I cant believe it’s an unpopular opinion now, but riot should continue balancing around pro play.

HateDaddy·10/17/2019, 1:44:16 PM·20 votes·5,028 views

It seems like players have become so cynical and jaded by this game that they don’t realize a few crucial points, simple as they may be. Although solo queue games, especially those at lower ranks, are vastly different than pro play, the reality is that any “meta” you play in was likely defined by pro play. It most likely began in high elo as a form of practice, where it becomes refined. Then it is debuted in professional play. And after that, it trickles it’s way into the rest of the elo range as time goes on. Low elo doesn’t like hearing this, but by the time a meta reaches your range from pro play it’s already dead and gone in high/elo as they’ve moved onto the next flavor of the month.

Secondly, we should never ever balance the game around low elo. Let’s not mince words here, though I’m not trying to be crass or make generalizations: low elo players are not good at this game. And for that reason, we should never balance around, or even consider balancing around, an elo range that will never adapt to its surroundings for the sake of improving because they simply do not have the capacity to. Those who improve simply rise out of that range, so all you’d do by balancing around low elo in any form is reset the bar to a higher level for bad players to expect game changes to be catered to them so they can continue to play poorly without improving. I realize this is harsh, but it is absolute truth. There’s nothing wrong with not being good at this game. For the vast majority that play this game, it’s never going to be something you put on your job application or use as some source for cash - being bad is totally fine. As long as you enjoy the game, that’s all that should matter. So likewise, any person that flanes you for being bad is just a self-centered delusional jerk because just like you (the bad player), they won’t be able to use league of legends in any real avenue in life.

With that said, two things can still be true at once. Just because Riot balances around pro doesn’t mean they shouldn’t consider solo queue. They absolutely should, but the balancing should still be heavily influenced by pro play and high elo play. Likewise, it is still totally okay for the community to express dislike for the game and standards (for example, tanks being worthless in solo queue but often being OP in pro play). That isn’t, however, an issue with pro play. That’s an issue with riot standardizing how they want the game to be played, which I cannot deny is influenced by pro play, but that doesn’t mean we abandon the idea of balancing around pro play because of that. The alternative is much worse. Thus, instead, the tema of our conversation should focus around riot adjusting conceptual gameplay aspects - such as make tanks more reliable in solo queue as tanks, not to be some pseudo-bruiser. That way, our conversation is actually progressive and comprehensive, rather than wild accusations and shameless finger pointing that doesn’t offer any real insight. I know the community likes to think riot ignores them, and riot probably does. But if I’m being honest, I would too because most of the feedback here is trash and upvote spam. So for that reason, this is why I offered these explanations not only to voice my opinion - which I believe to be a critical element of game balance - but also to realize that the our feedback often sucks and should be better.

29 Comments

Moody P10/17/2019, 4:17:39 PM8 votes

This would be fine if they gave us the opportunity to coordinate the way pro players can, and if they were actually intent on balancing every champion around a clear metric of viability for pro play, but they don't do either so the experience gets heavily lopsided

Xintium10/17/2019, 5:31:18 PM4 votes

There is a deeper problem: pro-play and SoloQ are different games. They happen to share visuals and some gameplay features. But that's it. In an ideal world, balancing around pro-play would work optimally, since "SoloQ" would simply not exist and be entirely substituted by Ranked Premade5, with vocal chat, and a coach teaching the players macro-game concepts. But this is just a hypothetical, no more.

Some champions are too team-relient to work in SoloQ, but they are OP when pros use them. Other champions are very effective in SoloQ, but have little impact on pro-play. This is essentially unfixable.

This is a case where Riot stands in a precarious position: on one hand, Riot needs to balance for the majority of the players, not to alienate/frustrate them, ultimately driving them away, which would lead to economical disaster. On ther other hand, Riot needs to balance for pro-play in order to avoid pro-play becoming stagnant, boring... and also an economic failure (no one would buy tickets anymore if pro-play matches were all essentially equal to each other).

In a certain sense, they need to balance for both. But this may lead to conflicting goals and you run the risk of making everyone unhappy.

Malix Farwin10/17/2019, 4:06:14 PM4 votes

Can't really balance around pro play because its inherently a completely different beast the level or coordinated play is non existent in soloq, even at the very top. People are practicing team comps vs. soloq where sometimes you get a proper team comp and sometimes you do not and even when you do its not practiced.

preternatural10/17/2019, 3:21:20 PM4 votes

agree 90% of balance changes should be directed at the top end of competitive play. the other 10% can go to persistent low mmr problems if there even are any.

Sinister Anubis10/17/2019, 1:54:19 PM2 votes

{quoted}

It seems like players have become so cynical and jaded by this game that they don’t realize a few crucial points, simple as they may be. Although solo queue games, especially those at lower ranks, are vastly different than pro play, the reality is that any “meta” you play in was likely defined by pro play. It most likely began in high elo as a form of practice, where it becomes refined. Then it is debuted in professional play. And after that, it trickles it’s way into the rest of the elo range as time goes on. Low elo doesn’t like hearing this, but by the time a meta reaches your range from pro play it’s already dead and gone in high/elo as they’ve moved onto the next flavor of the month.

Secondly, we should never ever balance the game around low elo. Let’s not mince words here, though I’m not trying to be crass or make generalizations: low elo players are not good at this game. And for that reason, we should never balance around, or even consider balancing around, an elo range that will never adapt to its surroundings for the sake of improving because they simply do not have the capacity to. Those who improve simply rise out of that range, so all you’d do by balancing around low elo in any form is reset the bar to a higher level for bad players to expect game changes to be catered to them so they can continue to play poorly without improving. I realize this is harsh, but it is absolute truth. There’s nothing wrong with not being good at this game. For the vast majority that play this game, it’s never going to be something you put on your job application or use as some source for cash - being bad is totally fine. As long as you enjoy the game, that’s all that should matter. So likewise, any person that flanes you for being bad is just a self-centered delusional jerk because just like you (the bad player), they won’t be able to use league of legends in any real avenue in life.

With that said, two things can still be true at once. Just because Riot balances around pro doesn’t mean they shouldn’t consider solo queue. They absolutely should, but the balancing should still be heavily influenced by pro play and high elo play. Likewise, it is still totally okay for the community to express dislike for the game and standards (for example, tanks being worthless in solo queue but often being OP in pro play). That isn’t, however, an issue with pro play. That’s an issue with riot standardizing how they want the game to be played, which I cannot deny is influenced by pro play, but that doesn’t mean we abandon the idea of balancing around pro play because of that. The alternative is much worse. Thus, instead, the tema of our conversation should focus around riot adjusting conceptual gameplay aspects - such as make tanks more reliable in solo queue as tanks, not to be some pseudo-bruiser. That way, our conversation is actually progressive and comprehensive, rather than wild accusations and shameless finger pointing that doesn’t offer any real insight. I know the community likes to think riot ignores them, and riot probably does. But if I’m being honest, I would too because most of the feedback here is trash and upvote spam. So for that reason, this is why I offered these explanations not only to voice my opinion - which I believe to be a critical element of game balance - but also to realize that the our feedback often sucks and should be better.

Been here since season one and I agree. No game should be balanced around low level players even if it is the majority. The fact of the matter is they complain about champions they cant beat and they cant beat that champion because well they just arnt good enough to pick a counter or adapt their play style. The reality is all across the world high level play has their own quote cancer champions they hate dealing with like in korea they hate Ivern. In the US it's been yasuo etc etc. Not every region will react to the same balance changes. Back in season 1 there was no meta, until we saw worlds and all of a sudden we have the birth of support adc bot lane 2 solo lanes and a jungler. Who would of thought this is how the game will be played. Now nearly 10 years later the meta hasn't changed all that much we still have support adc bot 2 solo laners and a Jungler all birthed from pro play.

uNhoLeee10/17/2019, 3:07:29 PM2 votes

the caveat that they balance around pro-play is wrong. they dont even have a balance team. they use to test changes on PBE, now they just chuck them live without bothering and see the consequences real time.

Titanium7010/17/2019, 3:28:24 PM2 votes

Balancing around Pro is just as wrong as balaning around LowElo.

You cut down runaways, it's simple as that. A champ wins/is picked /is banned in every pro game. Nerf it! A champ wins/is picked(is banned in every silver game? Nerf IT!

it's really not that hard... and yet...

I see Akali every freaking game at pro.. it's boring beyond any believe! And for some reason she still is running around! Zed Yasuo Pyke swing between 40% and 70% banrate for ages now (depending on what else is broken on patch) accross all elos, most obviously hated by huge parts of the community, noone has fun playing against them, yet still they're nearly untouched!

Kovorix10/18/2019, 3:37:41 PM2 votes

Just that pro play and league are 2 different games. It's like balancing in cod exactly the same like in bf.

Linna Excel10/18/2019, 4:52:08 PM2 votes

I prefer the days when riot split the two and balanced around high plat... or low diamond in this season's ranks. I think what made this game popular and accessible is that unlike dotas where everything is balanced around pros, and some others where everything was dumbed down, league tried to straddle the line between no skill expression and too volatile skill expression (champs being useless if you aren't a 300 game main).

Basically we need more champs that are partway between soraka and riven.

JimTheSnail10/18/2019, 1:33:03 PM1 votes

They do balance around pro play. They also balance around low elo. You do not make money outing the majority of your player base by letting OP stuff in low elo stay OP. It scares away new players, messes with ranked, and it makes the game generally no fun. Riot didn't not nerf Riven due to low elo but instead due to high elo and pro play. She is fun to watch out play the enemy team, 1v9, etc. That is why teemo is okay but definitely not good, why skarner is generally bad in solo but amazing in pro, etc. You have to accept that the 2 have different metas yes. But Riot (in theory) is doing their best to close that gap. They also don't want the game be around your ability to play high skill champs such as Riven, Quiyanna, Vayne, Kalista.

NemeBro10/21/2019, 4:42:06 AM1 votes

{quoted}

It seems like players have become so cynical and jaded by this game that they don’t realize a few crucial points, simple as they may be. Although solo queue games, especially those at lower ranks, are vastly different than pro play, the reality is that any “meta” you play in was likely defined by pro play. It most likely began in high elo as a form of practice, where it becomes refined. Then it is debuted in professional play. And after that, it trickles it’s way into the rest of the elo range as time goes on. Low elo doesn’t like hearing this, but by the time a meta reaches your range from pro play it’s already dead and gone in high/elo as they’ve moved onto the next flavor of the month.

Secondly, we should never ever balance the game around low elo. Let’s not mince words here, though I’m not trying to be crass or make generalizations: low elo players are not good at this game. And for that reason, we should never balance around, or even consider balancing around, an elo range that will never adapt to its surroundings for the sake of improving because they simply do not have the capacity to. Those who improve simply rise out of that range, so all you’d do by balancing around low elo in any form is reset the bar to a higher level for bad players to expect game changes to be catered to them so they can continue to play poorly without improving. I realize this is harsh, but it is absolute truth. There’s nothing wrong with not being good at this game. For the vast majority that play this game, it’s never going to be something you put on your job application or use as some source for cash - being bad is totally fine. As long as you enjoy the game, that’s all that should matter. So likewise, any person that flanes you for being bad is just a self-centered delusional jerk because just like you (the bad player), they won’t be able to use league of legends in any real avenue in life.

With that said, two things can still be true at once. Just because Riot balances around pro doesn’t mean they shouldn’t consider solo queue. They absolutely should, but the balancing should still be heavily influenced by pro play and high elo play. Likewise, it is still totally okay for the community to express dislike for the game and standards (for example, tanks being worthless in solo queue but often being OP in pro play). That isn’t, however, an issue with pro play. That’s an issue with riot standardizing how they want the game to be played, which I cannot deny is influenced by pro play, but that doesn’t mean we abandon the idea of balancing around pro play because of that. The alternative is much worse. Thus, instead, the tema of our conversation should focus around riot adjusting conceptual gameplay aspects - such as make tanks more reliable in solo queue as tanks, not to be some pseudo-bruiser. That way, our conversation is actually progressive and comprehensive, rather than wild accusations and shameless finger pointing that doesn’t offer any real insight. I know the community likes to think riot ignores them, and riot probably does. But if I’m being honest, I would too because most of the feedback here is trash and upvote spam. So for that reason, this is why I offered these explanations not only to voice my opinion - which I believe to be a critical element of game balance - but also to realize that the our feedback often sucks and should be better.

I agree, buff Tryndamere so he can be played in pro.

HeeroTX10/18/2019, 4:07:10 PM1 votes

If a yolo-q team of Challengers (with no trolls) can beat a yolo-q team of Platinum, with any (reasonable) assortment of champs (ie. not 5 enchanters) then the game is "balanced". If the Plats can beat a "weak" (but reasonable) comp with several "OP" champs, then the game is not balanced. OTOH, if 5 challengers can stomp 5 other challengers, that in and of itself is not a "balance" issue. Something can be strong within a single tier and still be beatable. But if something is strong enough to allow someone to play beyond their appropriate tier, then that's a balance problem.

That said, balancing around pro-play is DUMB (and wrong). Balancing around pro-play is like balancing soccer around the EPL and then forcing amateurs to play with blinders on (rando solo-q vs. consistent, well-practiced teammates) and shackles on your feet of varying weights totally randomized between players (ping variance). The more appropriate course of action is balancing the game around mid/high elo and then adjusting the RULES of pro-play to account for issues. Pro-games are not played for FUN and so even devoid of technical differences, balancing around that is a bad choice for a GAME. (many sports have adjustments for the pro level that are ONLY applicable to the pros, for example pro baseball players can't use aluminum bats)

xMisuto10/17/2019, 3:13:30 PM1 votes

They should alsays balance around pro play!

Riven (somewhere in the history of patches) is best example, deadly in high soloq, trash in low elo yet they dont nerf it (took years to nerf) because low elo doesnt have the same winrates! This is bad since riven is super overpowered when played well but nerfs would make it unplayable in low elo... They are scared to hurt the low elo players over balance...

Saevum10/18/2019, 5:56:41 AM1 votes

Which brings us back to Dunkey's video.

"Please understand this, Pro League of legends has nothing to do with real league of legends". -Dunkey

He pointed out some serious sht at that time. And the sad part is that it is still happening today.


But following the Thread, it is right. You should always aim at balancing around at the best case scenario where a champion potential is fully displayed. The closest we have to those scenarios is Masters+ and proplay. With proplay be like even more detailed in what kind of cheese strat the teams can come up with besides Solo Q.

But as some other users already stated: "Riot cannot balance league without making their mind on what side they are gonna take". They can't balance around 2 audiences. They gotta stick with one, and high elo would be the best measure. Otherwise, we would have broken champions everywhere.. oh wait...