Now that the dust has settled, can we all agree that the Xerath rework was a flop?

Sybil Cut··4 votes·1,176 views

Xerath

EDIT: Apparently the answer is no, and that we can't all agree. I guess using a provocative title gets you downvotes; this is why I can't stand reddit style posting, which is why I didn't use these forums prior to having no other outlet for LoL discussion. Why do people think that because they disagree with the opinion of the poster, that a discussion shouldn't happen? But I digress, this is not about the forums, nor about me being salty from downvotes. This is about Xerath.

Let me preface this not very long post by stating that it isn't going to actually be very long, nor does it deserve a preface.

Xelnath, I like you. You're a swell guy. You have a lot of great things to say, contribute to healthy discussion, and have a lot of transparency as a Rioter and as a person. That being said, I don't feel like you hit the Xerath rework on the head. That is, to say, that I feel his core gameplay was heavily disrupted, that his kit feels clunky (and dare I say makeshift), and while his new kit might be healthy from a gameplay perspective, I don't feel like it kept any of the charm from his old gameplay patterns. The reasons people play new Xerath are not the same reasons people played old Xerath, and I'd be hard pressed to say they're the same people.

I know that you've likely had this discussion dozens of times with dozens of people on the design team, but let me be frank.

He's not all that fun.

What Xerath had that appealed to me was the in-kit interaction he had and how that felt to actually execute. His Locus increasing his range, and his E triggering a stun on hit. As it stands, Xerath doesn't have the same appeal that his old kit has, and his Ultimate especially feels very lackluster.

This isn't about his damage (that might be fine) and it isn't about his visuals (he looks great) and, imagine this, it isn't about his Arcane Barrage (which I know was a large topic of discussion). It's just about his overall "kit feel" (forgive me for using vague and subjective terms). In the beginning, you told the LoL forums that the Xerath rework was less about addressing unhealthy play patterns and more about making the champion better to play and more appealing. I'll be honest with you in saying that I don't believe you guys really hit the mark.

That being said, I don't have access to the same information that you do. You have access to numbers and statistics that may indicate the relative success of your endeavour (which, if I'm not mistaken, were the basis of the original rework in the first place). If you don't mind me asking, how have the numbers with Xerath fared?

Everyone else who isn't Xelnath; have you played Xerath since the rework? Was he everything you imagined and more?

25 Comments

Jamaree8 votes

Well, since his rework, his play rate, tourney rate, and win rate have all gone up, so I guess not everyone feels the same?

Sybil Cut1 votes

so the answer is no, no we cannot all agree that the rework was a flop.

Earl Eulrich3 votes

Hmm well...I just hink his new ult feels incredible unsatisfying. With the old one you just went full "independence Day", tearing apart the entire City in one blast...the new one is like throwing cotton-balls with LCDs attached to them using a crippled arm. granted, the old Ult had been a little oppressive - but it just felt a lot better to use it + I really really miss the locus of power tying him to the ground, it felt a lot better for me then slowly loading a kame-hame-ha for range.

RumblesMeatballs3 votes

his previous kit was "ok" at best. it was literally built around building Armor to get AP similar to how Galio builds MR to get AP. its very niche and was almost never used since there are very few AD casters in mid compared to AP casters. his range through his W was amazing but they made up for that in his new kit by giving everything a long range plus they gave him a slow and a stun. soooooo overall his kit is actually better than before. no more being completely immobile to get someone that's running away unless you use your Ult.

personally i love his new kit more but i can see why you'd like his old kit more. it was really fun i won't lie but his new kit is very fun as well for a lot of people. not to mention MORE people have picked him up because of his new kit

Earl Eulrich2 votes

his old passive transfered AP into Armor, not the other way around. And his old kit had been a lot stronger, just lacked counterplay as bursting anything from 100-0 lategame from more than 1000range had been quite overwhelming (though really satisfying to use cough).

RumblesMeatballs1 votes

oh was it the other way around? fair enough lol but eh i still prefer his new kit anyways. still was a very niche pick tho no matter which his passive was

Stars Shaper3 votes

I have to disagree to that. I really like the new Xerath and I really liked the old Xerath.

Xelnath has done a lot of discussing with the playerbase before setting things up with it and what it came out was that the majority of the Xerath mains liked the "Long Range Sniper Mage" theme and liked Locus of Power most of everything in his kit.

By this you ofc can't expect a rework to satisfy all the involved players but he really did a good job also in terms of viability. He is probably one of the best characters out there int erms of power, balance and theme.

I have to say though that it's true that the Ultimate feels really underwelming and it's like shooting soap bubbles that deal tons of damage. It doesn't have the feeling of the destruction Xerath should bring.

Sybil Cut2 votes

I was there for that. I participated in that thread heavily and posted http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3579358 while that thread was still alive.

Stars Shaper1 votes

Kudos for you :)

Sybil Cut1 votes

Was less about kudos and more about giving some context to my post, in that I'm not being ignorant here, you know? but thank you, I was surprised to check that thread a couple days later to see how it had progressed.

Sybil Cut2 votes

As I read through old forum posts and such, it occurs to me that I post this thread a week shy of one year since his Xerath thread closed. I should have probably looked into that and posted this thread a week from now.

The Queen Viper2 votes

Did Xerath see competitive play before the rework? Did Xerath see competitive play after the rework?

... I think the answer is pretty straightforward.

Sybil Cut1 votes

I don't know what the answer is, because I haven't played this game in over 3 months aside from the last couple days and have been keeping up with Smash Bros. Melee competitive scene more than I have with this one. Has he been seen in competitive?

Earl Eulrich1 votes

he even saw competitive paly before...which is a reason he got reworked in the first place.

360D3GR3SS1 votes

I actually Enjoy him more now.

Killstrado1 votes

He is my go to guy when I'm losing on all other champs, I'm not pro with him but I certainly love his play style and I usually do the best with good ole xerath

SummonerSquid1 votes

I'm going to have to disagree with you. I've only played him a handful of times pre- and post-remake, but I think he feels less awkward than before. His kit "gets in the way" less than before. You aren't forced into certain combos.

DrCyanide1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sybil Cut,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aNkwmBQO,comment-id=,timestamp=2014-12-12T12:45:32.615+0000) Xerath

EDIT: Apparently the answer is no, and that we can't all agree. I guess using a provocative title gets you downvotes; this is why I can't stand reddit style posting, which is why I didn't use these forums prior to having no other outlet for LoL discussion. Why do people think that because they disagree with the opinion of the poster, that a discussion shouldn't happen?

The downvote option is there to show "I disagree", just like the upvote option is there to show "I agree". The report option is how to close a thread, not the votes. If you don't want a flood of votes, don't start out with a title that people can say "I agree" or "I disagree" to.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

The downvote option is there to show "I disagree", just like the upvote option is there to show "I agree". The report option is how to close a thread, not the votes. If you don't want a flood of votes, don't start out with a title that people can say "I agree" or "I disagree" to.

The problem with this take is twofold:

  1. Reddit, which these forums borrow heavily from, does not use downvotes to indicate disagreement.
  2. These forums use the up/down count to filter threads. Effectively, controversial posts are deleted from most of the sortings, even though they tend to be some of the most interesting threads (e.g. Morello talking about melee versus ranged tanked huge downvote spam).
DrCyanide1 votes

I know "New" and "Recent" don't filter that way. I believe "Hot" is based around discussion in general, but it's been too long since the server migration post happened for me to be sure of that one.

The only one I'm fairly certain filters on upvotes is "Best", but considering how infrequently that one changes I'm not sure how many people watch it.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

{quoted} I know "New" and "Recent" don't filter that way. I believe "Hot" is based around discussion in general, but it's been too long since the server migration post happened for me to be sure of that one.

The only one I'm fairly certain filters on upvotes is "Best", but considering how infrequently that one changes I'm not sure how many people watch it.

"Hot" cares about downvotes. If you look at the hot sort of this forum, you'll find every thread is in the + and most of the top of the sort is highly +.

In particular, I remember the boards feedback megathread being enormously popular and disliked by the community, and it dropped off every filter but, sometimes, "recent". Many posters to boards feedback were confused by this, because the thread with all the red posts about the future of the boards were hard to find, and mods were closing new threads that asked why (that's a whole other story, of course).

Also, the way downvotes behave with comments stifle unpopular but interesting opinions. Here again, we're seeing the effect of using reddit-style sorting without using reddit-style downvotes.

Sybil Cut1 votes

No it isn't. Right from reddit

"Vote. If you think something contributes to conversation, upvote it. If you think it does not contribute to the subreddit it is posted in or is off-topic in a particular community, downvote it."

"Moderate based on quality, not opinion. Well written and interesting content can be worthwhile, even if you disagree with it."

DrCyanide1 votes

Reddit != Boards. Rules for Reddit do not necessarily apply to the Boards.

It seems like Riot does not have a Universal Rule on voting. The Etiquette section varies from sub-board to sub-board. This one includes the following:

Join the discussions with posts about your favorite or least favorite champs, or rant or reason about recent balance changes. Leave questions and feedback for the teams working on champions and gameplay. Most importantly, always vote for posts based on how valuable you think the content is, and mention Teemo as often as possible.

While this particular sub-board mentions voting based on how valuable the content is (not how well written or logical), others do not. It should also be mentioned that this post is not mentioning Teemo as often as possible.

Sybil Cut1 votes

It's more about that this forum was heavily inspired from reddit, where the downvote system is not supposed to be used to tuck away things you disagree with but rather to filter the quality of posts (aka unproductive, off topic, hurtful, redundant)

That being said I apologize sincerely for my transgressions. Teemo

Eyrgos1 votes

Gameplay-wise he's healthier for the game.

Gameplay-wise he's also boring now (his sfx/vfx are AWFUL).

His Ultimate is especially pathetic. Dripping lil rain droplets on people's heads.

He doesn't have that feeling of awesome power from his sfx/vfx anymore, he feels like a wet napkin.

He doesn't need more power gameplay-wise but he needs it in the sfx/vfx department.

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