@Riot - The Main Reason Why Cassiopeia's Stacking Passive will Never Work

Smartsize·11/7/2014, 1:21:50 AM·39 votes·10,176 views

EDIT

Stashu just stickied a thread with a little more specific, number based information! Find it here: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/1jXwf2BP-latest-on-cassiopeia


Yes, I'm posting yet another Cassiopeia thread. There have been about a million in the last week or so ever since Stashu's post explained some of the things they planned to do with new Cassiopeia to make her better. This has received both positive and negative feedback, but I wanted to explain why I think Cassiopeia, in this current iteration, will NEVER work as intended, or in a way that is fun for the player.

Essentially, it boils down to the way her passive stacks. In the proposed changes, it gains 1 per 6 seconds and 1 per second an enemy is poisoned, with a proposed cap of 500. At certain benchmarks, currently 75, 200, and then 400, she gains bonuses to her AP and buffs to her abilities. This, in itself, is a fine idea, especially if they want to make a late-game APC that is focused on dealing damage and building squishy. However, the way they made the bonuses work is fundamentally flawed.

Essentially, in order for Cassiopeia's passive to be balanced, it must be under-tuned purposefully. This is because of the way she gains bonuses through her passive: those tiered "benchmarks" of stacks which then grant all of their bonuses immediately. In this way, Cassiopeia is useless from 0-74 stacks, has a very weak heal and AP buff from 75-199 stacks, and then has a buff to her cooldowns from 200-399 stacks, and then finally reaches her ultimate potential, when she receives a massive 30% AP bonus.

The problem with this lies in counterplay. Particularly in lane, in order for an opponent to be able to adapt to the bonuses a stacking character gets, they must be balanced in a way that doesn't surprise them. This is why Veigar, Sion and Nasus' stacking passives work so well: they give minuscule buffs that compound over time into something gigantic. This way, it is fair for both players: the player gets to feel their power building gradually over the game, resulting in a massive power bank at the end, yet the opponent is able to predict and counter their power spikes because of their gradual nature. Cassiopeia's passive takes this idea and murders it. Rather than being a gradual power increase, her passive's power stays the exact same until their benchmark is reached. Once it is, she instantly receives large buffs to both her damage and even the way her abilities work. This situation, where Cassiopeia is allowed to gain a massive power bonus all at once, without any visual or statistical keys to indicate counterplay opportunities, is what makes Cassiopeia's passive a broken mechanic.

Now, I'm not saying Cassiopeia's passive is OP. Almost every single Cassiopeia player, myself included, absolutely despises the new passive because it's such a chore to stack. The reason it feels as if the passive is a chore is because, in order to be balanced, its tiered benchmark stacking bonuses MUST be weak enough for the opponent not to get suddenly overwhelmed. Basically, you can assign ANY numbers larger than the ones on Live, or different mechanics they can add to abilities at certain stacks, and they have to potential to be completely broken on her, simply because she gains these bonuses all at once instead of over time. If Cassiopeia received her bonuses similar to Veigar and Nasus, they could potentially be bigger or more impactful because the opponent would constantly be able to check her power level. However, in its current state, they can't. The numbers and mechanics on her passive must be purposefully lowered for the sake of readability and balance. In a balanced state, Cassiopeia's tiered, "lump-sum" stacking mechanic has to be unrewarding for the player in order to create counterplay.

This is why HIGHLY urge Riot to listen to the constructive criticisms of the current iteration of Cassiopeia. Almost all the complaints about her are how E-central her kit is, and how horrible her passive is as a mechanic. I think a great portion could be solved by AT LEAST changing the way Cassiopeia receives her stat bonuses, but IDEALLY by recreating a simpler passive which works across ALL areas of her kit, not just her E.

Please don't attempt to make a broken mechanic work just because it's unique. Riot will never be able to make a reworked Cassiopeia that EVERYBODY likes, but they can create one that MOST people like, and a great start is to rework the wonky passive that forced the rest of her kit to change completely.

52 Comments

Jamnon11/7/2014, 1:42:13 AM16 votes

See, it's even worse then that, man. Another glaring issue with this "gated" kit:

If her late game is so strong, her early game / laning phase would have to be weak to balance it.

The whole gated idea is itself, flawed.

Sweetie Brella11/7/2014, 2:46:57 AM8 votes

In my opinion, what the passive really needs is some kind of meaningful upfront benefit. As it is, the CDR only puts her back where she was before rework, the on hit heal takes way too long to make any kind of difference, and the AP requires a huge amount of investment to get any real benefit. We already spent a huge amount of time and took a lot of risks getting those stacks, why should we have to build around it as well?

That's what makes the other "hyper scalers" better, the fact their bonuses benefit you the moment you get them, not to mention the inherent synergy with the rest of their kits. Cass spends all that time getting stacks to be half way to a disappointing payoff.

Serpents Embrace11/7/2014, 3:20:12 AM7 votes

Don't feel bad about posting more Cassiopeia threads.

Ignoring the real problems with the rework and tinkering around with random, weak ideas on PBE is just placation. It's an attempt to get people to get frustrated and move on. Continuing to post threads like this that outline the problems and frame the reasons of the player base's discontent is important to get past this phase of dev stalling.

Wullf11/7/2014, 7:56:18 AM6 votes

Main problem imo is that Cass has state of "fully stacked". So Cass has to reach her fully stack state to use her full potential. For that, top lane is much better because you can go "afk farming" there. That is what you cannot do in midlane.

Other stacking champions does not have that state, they can stack ethernaly and so can they stop anytime they want.

AFK Push11/7/2014, 2:03:23 AM6 votes

I actually had this same idea earlier thinking of why it can't be more like veiger's q stacks. However, then cass would just be a veiger with more utility, which makes it very unoriginal.

Steelclaw11/7/2014, 3:30:45 AM5 votes

Gutting her ratios and forcing her to stack her passive to get back to her old baseline damage is a horrible thing to do. A passive shouldn't gate a champion's power but should always be a benefit, even in the early game!

I'm totally fine with stacking passives, particularly if they provide gradual power increases. (Sion, Veigar, Nasus)

Suggestion: Drop the AP increases from the passive (give her better ratios in return) and focus on the CDR aspect. 25% bonus CDR at 200 stacks? Not too bad, but with the AP component gone, this could be boosted. Change it from these awkward stack milestones into a gradual CDR increase. Perhaps 0.15 CDR per stack, which would give 30% at 200 stacks, with a full 40% at 267 stacks. Cass will be getting a power boost by being able to use her abilities more often, and this would benefit her at all stages. A player wouldn't need CDR items, but they could always be bought and sold later if desired, or simply kept to get to the cap more quickly. It offers more build options than with her current passive. This would be a passive that would be useful at all stages of the game, and it would be fun to see her slowly ramp up in speed and be able to spam more often.

That's just one idea. I'm sure others could do better. I really think that the stacking AP, the gutted ratios, and the milestone power gating are really hurting Cassiopeia. She shouldn't have to make it to late game just to be useful.

BigDaddySenpaiii11/8/2014, 8:07:52 AM3 votes

Cass is only a lategame monster with one, maybe 2 babysitters. But why would you dedicate such resources to Cass? Vayne will carry harder, be 10x as elusive, Kog provides fantastic siege.

She still blows up if any assassin looks at her. She has no real escape or defensive mechanism. You're not a carry if you can't even get a basic combo off (anyone who is decent against Cass knows how to avoid her ult's stun, assuming she even lives long enough to use it)

Someone mentioned Syndra as not having her full power until 6 - that's different. That's just reaching 6, which is where most champions spike. Syndra also gets the luxury of being able to outbully a good amount of lane opponents and do meaningful DPS before 40 minutes, even before 4 minutes.

Audiomancy11/7/2014, 1:12:47 PM3 votes

The massive AP boost from the passive comes too late to make any real difference. And with how bad her ratios are, it doesn't even matter in the end.

Zero multiplied by a million is still zero, after all.

Orbv11/7/2014, 3:38:01 PM3 votes

Her passive should add to her abilities, like Syndra, not to her power. Besides the fact that they are basically trying to make Cass into what Syndra should be, they have wasted time trying to changer her power.

From 75 stacks, her Twin Fang should heal

From 150 stacks, her poison durations should last longer

From 225 stacks, her Twin Fang should get reduced cooldown from .5 to .25

From 300 Stacks, her Miasma gets full AoE from the start. Also when 1 poison is applied the a target who is already poisoned from another ability, damage from the second poison should be doubled. If a target is hit with a poison after getting hit by twin fang, that damage should be doubled.

This would actually make it so that she feels like she is getting stronger throughout the game, without relying on the exact same build every time.

NA111/7/2014, 4:48:35 PM3 votes

They really want to make Cass into a lategame hyperscaling AP carry, an AP version of Vayne or whathaveyou.

The problem with this is, lategame hyperscaling on AD carries occurs because of the exponential nature of AD x AtkSpd x ArmPen x Crit Chance. What does AP have? MPen and AP and CDR. Not only does it have 1 element less, CDR doesn't even work on Twin Fang.

They're trying to find a way for Cass to play like an AD Carry, weak at the start and a facemelter late game, and relying on 1 main form of damage. With an AD carry that's right-click, with some complimenting abilities. With Cass it'll be E spam with some complimenting abilities.

I feel like with Riot's current approach to Cass's changes, players would be better suited to playing Cass botlane with a support.

CrimsonRakan11/7/2014, 8:10:38 PM3 votes

her ap ratios suck, her ult is to slow, and she's really weak in damage resistance. her poison needs to be buffed

Long Dong Wukong11/7/2014, 9:34:17 PM3 votes

and then finally reaches her ultimate potential, when she receives a massive 30% AP bonus.

Please keep in mind there is to potential to be reached, her ratios are so low that 1000AP on her is basically the equivalent of 600 or so on other characters. It's the same effective number as every other mage reaches, she's just fucking useless for the rest of the game while they aren't.

Zinzon11/8/2014, 12:33:12 AM3 votes

I just tought of this:

HER STACKS NOW GIVE PERMANENT MANA POOL AND CONSERVE THE MILESTONE.

This applied to the live cassiopeia would allow player to fully invest in AP and it would make her laning much more fluid because she wont have to toss 700 gold to be effective in team fight. Also 700 gold early is huge. That's a part of her bad laning phase (imo). If she focus entirely on AP she would benefit from the % increase and also deal much more dmg and she wont be a lane bully anymore because of the low mana early and the "low" damage.

I Solo Towers11/7/2014, 5:35:14 PM2 votes

Her passive is so silly.

She isn't strong enough without it active to be in range of most champs to charge it up. Once she activates it and she is strong enough to charge it up she no longer needs it.

My biggest pet peeve about her passive is riot's justification was "dot and walk away" is no fun. Like they think having your damage as a dot is some type of advantage. Dots inherently area nerf not a buff. There is no advantage to doing 1,000 damage over 3 seconds verse doing 1,000 damage instantly.

I really don't think Riot is going to reverse direction and change her passive's structure. But I would like it if they would add a safer way for her to farm.

Albireo11/8/2014, 4:02:35 AM2 votes

There isn't any reason to pick her, nor early or late game, until they actually give her tools to survive in the late game to use the damage, and her build path is still horrible as it is right now, just the fact that she has real mana problems, and you are almost force to buy a tear, and if it's something like against ad and you dare to go something like Tear + Armguard, that's it you are not going to have any kind of pressence at all early to mid.

Kowe The Ewok11/7/2014, 10:34:13 PM2 votes

On a side note: She doesn't even receive "hyper-scaling". Hyper-scaling is uncapped with an open ceiling by definition. Cassiopeia however has a ceiling. She gets a powerspike, that's it.

Gorbache11/7/2014, 1:48:44 PM2 votes

If they want to keep the late game capability I think instead they should put the stack on her target (you know... like poison!). They could make it so the target take [x]% of extra damage.

On top of making it thematically better, it would allow her to have additional role (you could put her in the top lane if the enemy has a tank so you could have someone who could shred him late game, etc).

Of course in this case, the number of stacks would need to be a lot lower to compensate.

ThePurpleKnight11/7/2014, 6:37:45 AM2 votes

Cassiopeia players got it easy, yea your champ got nerfed, most reworks end up being nerfs, Sion without lifesteal, Nidalee without AP damage, Soraka without hp, and mana, Cassiopeia players should count themselves lucky they aren't Skarner players. You think Cassiopeia got fucked, imagine being an inescapable duelist, a fighter if you will, then have your inescapability removed, struggling slighting to stick to people, to have it given back to you in exchange for ALL YOUR DUEL POTENITAL! Like what is the point of being inescapable is nobody wants to escape?

And to top it all off, you're referred to as a tank by the very people who created you and labeled you as a FIGHTER. Just because you happen to build some higher durability damage items such as Iceborn Gauntlet or Wits End.

It's an easy fix Riot, PATCH 4.20 http://imgur.com/ouo9V1J problem solved.

YouLostMe11/7/2014, 2:36:17 AM1 votes

Your argument is that for the ability to feel rewarding, it must appear overpowered to an opponent. That's simply not true.

masterdragon48111/8/2014, 12:31:06 AM1 votes

Isn't this a similar problem that Kha'zix and Syndra share as well though? Both of these champions see spikes in damage and don't recieve their full kits (the thing they are balanced around) until level 16 and 18 respectively. Cassio passive is following a similar structure. On its own, I don't think that is such a big deal.

I think there are two problems with the rework as it is. First, because she isn't "rewarded" via her passive for spamming spells (and reducing their mana costs), she is almost forced into an athene's rush. Not the worst thing in the world, but it does limit her options a little more.

The second problem is, just like the first iteration of this passive, nothing on her kit has changed to fix any of the problems that she had. She is still going to push the lane, she still has zero escapes, and late game she still has to be very close to opponents with little CC to keep her alive. This is still nerfing her early game for a potential late game that cass is going to have a hard time reaching; and still has its problems once she reaches it.

Havenscythe11/8/2014, 2:46:37 AM1 votes

They designed her to be a powerhouse lategame, but then made her so weak early that she can never make it to lategame.

ProfessorTallguy11/7/2014, 9:18:35 PM1 votes

Please change her Passive to something that isn't "stack to a cap" It's not a fun mechanic, and she used to be such a fun champion.

clickhead11/7/2014, 7:17:47 AM1 votes

The fact that her passive has power spikes is 100% intentional, I know this because in a previous post about Cassiopeia I made the remark myself that it was curious that she had such steep power spikes now and a Rioter (who I assume is on the design team) said that it was intentional, they wanted to give more opportunities for counterplay and strategic decision making (i.e a smart opponent will fight Cassiopeia right before her power spikes and be wary of her right after she gets the spikes, whereas if it was steep Cassiopeia wouldn't notice the power difference and neither would the opponent).

Also you said ''Cassiopeia is allowed to gain a massive power bonus all at once, without any visual or statistical keys to indicate counterplay opportunities'' when in fact she does have a very clear visual indication of her passive level, when she reaches a new benchmark she even goes all glowy in a way that is impossible to miss.

Cassiopeia is like a snake, she plays carefully and subtly. But when the timing is just right (i.e she reaches one of her power spikes) she quickly darts to her prey to kill them. It fits pretty well if you ask me.

JustBoneBrook11/7/2014, 6:04:31 AM1 votes

I am a bit agreed her passif dont suite her right now (The passif is only good if you go FULL ap because else her old ability damage was just better than a fighter new passif max stack build)

#1 the new passif should give a flat AP may be. #2 her new passif should give her skill bulf only (but put the damage of the skill like before) for exemple the heal whene hiting e.