no damage.

What's wrong with Alistar's ult?

In its current form, Alistar's ult has two problems: If his team is ahead, he's free to use the ultimate early, making him feel like an insurmountable tank. If his team is behind, then he's forced to ult reactively after receiving a large amount of burst, tragically reducing the amount of damage he can mitigate. It's an ability that is snowbally based off the pace of the game.

How would you change Alistar's ult?

I would personally reduce the damage reduction to 25 or 30%, and replace the remainder with a temporary Flat HP+Size+Range increase such as what Nasus/Renekton get when activating their ultimate. This would allow Alistar to ult reactively and still have a buffer of HP where incoming ignites or true damage sources don't just immediately delete him, while also making Alistar able to be taken down or killed when his team is ahead. It would also keep his tower dives from feeling like there is no room for counterplay, as he would actually be taking some amount of damage from the turret.

Overall, the change would be a net nerf (but would feel better when being used from behind or in situations where you have to ult in response to a large amount of burst.)

Where would you give Alistar power after this nerf?

First off, the idea that Alistar should never be in the jungle "because of how strong a jungler he was in S2" is a huge fallacy. His jungle power relied on a Level 2 gank pathing immediately after clearing a buff.

  • Back in Season 2, players did not ward at the start of the game. Most players did not even buy wards at the start of the game (this trend started in S3 with the Faerie+ward starts and later just ward+potion starts). Now, players have wards for free as of Level 1 and can get vision of an early Alistar gank.
  • In today's jungle, attempting to gank immediately after a buff not only puts you behind the enemy jungler in experience, but it also opens you up to being counterjungled heavily. Most junglers these days understand that when an enemy jungler shows on the map early, you can starve them of experience by taking away their camps.

Combined with the increased risk of Alistar's early ganks being spotted by trinket wards, there are enough tradeoffs that he should be allowed to clear the jungle...so, with that said:

I'd immediately move power back into his passive and Q's early game damage. Q's rank 1 damage is pathetic. Alistar's passive is even more pathetic, and essentially only useful for softening ranged minions in the support role to make sure 1 Tower shot + 1 ADC attack will kill them. In fighting or tower sieging, the skill is not useful at all.

  • Buff Q early damage curve.
  • Allow Alistar's Passive damage (and maybe E healing) to scale with his Max HP. This encourages him to build tanky, and will increase his power while his new ultimate is active. The E Healing would not be the first max HP-scaling heal in the game: See Shen.
  • Give Headbutt the treatment most other Pure Tank champions' W skills have: Target %Max HP damage scaling. Maokai Twisted Advance has it, Gragas W empowered Auto has it. You can even potentially find a way to make the WQ a damage tradeoff by making a WQ combo cut out the W's damage.
  • Potentially change his abilities (minus passive) to deal physical damage, encouraging him to utilize Armor Penetration more often. Back in the early days of Cow, when Sheen/Trinity Cow were a thing, Armor Pen was the common choice for his Reds. Nowadays, he's shoehorned into going just pure tank, because his lack of damage means he doesn't have much kill pressure early.

So please, Riot, As an Alistar main, I beg you:

Nerf Alistar's ultimate, so you can give him some real power in his kit somewhere.

I may be a Janna/Alistar main, and I may be the type of player who often wins games by setting up damage dealers to do all the work.

But sometimes I want to feel like my champion can do something else.

69 Comments

Lil Gr33n Ghouls8/18/2015, 3:13:02 AM10 votes

So you were a master beta tester ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Edit: I finished reading the rest of the post. I don't know enough about Alistar and the Supp meta to come up with an opinion, but very well written with some very good points. Thanks for contributing to the community with some well thought discussion.

Cloud Potato8/18/2015, 4:48:45 AM8 votes

Alistar is a champion whose kit screams 'low counterplay'. He would absolutely not be healthy as a Jungler because W is unavoidable. Most Junglers cannot force you out of your turret. The snowballing potential would be insane. His laning isn't much better. He's held back by his inability to get behind the enemy but Q is instant and E is... just a horribly designed ability. If his mana costs weren't obscene he would be ridiculous. R is a cherry on the cake, where pressing it means the enemy might as well give up trying to hurt you.

I agree that R is draining a lot of power budget, but the only ability that's really worth putting power into is his Passive. Q is an instant AoE knockup, W is a targeted displacement, and E is an AoE heal. Passive requires you to stay near the opponent for an extended period of time, which is all-around something to encourage doing. Also I would not be opposed to making him physical based. It just makes too much sense.

Yormaughm8/18/2015, 7:08:22 AM7 votes

My favorite thing here is how Alistar is basically pick/ban and has been for 2 seasons in a row, yet nobody complains about him.

Why is he so good? Cause he basically has a Poppy ult. Sure you CAN damage him, but the best thing to do is wait for it to wear off. Yet as the Alistar player who has just ulted (unless it's defensively as mentioned in the OP) you can kind of just ignore anyone/thing you want to until it wears off. Enemy turrets? What enemy turrets?

Yet Poppy (who never sees the light of day) is sooooo toxic that she deserves to be completely deleted and reworked according to basically everyone. IMO these champions are very very similar but the only difference is that Alistar doesn't do good damage and Poppy does. One would think, that since Poppy clearly has the best of both worlds here, she'd be an in-meta pick, but she's not because Alistar has better CC and sustain, and apparently, those two things are valued over damage by the pros who play this game. Makes you wonder what is really more OP?

I agree that Alistar's ult is way too strong, and it needs to be brought back in line. I also feel like if this was done and Alistar was given a bit more damage to work with, he'd overall be in a weaker state than his is now for the reasons I mentioned above. Sustain + CC + Heavy damage reduction is incredibly OP, even when it's packaged with little impactful damage, nerf one or more of these and then adding some damage is ok.

Fadedpf8/18/2015, 1:07:59 AM6 votes

You aren't going to address his insanely good base damages?

TurquoiseYoshi8/18/2015, 1:10:08 PM3 votes

The thing is, if Alistar is being pushed into a support role by Riot, then his kit makes a lot of sense. Supports can't really do much damage or waveclear. Especially tank supports like Alistar who don't build AP in most situations.

ArkenStorm8/18/2015, 4:28:48 AM2 votes

Give this man a cookie

Rico Nasty8/18/2015, 4:42:29 AM2 votes

Honestly he is fine.. Thresh needs it a lot more

Demonsolder218/18/2015, 4:14:19 AM2 votes

Interesting. here's a Bump.

Reynard the ƒox8/18/2015, 5:18:37 AM2 votes

Sejuani also has % max HP damage on her W

Narasimha8/18/2015, 1:24:58 AM2 votes

First off, the idea that Alistar should never be in the jungle "because of how strong a jungler he was in S2" is a huge fallacy. His jungle power relied on a Level 2 gank pathing immediately after clearing a buff.

As an Alistar main, I'm kinda surprised at this. You're completely off the mark. The issue was never his level 2 ganks. His problem was always the level 6 ganks. He has to be kept weak in the jungle, because otherwise he'd storm out, say "Fuck your tower", and proceed to cc the hell out of you until you died.

Latex Choker8/18/2015, 1:13:35 AM2 votes

I really like the changes you outlined above. Alistar has historically been a hard champion for Riot to balance and I'd like to see the big Cow given more agency over his power. I especially like the W to Max HP damage change, as not only would it potentially allow Alistar to solo lane in a healthy way again (No more outtrading people by continuously punting them away.) it also allows him to compete with other tanks and improves his jungle clear.

Critmaster Garen5/27/2016, 9:19:19 AM2 votes

problem is % damage reduction is the only defensive stat thats actually still worth a shit.

imo not the place where he needs changes either. his ability comp (headbutt + pulverize) being too reliable imo is what needs to change. his defense steroid, while powerful is imo not what puts him over the edge when hes strong, but the reliability of his cc.

think about it. why was jungle alistar nerfed? headbutt ganks.

why was solo lane alistar nerfed? headbutt + sheen proc = trades with no counterplay.

its always the fact that he can just point and click cc people, and not his innate tankyness.

maybe its time for headbutt to be changed into a skillshot. let him be the tankiest tank in the game, as long as his cc isnt too reliable at the same time.

even nautilus has to land a hook.

foinhas8/18/2015, 11:43:11 AM1 votes

the problem with jungle in season 2 wasn't just the lack of wards, but the fact that you would be ganked by lvl2 junglers even before you got your first cs. In shaco's case it was even worse: lvl3 shaco while you were in middle lvl1

Kitsuki058/18/2015, 11:43:51 AM1 votes

no damage? Have you not been auto attacking with him? Seriously, just smack some people around with some early AD runes, especially when your ult is up. That's where all the damage is.

Cow Stampedo5/27/2016, 9:15:02 AM1 votes

He has Just been nerfed. Your "points" are full of holes. He was completely re-worked. Been nerfed AGAIN, for no damn reason, his W/Q is much easier to avoid, his AP ratios are lowered, and his dmg has been cut across the board. Everyone needs to stop whining about the cow, and focus on annie/ Jhin being entirely broken.

iLuma8/18/2015, 3:13:38 PM1 votes

I really want to learn how to play Alistar. o-o

Xakinos8/18/2015, 3:25:10 PM1 votes

I think we all know how an Alistar rework would pan out.

Q probably about the same with a visual upgrade, W aimed charge like sej with knock back distance changing based on how far along he's charged (max range just a little push, melee range the knockback distance it is now) since it can miss it's cd would probably be reduced, E stacking armor and MR buff to Ali and nearby champs so that there's some actual counterplay and R is where they decide his direction. Either the AD gets removed and he gets some sort of cd reduction thing so he can initiate and peel. Maybe something like while it's active each time he gets hit his basic abilities cd is reduced by .5 sec or some such if they want him support. Or it gains some sort of damage component for using it if they think he should jungle.

Either way the damage reduction should be reduced and the bonus AD should be removed. As far as his damage goes that depends on the direction they want to take him. If he's support...sorry supports don't do damage live with it like the entire rest of the support cast. If they think he should jungle then his ap ratio will be reduced and he'll gain a hp ratio to compliment his ap ratio.

KONO RUBICK DA8/18/2015, 3:31:42 PM1 votes

there is a reason that alistar is unkillable, because he doesn't do anything. Everytime alistar ulti, none focus him that's very simple you don't want to focus someone that has 70% damage reduction. Additionally, you don't know why his ulti was nerfed in the first place. His ulti was nerfed because he could dive you at lvl 6, riot brought that back because they believed that they buchered every old strengths he had (tower pushing, burst with his old AP ratio, sustain with his old mana cost heal).

you're an alistar main and yet you know nothing about him. You said that his passive is useless at lvl 1 which is true, because this is a passive that is applied at each spell without cooldown this is why you need 3 spells to make it effective. to fixe this problem you gave him a health scaling are you serious? To fixe this you need to give his passive a cooldown and increase the base damage.

Alistar is fine, he doesn't need any changes. He is fun to play against because he has small range high mana cost unlike thresh/leona you can bait his ulti or burst him fast, that's the counter to damage reduction champion, or will we change tryndamere because when he is behind he can get bursted quickly without ultying?

by the way, you are changing alistar to do damage? Alistar whole point is to be a cc machine. there is no champion in league like alistar. he is unique as he brings later in the game 8.5 seconds aoe knock up which can't be reduced by tenacity and 6 seconds 1 sec knock back+ mini stun. He can totally srew up cc vulnerable champion like MasterYi Irelia who counters cc. In order to do that, he needs cdr and tankiness which is the whole point of his E and R. he doesn't need damage or ulti change people who upvoted you like they said don't play alistar and don't know anything on him.

If you have trouble against alistar ulti pick Vayne

Calibretto98/18/2015, 3:40:18 PM1 votes

GTFO.

Jofeyy8/18/2015, 4:37:37 PM1 votes

Everyone is asking for their mains to be nerfed... Is this still league of legend land? Or did i end up somewhere else?

Castman8/18/2015, 5:28:57 PM1 votes

I made a thread regarding this wayyyy back too. And I agree with all of what you said. I also suggested that his passive stays up for the duration of his ult but that was never looked into.

On a side note, his headbutt, thematically is the most visually and audibly underwhelming skill relative to a champion. For a cow headbutting someone, it sounds less scary than me flicking a bean. Seriously.

lDontLiftIcarry8/18/2015, 6:32:16 PM1 votes

Yeah dude been playing him since beta as well. got black alistar on my main account "Jungle" in kr.

Love him dude, he's the best. And you're right.

I'd love to play ali jungle again man, would be tight tight tight.

Carniverous8/18/2015, 8:53:43 PM1 votes

Bump

insaiyanbacca8/19/2015, 12:31:30 AM1 votes

actually i may be out of line or thinking entirely wrong here but i think alistar need a rework keep certain parts of his kit like maybe W or Q and give him a kit that could be better and easier to balance but that's rather off topic as for the topic at hand i completely agree here

Omiwom8/19/2015, 3:02:10 AM1 votes

As an Alistar player you wouldn't say that his massive dmg reduction and displacements and low strengths elsewhere make him a unique outlier? This is just my impression at a glance but wouldn't it be boring if every champ in a class had the same strengths in the same areas? If he gets the changes you suggested isn't he just a similar version of Maokai or Gragas?

MinaMíin4/7/2016, 4:10:23 PM1 votes

We had Alistar in our game, going Tank. After minute 20 He just stood in our Base, not giving a fk, Taunting while 4 Players hit him at the same time. He didnt even get 1000 Dmg. Then he ulted, made a triple, and the thing is. he was 2/4/18. So Riot, I entirely agree. PLEASE. NERF. HIM.Alistar item 3070

aperson18/18/2015, 7:44:03 AM1 votes

If they are going to rework anything, it's gonna be that crazy AoE heal. Tank supports really shouldn't be getting such powerful sustain tools. It may not seem like much but it adds up a lot - I've seen losing Alistars greatly out-heal winning Namis in the post-game stats.

Q is not going to be a high damaging spell unless its interaction with W is tweaked. I think giving it a delay like PBE Darius Q, then buffing it appropriately might not be a bad idea.

AzureInTheDark8/18/2015, 8:33:34 AM1 votes

Oh Alistar... The nightmares still haunt me... AP Alistar Mid, the worst possible thing that could happen to me, a measly Veigar player. The damage, the CC, the harass and lane bullying. It was all too real. Too much for me to handle. Nerf AP Alistar pls.