Okay Riot, you seriously need to change your design and balance philosophy

Espurr VI·11/30/2018, 6:13:57 AM·69 votes·16,247 views

Tldr: Newer champions are overloaded Riot (Meddler) has a dumb excuse why You're not playing the champion. The champion is playing you.

For context, here is what happened:

Player: "I was wondering if your team had considered removing Akali's stealth from towers so that she would be able to get compensation buffs somewhere instead of constantly being nerfed. A lot of Akali players seem to at least be interested in discussing something like that. Would be cool if you guys had any thoughts on her shroud. Edit: She would still retain her obscurity from champions while under turret, but turrets would be able to target and damage her while obscured for example."

Riot Meddler: "That's an ongoing discussion internally right now covering whether this is the sort of unique strength we should be preserving despite its costs or something we should remove because of its downsides, thereby as you say freeing us up to put some power elsewhere. Will update once we've got a conclusion."

Player: "Is this something you could possibly explore with Yasuo as well (considering he's the bane of low elo regardless if he's strong or not)? Sorry to be piggybacking on something about Akali, but both champs share the same situation."

Riot Meddler: "We've had that discussion regarding Yasuo and believe his unique strengths (I'm guessing you're thinking Windwall and/or the E CD?) are worth preserving."

I understand that you want to make Champions unique to play as. Pyke has an execute ulti that gives gold to the last assisting champion. Lulu has polymorph and her ult that makes people huge. Draven is Draaaaaaaaaaaaaaaven.

But. When you give a champion a mechanic that is unique to that champion alone, things can go south really badly if it's done poorly. The biggest example here being Yasuo. Now, I'm not going to go into depth about why Yasuo is a complete failure in champion design. (I can write a 10 page essay on that) I want to go into detail about why it's a bad idea to give champions mechanics that are unique to them.

Back then, in old League, programming for the game was a bit different. The champions had much simpler abilities. Usually they just did damage and had a little upside. For example: Annie's Q did damage, and refunded mana on kill. Pantheon's Q just did damage. Singed's Q led a poison trail. Teemo's Q dealt damage and applied a blind. They were simple. Easy to balance. Easy to maintain. Easy to understand.

Then things started to pick up. Fizz's Q was a dash that applied on hit effects. Varus' Q gave him a lot of range and poke. Lulu's Q was fired from both her and Pix, it also slowed. Riven's Q was cast 3 times. Each cast did damage, dashed a little, and the last dash was a knockup too.

At this point, this didn't get too crazy. They were more complex yes, but not by a large margin.

Then came Yasuo. (I'm using him as an example again, because, well, he's a really good example) Yasuo's Q was treated as a basic attack, it's CD scaled with attack speed, it could crit, it could also knock up on 3rd cast with long range, and it also applies on hit effects.

I know I'm only mentioning Q abilities, but you can compare the overall kits as well.

Annie had the following: A passive that counted up to 5 abilities, the 5th stunning the target. A Q that refunded it's mana cost on kill A W that increased her armor/MR, and had a pseudo thornmail An E that was literally an AoE damage And a summon that had sunfire and would help her fight. It also was an AoE stun if timed.

Pantheon has the following: A passive that blocks a single basic attack or turret shot after he attacks a certain number of times A Q that just does damage A W that deals damage over time, and allows him to crit low HP targets An E that stuns and deals low damage And an R that makes him teleport to a location a ways away

Singed has the following: A passive that converts mana to HP A Q that makes a poison train A W that makes an AoE slow (Or root if used correctly) An E that flung people behind him And an R, which was a flat stat booster

Teemo has the following: A passive that let's him turn invisible if he's still A Q that damages and blinds A W that gives him a small speed boost An E that makes his auto attacks a bit more damage And an R that creates a trap that deals a decent amount of damage over time

Now let's see a some more advanced examples

Fizz had* the following: (I'm using his old kit) A passive that let him walk through minions and take reduced damage from them A Q that was a dash, on hit effects, and also did damage A W that empowered his basic attacks An E that made him untargetable, and could go either a short distance, or a long distance And an R that slowed the target, knocked it up after a delay, damaged it, and could stick to champions if cast right.

Riven has the following A passive that increases her damage on her auto attacks when casting abilities A Q that can be cast 3 times, each being a dash, dealing damage, and the last being a knock up A W that was an AoE stun An E that was a dash and gave her a shield And and R that increased her AD, and could function as an execute as well.

Now let's take that to a champion like Yasuo and Irelia

Yasuo has: A passive that gives him double crit, and a shield whenever he takes a substantial amount of damage A Q that behaves like an auto attack, applies on hit effects, can crit, CD scales with attack speed, and can knock people up on the 3rd cast, with additional range A W that can block projectiles and makes his shield refresh faster An E that can be cast in rapid succession, with the each enemy you hit with it being an illegal target for a longer amount of time And an R that teleported him to a knocked up champion, increasing the knock up by a second, and gave him 50% armor penetration

Irelia has: A passive that increases her damage as she fights, increases her attack speed, and does bonus damage to shields A Q that heals her, applies on hit effects, and refreshes on kill or mark hit A W that reduces damage, gives her a passive stack, and cannot be interrupted An E that creates a blade, and can be cast a second time to create another blade, which makes a line that deals damage and stuns everyone between them And an R that creates a pseudo arena that marks any enemy champion in it so she can dash to them again, deals damage, and if you cross the arena wall you can't auto attack and are slowed.

Notice how overloaded these kits are. There's so many things going on that balancing these champions would a god awful nightmare. (Just look at Jhin!)

Riot, you need to stop one upping each champion in the mechanics department. Just give each champion a unique feel to them. Anivia can be reborn. Annie has an AoE stun with Tibbers, Pantheon can jump around the map and hit people. Enough with these convoluted kits, and even more convoluted "exceptions" for some champions. Yasuo can block projectiles, and becomes invulnerable if he's standing in the wall. Akali has invisibility to TOWERS.

You play champions because you like their play style. Not because they have a "unique strength"

Unique strengths should come from the player, not the champion.

45 Comments

IP Masquerena11/30/2018, 1:21:57 PM13 votes

I'm sorry, but I'd rather have more complex champion than simple ones.

Look at Garen or IAmASonicWannaBeThatWillKillYouWithNoCounterPlayIfIGetCloseToYou aka Udyr.

Garen Q's hits you, spins, W's out and ban, he won the trade, you got no counterplay to that, and also, if you do get more damage on him than he did on you but you don't kill him, he just lets you push while his passive heals him and you're like "wait, what? I won that trade, you're not allowed to change the winner by just afking in xp range"

Then there's Udyr. No skillshots for you to dodge, movespeed that unless you're Talon with 3 available walls, he still gets you and if you can't burst him down before he reaches you, you're dead. You can't outrun him when chasing or running away, you can't duel him unless he's 0-10 and you're 100-0 and all he does is auto you with stuns.

There are many more simple champs that you have nothing you can do against them (Yi, Tryndamere, Jax) and you can't properly nerf them. Why? All they do is damage, you take that away, they're useless, there is no inbetween. You can't say that "just increase the cooldown on Yi's Q/Trynd's W and they will be balanced, as if they can't reach you as easily, they can't kill you" then you realize that they don't need to cast that more than once. You can remove all the resets on their mobility, all they need to do is cast it once for them to kill you, as once they reach you, you're dead. No matter how much utility you remove from them, it doesn't matter, as that utility is trash as it is, all they need is to reach you once and you're dead, so the only nerf you can give them is take away damage, but since that's all they do is damage, then if you take damage away from them, what will they do?

On the other hand, for more complex champions you have room to take away from their power budget to and still allow them to do stuff. Look at Yasuo, you can take away from him W or from his Q via cooldowns, hitboxes, etc, you can reduce from the power of his ult, you have room to take away from his power or utility.

That's why more complex champions are better than simpler ones, because for complex ones, you have more many avenues from which you can take power away, compared to the easy ones where you either take away from the single thing they do, or you do nothing.

Dynikus11/30/2018, 7:06:54 AM13 votes

Your "tl;dr" is incredibly disingenuous, and this whole post just comes off as another of the hundreds/thousands of threads of people that just hate Yasuo.

For an actual tl;dr: A player asked about a reasonable nerf to Akali's W. Meddler said they were exploring options and debating if her true stealth was something she should keep unique to her. The player piggybacked that to ask about Yasuo. Meddler said they feel it's worth preserving parts of his kit that make him unique.

The rest is just cherrypicking champions and twisting descriptions of their kits to make some sound broken.

deadlychuck12/1/2018, 2:24:05 AM5 votes

Then things started to pick up. Fizz's Q was a dash that applied on hit effects. Varus' Q gave him a lot of range and poke. Lulu's Q was fired from both her and Pix, it also slowed. Riven's Q was cast 3 times. Each cast did damage, dashed a little, and the last dash was a knockup too.

I just want to point out another massive shift in design philosophy that has also been a complete nightmare to balance on any champion it's been give... LeeSin and his ability to stagger his abilities' effects. Now I get that this is signature to lee sin, but also look how long he managed to remain absolute top tier jungle meta... like 5 fucking years! Compared to someone like Leona who has just as much on her E as Lee's Q, but doesn't get to decide if she's going to dash to the target after doing damage and rooting the target.

This causes massive balance issues, because it lowers the risk associated with an ability, but more importantly, it makes it so that someone using multi-cast abilities gets to make substantially more precise decisions. It's like playing a game of chess, but one player gets to move 1 piece per turn, while the other player gets twice as many half turns. Following this kind of player pattern, the second player to place a piece on a corner of a square, then the first player moves, then the second player decides which of the two directions they move that piece.

Is it numerically balanced? Sure.... but you're actively removing the agency of the first player, by giving the second player substantially more precision in reacting to the other players moves.

Same with a champion like Thresh

DarkTree111/30/2018, 11:21:59 AM4 votes

good post! i agree with the main message behind it, but i think there are instances where unique mechanics are a part of skill expression in a champion (like ornn's unstoppable on w which got removed and re-added), and then there are instances where unique mechanics make a champion impossible to give a healthy power budget to like yasuo's windwall, akali's shroud or even something like irelia's bladesurge.

also i'm bad enough at yasuo that i wouldn't care if they removed his windwall if it allowed them to balance him properly in other departments

OneMustFall11/30/2018, 1:21:46 PM2 votes

I made it until you mentioned Yasuo. Then I burst out laughing.

C'mon man.

UpDownLeftRightAB12/1/2018, 12:20:53 PM1 votes

I just want to say. Anyone else notice that Annie's W and E wrong in this. Pantheon as well. [sg-miss-fortune]

Handy Sandy 12/1/2018, 6:42:21 PM1 votes

Champions should be designed in the middleground

Syndra is a pretty ok champion, she has counterplay and she can outplay you at the same time. This is because she has little to no safety nets and is skillshot reliant. She feels fair to the player because she gets rewarded for hitting skillshots, and when you die to her you can easily identify why and play around it.

Someone like Annie can't really miss anything, if she's strong then she's oppressive because she has little counterplay. When you die to her, there's nothing else you think other than "She's useless if you have cleanse/Qss, next time fight when it's up."

Someone like Irelia, while she's a more complex champion, she relies on her outplaying herself rather than you outplaying her. When you die to her, there's nothing else you think other than "ok i guess i just shouldn't take 2 steps out of tower range"

Meritas12/2/2018, 3:56:45 AM1 votes

I think that ideally all champions would allow for a high micro play/outplay cap. In that case, especially if damage gets reduced eventually, there would be the potential for very interesting fights, almost in a Mortal Kombat/Street Fighter sense.

The problem with this is that currently there's a huge number of champions that would need a rework to get on this level.

Winterkill12/2/2018, 5:08:32 AM1 votes

I mean, we can talk about this for years. The Developer's work ethic has yet to change and they know this. Instead of actually working on mistakes they made, champions that really need it, and older champions . . . .the Developers take abilities from older champions, don't rework older champions, don't rework problem champions, and actually make new champions with older champion themes and abilities. No matter how you look at this, it all boils down to Developers not giving two craps about their mistakes and older champions. Ryze was prioritized for 7/8 reworks and VGU, Ezreal was prioritized for a mini-VGU, Ahria and Lux received 4 to 5 months worth of work to rework their kits. No other champion that these Developers have ruined has received the type of work ethic these Developers give new champions and popular ones.

There is 75% of the champion pool that is outdated with art, their kits, themes, and identities. It's kind of annoying when you see a walking tree with a Shield Bomb that belonged on another champion, but was removed for no reason on the original champion and the replacement is something that already exists in the game as an item active. It's really annoying to see a certain new champion have the identity of another champion that isa trickster, but the original champion with that identity is ignored.

Let's just all come to the conclusion that instead of actually improving and working on updating all things in this game, Developers are more worried about adding new champions and new mechanics that break the game. Look at all the change they tried to do this year and it back fired on them . . . when all these Developers had to do was listen to the community and actually give us a stable game. Look at how many players are upset that their champions are constantly being ignored for substantial work, but Developers are talking about a new champion or a popular one that is being prioritized for everything. The Developers care too much about keeping the game fresh and adding new content instead of revitalizing things that are already beloved about the game.

L9 Princess Paru11/30/2018, 2:40:09 PM1 votes

Remove Akali W Tower Invunerablity more or less, Buff R CD early to late or increase Q dmg on Champs.

Arìes Wínd12/1/2018, 5:19:47 AM1 votes

I got baited i started reading expecting something not mainstream now i see an other salty player to Yasuo YIKES ITS NOT 2016 ALREADY, yasuo is yasuo, despite being hard to deal with there is FARR more Cancer champions than him and he has clear counterplay. Grow up.

Critmaster Garen12/1/2018, 6:12:15 AM1 votes

yasuo is not a failed champion design. for a melee carry he does exactly what hes supposed to, and hes a huge success.

there are so many anti melee mechanics in this game (mostly displacements on a ton of champions), and you complain about one of the very very few anti range mechanics?

i cant fight vayne or tristana on my own with a lot of melee champions, because its literally impossible for me to get in range of them and stick, because of their mobility and point and click disengages. there are very few scenarios where you can possibly win against these champions with slower melee carries.

accept that you cant fight a yasuo with a lot of ranged champions on your own either, and you need team support to fight him, just as i need team support on my champions to fight a vayne or tristana.

the only thing in yasuos kit that can be problematic is his double crit passive. because it makes him cap out with 2 crit items, which means he has 3 more item slots to build relatively tanky and become beefier than he should be.

but that is the ONLY design issue the champion has.

3TWarrior12/1/2018, 6:18:37 AM1 votes

that's an interesting concept. Making her untargetable, even invisible to champs but not immune to turret shots seems very unique. It still follows the rules of the game, the turret shots would show her overall location, and would give her these "windows of power" that have been discussed previously

that seems much more healthy than just untargetable by everything and immune to turrets