On giving ADCs interesting and interactive items, consider this change to Phantom Dancer

Clox4··1 votes·797 views

EDIT: Yeah I'm done responding to comments here. Nobody wants to make a single reference to the content of the original post. Everyone would rather argue about how ADCs are fine and don't need to be changed {Funny considering that Riot has already revealed they're reworking the ADC class}

As it turns out, we'll be getting item changes this next pre-season for ADCs. Hopefully these changes tone down or even remove raw stats items like Infinity Edge to make room for interesting and interactive ADC items, for instance items that reward stutter steppers like Shiv, Furor's, Phage. I'm hoping that Riot will consider creating some sort of item with an interactive active that will be useful for ADCs with less-interactive, immobile kits (Kits like Twitch's and Kog's are pretty straight-forward and both are highly immobile).

A decent starting point I've seen mentioned on the reddit was an item with an active that allowed you to warp to a unit, similar to flash but requiring a target. A concern I've had with such an idea is, unless marked "ranged champions only" which I feel like is an easy way out for item design rather than an intuitive one, is that melee champions would build the item to gap close. I then propose the active wording:

On use, warp to target non-neutral unit that is within your attack range (or even half attack range). (with some long cooldown like 2-3+ minutes)

Obviously with such wording, only ranged champions would build such an item. Even then, how often would an ADC want to gap close to a target they'd most likely rather be kiting? This item would not save bad ADCs from their bad map awareness, but WOULD award smart ADCs and teams that always ensure there is a target the ADC can warp to for safety mid-fight and reward the ADC who didn't need to reposition with it midfight with a powerful clean-up gapcloser. This item would allow champions like Twitch and Kog'maw to make some crazy outplays, for instance imagine using this passive to dodge an Ezreal ult by warping to a minion behind him at just the right time? And giving it a long cooldown means smart use of it could easily be distinguished from a waste of it to make up for bad positioning in the first place. Finally, players attempting to kill an ADC with such an active would be rewarded for smart positioning and predicting where the ADC would warp to.

Then to ensure it's only used by ranged AD champions rather than ranged mages, you put stats that only ADC champs would want. Things like AD, attack speed, crit chance etc. But let's be fair, that passive would be pretty killer in the early game. You'd have ADCs closing crazy gaps against enemy ADCs in lane, or ADCs using it to escape crazy distances in early game lane fights where they should have died for poor play. In a 35 minute game, even getting something like this as early as 12 minutes with a 2 minute cooldown will get a lot of value over the game duration. So we need to make sure such an active is only really available to the ADC in mid to late game. Making the item expensive is one thing, which is fine because ADCs build to prioritize slot-efficiency, but making the item too expensive means it will probably lose out to raw damage items, as utility is meaningless to an ADC that doesn't have damage to begin with (this is why ADCs who build a full defense item before finishing their core damage items are guaranteed to fail). So let's make this item somewhat expensive but not IE expensive, and give it stats that are useless unless you already have damage in the first place. Wait, this is starting to sound like another item already in the game, isn't it?

The phantom dancer is usually the go-to attack speed+crit item for ADCs that can live without the shiv passive, and let's be fair: while its passive (Can walk through units) is only situationally useful for ADCs, it is ALWAYS useful for melee champions trying to close a gap. This passive doesn't quite fit on an ADC item, so what if we gave Phantom Dancer this new active instead? It fits the theming of a "dancing phantom", gives stats that only benefit its owner if another damage item is purchased first, and would require at least 7.5k farmed gold (IE+boots+PD) before having access to such a useful active with outplay potential.

Lastly we can't ignore that champions that already have free escapes like Corki and Ezreal would be likely to buy such an item, giving them a free escape, a target unit warp, and their flash. I would not even recommend adding such an item to the current state of the game, unless it is accompanied with the entire ADC itemization overhaul. The new items should give champions like Ezreal at least 5 options that could be much more beneficial than another repositioning tool. I could write an entire book on possible new ADC items such as items with a small turret DoT on-hit, items that gain power when allied champions are nearby, etc, but here I want to just focus on what I've already mentioned.

tl;dr with the ADC item rework give Phantom Dancer an interactive repositioning active that allows smart players to stand out even on ADCs with non-interactive kits

21 Comments

Ecodeath1 votes

as an adc main i love to auto people to death

nty

Clox41 votes

as an adc main i don't understand how this change would mean any less autoing of people to death?

Ecodeath1 votes

{quoted}

as an adc main i don't understand how this change would mean any less autoing of people to death?

sorry dont have time to read post through

Clox41 votes

so you have no idea what the post is even about and insist on forming an opinion on it nice

Ecodeath1 votes

{quoted}

so you have no idea what the post is even about and insist on forming an opinion on it nice

ur not gonna put a tldr then flame me? -1

Clox41 votes

{quoted}

ur not gonna put a tldr then flame me? -1

{quoted} tl;dr with the ADC item rework give Phantom Dancer an interactive repositioning active that allows smart players to stand out even on ADCs with non-interactive kits

literally right in the post. Unedited. You couldn't even read that. -1

Ecodeath3 votes

{quoted}

literally right in the post. Unedited. You couldn't even read that. -1

cant see it, dont read it

+1

GinoSoldier1 votes

Can we simply either remove crit from the game or at least the RNG part of it? Mages like Soraka, Karthus and Anivia's 'crits' i feel are the right way to go. Give all ADCs and a few melee carries X conditions for landing a crit, and scale that crit's damage accordingly with the requirements and itemization. Examples would be Caitlyn's head shot passive, Tristana's E bomb, Sivir's E buffed auto attacks, Varus', Kalista's and Twitch's passive stacks, Vayne's Silver bolts, Quinn and Valor's Harrier, etc... Once that's done, and luck is removed from the game, then we can talk about smart itemization to give ADCs some more pizzazz.

Among other things, i want Manamune to be made viable early for AD champions who aim at abusing their mana pools, like Jinx. The Jinx Rocket Build is fun and should be a thing, however it can't currently compete because crit overrules everything for AA based ADCs except Botrk that serves usually as a Swiss-army knife complement, which is really sad and boring. Either that, or if riot doesn't want to touch the item itself, add some bonus mana scaling to the damage dealt by Jinx's rockets, please, so the build can be viable from early to late.

I think lifesteal needs a cap (20-25%), and ADC mobility needs to be either reduced, or their self kiting/chasing potential reduced. (Looking at Botrk's active right now.)

Lastly, i would let ranged ADCs have crit but remove all non-kit options for armor penetration from ADCs. Tank busting should go to fighters and melee carries, who in turn would be deprived of crit chance. ADCs right now just bust everything up which is bad for meta diversity because it creates a stale environment in which they absolutely must exist.

Clox41 votes

ADCs are busting everything up? What game are you playing?

GinoSoldier1 votes

{quoted}

ADCs are busting everything up? What game are you playing?

League of Legends.

While i recognize that Tanks right now are doing pretty well for themselves, and some tanky fighters/juggernauts can usually face them off rather evenly. However, and especially once ahead, anything that doesn't have 2500+health and at least one armor item tends to be a free kill within a second or two if you get caught, and i don't call that fun. TBH if league were left to me, everything would be about five to ten times harder to kill just because getting instantly blown up, or knowing you have no chance of surviving is absolutely not fun. Mages at least have their damage gated by cooldowns despite being potentially higher or have good area of effect.

Still waiting for a response for everything else other than that one-liner you singled out for some reason.

Also, something i forgot to add; i hate having too many item actives. maybe it's just me, but the more these things are available, the more all champions who builds these items become the same and stale. Methinks each build in the game should at most have two, with Supports being a 'maybe' exception. But then i could rant for an hour about supports and how they're perceived, and their itemization.

Clox41 votes

{quoted}

Can we simply either remove crit from the game or at least the RNG part of it? Mages like Soraka, Karthus and Anivia's 'crits' i feel are the right way to go. Give all ADCs and a few melee carries X conditions for landing a crit, and scale that crit's damage accordingly with the requirements and itemization. Examples would be Caitlyn's head shot passive, Tristana's E bomb, Sivir's E buffed auto attacks, Varus', Kalista's and Twitch's passive stacks, Vayne's Silver bolts, Quinn and Valor's Harrier, etc... Once that's done, and luck is removed from the game, then we can talk about smart itemization to give ADCs some more pizzazz.

Why should I comment on this. It's irrelevant to what I'm talking about here. ADC itemization is already being worked on. As my opinion on crit is just "since it's the only build option available everyone is forced to RNG DPS". I don't see why the existence of crit means ADCs shouldn't get items

Among other things, i want Manamune to be made viable early for AD champions who aim at abusing their mana pools, like Jinx. The Jinx Rocket Build is fun and should be a thing, however it can't currently compete because crit overrules everything for AA based ADCs except Botrk that serves usually as a Swiss-army knife complement, which is really sad and boring. Either that, or if riot doesn't want to touch the item itself, add some bonus mana scaling to the damage dealt by Jinx's rockets, please, so the build can be viable from early to late.

ok?

I think lifesteal needs a cap (20-25%), and ADC mobility needs to be either reduced, or their self kiting/chasing potential reduced. (Looking at Botrk's active right now.)

Or give us back grievous wounds which is exactly what they're doing. You don't cap any stat other than attack speed, why cap lifesteal? Why reduce their kiting? They already die in a few seconds from champions who build nothing but defense items. I'm still not convinced you're playing League of Legends

Lastly, i would let ranged ADCs have crit but remove all non-kit options for armor penetration from ADCs. Tank busting should go to fighters and melee carries, who in turn would be deprived of crit chance. ADCs right now just bust everything up which is bad for meta diversity because it creates a stale environment in which they absolutely must exist.

ADCs are literally the single class that is supposed to kill tanks. Not fighters. Not "melee carries". Not mages or supports, but absolutely only the ADC. This is basic game knowledge. But they can't even do that because full-defense stackers can kill them faster than they can shred 25% of their hp. ADCs are always going to exist in pro meta because you NEED the range to destroy turrets. But for casual play, not only are ranged ADCs NOT required (Mordekaiser, Yasuo), they are an absolute chore to play. I have no idea why I'm discussing this with you here in this thread. Your point was absolutely off-topic.

While i recognize that Tanks right now are doing pretty well for themselves, and some tanky fighters/juggernauts can usually face them off rather evenly. However, and especially once ahead, anything that doesn't have 2500+health and at least one armor item tends to be a free kill within a second or two if you get caught, and i don't call that fun. TBH if league were left to me, everything would be about five to ten times harder to kill just because getting instantly blown up, or knowing you have no chance of surviving is absolutely not fun. Mages at least have their damage gated by cooldowns despite being potentially higher or have good area of effect.

If you "hate being blown up instantly" then you are either playing support or a class that can also "blow someone up instantly", and you certainly aren't playing ADC from what you believe the ADC class is. I suggest you play a tank if you don't like getting blown up instantly: that is what half of this game is.

Also, something i forgot to add; i hate having too many item actives. maybe it's just me, but the more these things are available, the more all champions who builds these items become the same and stale. Methinks each build in the game should at most have two, with Supports being a 'maybe' exception. But then i could rant for an hour about supports and how they're perceived, and their itemization.

Good for you. Don't build active items. Active items aren't perfectly better than items with passives like you're essentially claiming they are.

SEKAI1 votes

Build active items like Scrimtar, or other ones with interesting passive like Maw for a change.

Clox41 votes

Maw is AWFUL on ADC. If we "lose health" we're already dead. It's an absolute waste of an item on ADC. It is much more suited for tanky AD champions. Scimitar is not an interactive active. Get stunned use scimitar. That's it.

SEKAI1 votes

{quoted}

Maw is AWFUL on ADC. If we "lose health" we're already dead. It's an absolute waste of an item on ADC. It is much more suited for tanky AD champions. Scimitar is not an interactive active. Get stunned use scimitar. That's it.

And the funny thing is that, the reason why ADCs die so fast is that all of them refuse to buy any kind of defence for whatever reason. Do you even wonder why you get 1 shotted when you have 0 armour, HP and MR?

Unless you're facerolling, otherwise always consider the chances that you might need a def/offen hybrid item or 2.

Clox41 votes

ADCs are not asking to be less squishy. ADCs are not asking to deal more damage. You are assuming a lot.

SEKAI1 votes

{quoted}

ADCs are not asking to be less squishy. ADCs are not asking to deal more damage. You are assuming a lot.

Not really, I am saying you should always plan on buying hybrid/active items that might not be very superior in a particular field, because a bit of everything still helps you with a bit of everything. So you at least won't get owned the instant someone touches you.

Hence when you are not just rolling your face and receive penta, consider the possibility of buying a Scrimitar, a Maw, a FM, etc etc.

Clox41 votes

{quoted}

Not really, I am saying you should always plan on buying hybrid/active items that might not be very superior in a particular field, because a bit of everything still helps you with a bit of everything. So you at least won't get owned the instant someone touches you.

Hence when you are not just rolling your face and receive penta, consider the possibility of buying a Scrimitar, a Maw, a FM, etc etc.

If you build defense before finishing your core build, then you're less squishy and also useless because your damage is awful! You're basically a worse tank with mediocre cc if any at all.

SEKAI1 votes

{quoted}

If you build defense before finishing your core build, then you're less squishy and also useless because your damage is awful! You're basically a worse tank with mediocre cc if any at all.

If your opponents finish their core way before you get yours, go to plan B since plan A has already failed. You will not do tons of damage, but at least you won't die in an instant.

You can always go back to it once you have you picked yourself up.

Clox41 votes

{quoted}

If your opponents finish their core way before you get yours, go to plan B since plan A has already failed. You will not do tons of damage, but at least you won't die in an instant.

You can always go back to it once you have you picked yourself up.

Plan B is "farm to relevance", not "be useless for the rest of the game" I don't even know why I'm arguing this with you This is never a problem I encounter

SEKAI1 votes

{quoted}

Plan B is "farm to relevance", not "be useless for the rest of the game" I don't even know why I'm arguing this with you This is never a problem I encounter

You know you can sell items right?

You can buy def items when the terms are against you, sell them to buy the goodies when they are with you once more. Just don't do it for every single item and it's a viable tatic.

Staying outside and farm only half works, because you would be running around picking left overs which is very inefficient, you would still die in a second horribly whenever someone decides to dive you, and you would also be out of the major actions when you're busy binging around making the gap even bigger to fix.

Farm plan B more or less only works when the gap isn't big (such as when enemy bot had destroyed your turret but theirs is still up), otherwise just get a def/active hybrid item and get going.

Clox41 votes

Why are you still talking about things you know absolutely nothing about

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