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Champions like pantheon, renekton and jayce don't seem to fall off as hard as they used to

fééd l0rd·8/9/2017, 3:43:21 PM·21 votes·1,793 views

In s5 or early s6 you know you're team is at a massive disadvantage late game if you picked any of these.

They don't offer much utility, there is a reason why people call pantheon a stun-bot in the later stages of the game.

Renekton used to be nothing but a meatshield who wouldn't have enough damage to shred through people late game and Jayce was genuinely trash after people started to group.

Those champions don't fall off a hard anymore.

I don't exactly know what it is but I seemed to notice that a renekton or panth who dominated early still can dominate the late game hard. Same goes for Jayce who can actually teamfight since deaths dance got buffed.

What happened? I mean those champions have a massively frustrating early game, 90% of top lane roster can't even deal with them early. Panth forces you to play like a bitch, Jayce is dangerously effective against weak tanks early and renekton bullies everyone.

What happened to them?

26 Comments

hhaavviikk8/9/2017, 7:31:44 PM6 votes

did jayce ever really fall off though? late game he basically has AOE nidalee spears, he has always had that

KoKoboto8/9/2017, 4:14:20 PM2 votes

Jayce is still great late game.

chipndip18/9/2017, 3:57:17 PM2 votes

Simple: You guys stopped playing tanks.

Sire Hippington8/9/2017, 5:10:53 PM1 votes

That's mostly because games end befor lategame more often. Their winrates at ~35+ min still dropp massively, and if you ever play them vs a decently coordinated sup+adc, you notice that aside from splitpushing, there is nothing you can do in the lategame cause your still utterly useless in lategame teamfights.

Zero Skill Tank8/9/2017, 5:24:58 PM1 votes

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BobaFlautist8/9/2017, 7:31:25 PM1 votes

They still have a hard time responding to a well coordinated tank-peel support-adc in a teamfight-the difference is that they've been given scaling bruiser items that they like (item 3748 item 3071 item 3156 ).

Back in the day, bruiser items used to be more focused on attack speed and on-hits, catering to chanps like Itelia and Shyvanna, these newer items are designed for Juggernauts but are hugely effective on the old lane bullies.

Now they're a lot like Lee Sin (who also used to build full tank late game): instead of everything about them falling off, only their play pattern and durability falls off while their damage remains relevant; they'll absolutely murder your adc if they can get onto them, but they really shouldn't be allowed into your adc in the first place.

Variks the Loyal8/9/2017, 7:39:24 PM1 votes

Pantheon or Renekton shouldn't mean that you auto-lose if the game reaches late. There still should be potential for those champions to win.

The mentality is that 'falling off' means they're significantly weaker outside laning phase. Take Renekton - his Q has a flat value instead of a percent, and it's amplified based on targets struck. In laning phase, you get big heals from Qing the enemy champion and the minion wave. Late game, it might only hit 2 people in a teamfight. In lane, your E is a potent engage tool since you can dash through a minion wave, but in teamfights, you put yourself in danger by trying to dash through a frontline to dash onto squishies.

So while Renekton's damage or tankiness doesn't fall off, his ability to properly function does because he's built around certain assumptions - that he'll have plenty of targets to Q heal off of, that he'll have a little target to E double dash with. Late game, you CAN outplay with these functions; double dashing with a jungle camp or using Q in a passing minion wave for a heal, but that's the idea; you NEED to outplay with them to have similar effectiveness as a teamfighting champion.

Jaygo418/10/2017, 1:14:15 AM1 votes

I mean honestly a big portion of the reason why they don't fall off as hard is because of items like item 3071, however i don't believe that there are as many (prevalent) late game terrors as there used to be. You don't hear much from Kog'Maw or Vayne to a lesser extent, and "scaling" to me is all relative to the champions around that champion

Tails90168/10/2017, 1:30:29 AM1 votes

To me, Pantheon feels more like kha zix: Oh you're alone and about to walk in the brush I'm in right now? Lol you just got one shot.

On the flip side, they don't function the way they should in team fights. They will one shot your ADC given the chance, but if they're never open? You won't survive long enough to be more than, as you said for Pan; a "stun-bot", or for Kha; a guy with no defense that gets one chance to one shot your adc

deadlychuck8/10/2017, 1:49:10 AM1 votes

What happened to them?

I think you're asking the wrong question. Basically nothing has happened to them, at least nothing significant from what i remember. It's what's happened to the game and the items. They've been reducing the average game length and changing how AD items scale.

Then mix in an increased tendency to snowball, and these early game power houses, no longer care that they fall off late game, because they'll get there before you and shut the game out before you have a chance to outscale them.

woodvsmurph8/10/2017, 1:49:35 AM1 votes

Changes to items, a buff here, a nerf there and they are more viable mid/late game even without a massive lead. Pantheon really does fall off late game provided you didn't feed him into a giant snowball and that he doesn't have multiple teammates to help him dive the backline - if he does, they are going to focus 1 target and delete them. Peeling and intelligent positioning are crucial. Jayce - hurts a ton, but is very mana reliant if he doesn't build some form of mana sustain or get blue. He was always decent late game, but he never got the chance to effectively utilize his poke enough before. With all the disengage/shields/heals and tanks protecting him and giving him free reign to poke, he looks better than before. Renekton - actually renekton really needs cleaver before he can start really winning. Before that, a j4, grag, darius, etc. can match or exceed his dps and win any duels. But if the renekton knows the matchup better, then yeah it is really rough. Give renekton any meaningful lead and 2 items and he is untouchable in most cases even with jungle help. But he does majorly fall off late game depending on team comps and whatnot. He either has to itemize very heavily into damage and hope to burst an enemy carry (probably using flash to do it) and hope the enemy doesn't have the cc and shields to prevent that... or build very tanky and hope the enemy team doesn't have a tank like maokai, gragas, or cho'gath - otherwise they out-tank him and he doesn't have the damage from just cleaver to be a backline threat. So he can neither kill the enemy carries nor tank and peel for his carries as effectively as the enemy tank can. He might be better than before in the late game, but he lost a bit in the early game.

BushidoBlade8/10/2017, 2:17:45 AM1 votes

so many lethality items in the game, also BC / DD combo makes bruisers hard to kill, gives enough cdr and enough ad to burst down carries. Carries' hp has stayed the same while more items have come out to make killing them easier (flat armor pen era). In a way I like that these champions are not completely useless in the endgame, but their strong earlygame means that they lack a definitive weakness right now (besides cc, which is everyone's weakness)..

DunkinNoobs8/10/2017, 2:56:51 AM1 votes

Weak early game champs aren't weak for as long as they used to be, so it's about even.

Tommy PickleNose8/10/2017, 1:07:47 PM1 votes

I have a theory on why renekton has scaled better now. It may or may not be the cause of it but a while back they changed his healing on q from a percentage of damage dealt to a flat amount + .4 of his ad I think it was, which makes his late game better since he doesn't need to do the damage to heal which means he can heal even when fighting tanks. Also since he used to be built bruiser he would only have damage from cleaver and hydra but now he actually has titanic which scales with all of the tank stats he likes to build thus giving him more damage.

buPPDrmXEO8/10/2017, 1:32:07 PM1 votes

Renekton falls of, and his early game isn't THAT great. Do you have 0 armor or what? Build tabis and Renekton starts healing you -40% damage on his main nuke (AA + triple W) gg

Sun Wu Ryuumoku8/10/2017, 9:46:14 PM1 votes

IMO Pantheon still fall off... in my eyes he's a shitty pick btw ^^ But he less fall of due to the item 3147 & item 3814 For Renekton its thanks to item 3193. And jayce didn't change.

hoganftw8/9/2017, 4:08:50 PM1 votes

Panth with lethality vs squishies = GGWP surr 20

FalconPawwwwnch8/9/2017, 4:19:15 PM1 votes

Because lethality + armor shred