Yes Riot, you hear us...

GleamingTheMeta·Dec 9, 2015·118 votes·5,189 views

...but you dont LISTEN.

Recently, ZenontheStoic going over his thoughts about Tahm Kench and where he stands in the game. Typically I stay away from posting on the boards but this article illustrated perfectly my frustrations with Riots habit of having clear bias towards "favorite" champions. I am going to go over specific points of Zenon's commentary but please read for yourself Article found here.

Tahm has been dominating the Fields of Justice since inception; being almost 100% pick or ban in competitive play, boasting a 53% win rate, a 51% ban rate, and is in the top 3 of most banned champions. These are huge numbers for a "support" though Riot has stated they wanted him to access multiple roles (unlike Taric, Raka, Sona, etc. who have been repeatedly nerfed whenever they saw other positions). And while most agree that Tahm is either over-tuned, overpowered, over-budgetted, or any other adjective you want to use, Zenon uses typical girlfriend tactics ("we’re very much aware that a lot of you feel Tahm is very frustrating to play against") to discredit our opinion. He even goes further to specifically state how our "feelings are valid" not our actual opinions on the subject. Notice how this paragraph talks about how Riot "hears us" but subsequently attacks the validity of what they hear by labeling our concerns as something "we feel" not something that is actually occurring. This has been Riots stance for a specific group of champions, The LeeSin Effect, as well as every rework (not one reworked champion has been allowed to stay in, and in some cases even reach, competitive play).

Zenon then successfully identifies the overall problem with Tahm; "There are two more contributing factors to the feeling of frustration I want to talk about real quick. One is that he just seems unkillable, and the other is that he outputs a buttload of damage." However, he immediately discredits that assumption by saying that we cannot look at his abilities in a vacuum. Tahm does not have the tools to get to an enemy and stick to them (lie), nearly every ADC should be able to kite him (possibly true solo, not true when also worrying about positioning from the other ADC in lane), and that anyone with mobility can opt out of fighting him. Followed by this quote "We believe that as long as Tahm’s stickiness and catch potential remain as low as they are, it is okay for him to have the damage he does." Are we even playing the same game?

You should read the actual article linked about because there are more WTF moments and it would take to long to dissect the entire commentary.

Next Zenon is responding to players reactions to this. The first one he tackles is questions about Tahm's ability to stick; why is it so powerful in terms of damage, CC, and CD. Specifically that a 3.6 second CD 1.5 second stun followed by a 3 second suppress on a 6 second CD is oppressive and lacks counterplay. Zenon uses his second GF tactic by talking about other champions instead (Nautilus, Rammus, and Blitz can do the same thing and its easier for them). He completely ignores their lack of damage when building full CDR tank, unlike Tahm, and their inability to deny kills the way Tahm does. And follows it with a cherry picked, anecdotal statement about how hard it is for Tahm to set up his CC. The irony? Neither of the 3 champions he listed are seen in competitive play (much less pick or ban) and when they were they were nerfed because of it which is exactly the argument the community is making.

Lastly Zenon patronizes us for correctly identifying that Tahm is over his power budget. He acknowledges that Tahm is but doesnt care nor think thats a valid reason to nerf Tahm. Instead he creates a new term, "frustration level," that is what we should focus on instead. That power is easy to gauge (though not a reason to nerf when obviously too high) but frustration is really hard to determine. But dont bother telling Riot that Tahm is frustrating to play against either because its really hard to validate those opinions.

Built in free damage is unbalanced. Built in free tankiness is unbalanced. Both on the same champion on low cooldowns is oppressive. Please dont hear us, ACTUALLY LISTEN!

124 Comments

KikirinoDec 9, 201559 votes

I stopped reading when I saw "We believe that as long as Tahm’s stickiness and catch potential remain as low as they are". I knew right there that they are full of shit. Normally I don't bash Riot's decisions but I fucking hate Tahm more than anything else in this game and saying his stickiness is low is a blatant lie.

MrWasjigDec 9, 201512 votes

That statement, I had to try so hard not to burst into hysteric laughter at how un-fucking-true it is. I mean talk about pulling stuff out of your ass. There's making excuses, and then there's just making shit up from absolutely nothing. Tahm has low stickiness and catch potential? Yeah sure thing Zenon, and I can eat mahogany dining tables and shit out entire trees.

That post really was an exercise in phoning it in. He was both trying to make it look like Riot gave a shit about what the players think, while at the same time trying to hide "we don't want to nerf tahm" behind a guise of (seemingly legit) reasons as to why they don't.

There's a reason I'm so cynical of pretty much anything that comes out of Riot, and this post is a gorgeous illustration of why.

DorkunedAurasDec 9, 20154 votes

I caught that reference to Zero Punctuation "eat mahogany dining tables and shit out entire trees"

MrWasjigDec 9, 20153 votes

I've been shamelessly using it recently to exaggerate situations that are unlikely to happen. LIke Riot reverting nerfs. Although in that scenario shitting out a whole tree IS vastly more likely than Riot admitting they fucked up with anything related to the actual game (not say, merchandise)

Hyrum GraffDec 10, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I've been shamelessly using it recently to exaggerate situations that are unlikely to happen. LIke Riot reverting nerfs. Although in that scenario shitting out a whole tree IS vastly more likely than Riot admitting they fucked up with anything related to the actual game (not say, merchandise)

Pathing.

DorkunedAurasDec 10, 20152 votes

Except they have admitted their failures in the game multiple times. For example, they regularly point and laugh at their own failings in the patch notes (4.20 warwick is a regular occurrence here)

MrWasjigDec 10, 20153 votes

But they didn't do anything about it. Admitting a fault and actually doing something about it are two entirely separate things.

It's all well and good for an alcoholic to admit they're an alcoholic. But if he then goes and buys himself a six pack of cheap booze and downs the lot....what was the point of admitting he had a problem? Because we're no further along from where we started.

Togekiss24Dec 9, 201524 votes

Nah I think Tahm is fine the way he is.

snicker

GrReaper96Dec 9, 201515 votes

Yep unlike that broken Swain

3TWarriorDec 10, 20152 votes

let's list the champs on riot's radar: Swain , Janna , Nautilus , , Kayle , Ashe , TwistedFate , Yorick , Poppy (why is the icon updated before the champion...), Maokai , Veigar (understandable but not needed), Warwick , Anivia , Evelynn Evelynn Evelynn , Morgana , Nidalee (understandable), Sona , Teemo

so many champs seem to have stealth tech and yasuo has his windwall for nerfs XD (I don't find yasuo that annoying in a match but if i'm in lane against him it's pure misery )

GrReaper96Dec 10, 20152 votes

Actaully poppy is out

KANYE OBAMA GODDec 9, 20152 votes

same /s

Baron of BreadDec 9, 201517 votes

(not one reworked champion has been allowed to stay in, and in some cases even reach, competitive play)

Heard of Gragas or Tristana?

For the most part I simply disagree with you: Zenon was not being rude or condescending with his comments and was not showing favoritism.

GleamingTheMetaDec 9, 201510 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron of Bread,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZQKipeAy,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-12-09T03:37:52.384+0000)

Heard of Gragas or Tristana?

For the most part I simply disagree with you: Zenon was not being rude or condescending with his comments and was not showing favoritism.

Tristana was more of a visual update with only slight changes to her E and some scaling modifications. She was also always viable.
Gragas has basically the same kit as before with some minor scaling differences. Not really a rework either.

As for not showing favoritism Ill mention one thing; the Skarner rework. Skarner's stickiness functioned almost identically to what Tahms does now, with additional limitations (less range, less suppression, higher mana restrictions, and much less baked in damage) and he was reworked because "perma slows are toxic" according to Riot. Well Tahm can permaslow you, and kill you, and have two health bars, modified Skarner ult on a 6 second CD, and can ult into a fight from halfway across the map to secure kills.

What was that about favorites? Oh and Skarner just got another nerf to his ult despite being less played than Tahm...

Baron of BreadDec 9, 201515 votes

If Trist and Gragas don't count as reworks then what does it take to be considered a rework?

And on the topic of Tahm and Skarner: Skarner actually could keep a slow on you permanently. Tahm actually can't unless he gets a Frozen Mallet. During Skarner's ult you can still take damage and he can do it instantly. Tahm's Devour takes 3 stacks and then makes you untargetable while slowing himself. Skarner has a move speed buff. Tahm is immobile in combat unless he eats his friends. Skarner has AoE damage, Tahm has only single target.

Why did you think talking about Skarner could be used to show favoritism?

GleamingTheMetaDec 9, 20158 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron of Bread,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZQKipeAy,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2015-12-09T05:19:46.556+0000)

If Trist and Gragas don't count as reworks then what does it take to be considered a rework?

And on the topic of Tahm and Skarner: Skarner actually could keep a slow on you permanently. Tahm actually can't unless he gets a Frozen Mallet. During Skarner's ult you can still take damage and he can do it instantly. Tahm's Devour takes 3 stacks and then makes you untargetable while slowing himself. Skarner has a move speed buff. Tahm is immobile in combat unless he eats his friends. Skarner has AoE damage, Tahm has only single target.

Why did you think talking about Skarner could be used to show favoritism?

Umm Riot called trist a VU not a rework for one... but thats derailing the thread so Im not going to address this again.

As far as the Tahm vs Skarner. One complaint about Tahm is his stickiness which is addressed by Riot in the actual post. The reason for Skarner being reworked was because of his stickiness. For all purposes Tahm does his job better than Skarner ever has, this is not a debate, proven by the 100% pick or ban in worlds and competitive play. Thats how it shows favoritism. Skarner was not allowed to be able to stick to an enemy because only champions with escapes could avoid being permantly slowed. Tahm is allowed a 70% slow (stronger than Skarners) and a 1.5 second stun on a 3.6 second CD in addition to a 3 second suppress. Riot ackowledges that some champions cannot avoid this and a permantly locked down until killed. However, they justify this because of this direct quote "Nearly every ADC should be able to kite him, anyone with a mobility tool should be able to opt out of fighting him, and so on. " This exact rule was 100% true for Skarner and even more so considering Skarner had to be in melee range to engage while Tahm can do so at range. Whats even more hilarious is that Skarner was never even a steady pick in competitive play with more limitations than Tahm has now. Do you need more proof or are you just going to argue to argue?

Baron of BreadDec 9, 201511 votes

Trist had a VU and a rework.

this is not a debate

If this isn't a debate then why are you talking? If this weren't a debate I would state my opinion and you would state your opinion and we would go our separate ways. You responded to my opinion and made this a debate.

Tahm is by far not as sticky as Skarner was. Tahm has either a slow or a stun, not both. Tahm has no speed boosts so if he misses his tongue then he can't catch you. Skarner had a pretty substantial speed boost so it was easy for him to go in and he could stick to people even if they had escape tools.

In short, yes, I do need proof before I agree with you.

Edit: On the topic of reworked champs that are still in pro play there is still GP.

GleamingTheMetaDec 9, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron of Bread,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZQKipeAy,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-09T06:28:36.552+0000)

Trist had a VU and a rework.

If this isn't a debate then why are you talking? If this weren't a debate I would state my opinion and you would state your opinion and we would go our separate ways. You responded to my opinion and made this a debate.

Tahm is by far not as sticky as Skarner was. Tahm has either a slow or a stun, not both. Tahm has no speed boosts so if he misses his tongue then he can't catch you. Skarner had a pretty substantial speed boost so it was easy for him to go in and he could stick to people even if they had escape tools.

In short, yes, I do need proof before I agree with you.

Edit: On the topic of reworked champs that are still in pro play there is still GP.

What isnt for debate is that Tahm is more viable than Skarner ever was. The reason its not debatable is because Tahm has a 100% pick or ban rate in competitive play and Skarner never did. I thought my sentence clearly states that was is not debatable only applies to that sentence and I apologize if I didnt do that.

Arguing that Skarner is stickier, Tahm is stickier, or they are equally as sticky is ignoring the heart of the issue. Tahm is clearly more viable while utilizing very similar tactics. And if Skarner was toxic for the game as Riot stated he was then Tahm has to be even more toxic because he is even more effective. Make sense?

DorkunedAurasDec 9, 20153 votes

technically, on 5.16, Skarner was immensely viable, I don't think anyone would argue that.

GleamingTheMetaDec 12, 20151 votes

How long did it take to nerf Skarner back to obscurity?

Baron of BreadDec 9, 20152 votes

Tahm's major power does not come from his similarity to Skarner. His ability to nope an ally out of bad situations is the real problem (in my opinion) and Zenon stated that they are looking into that.

Tahm is not as effective as Skarner was at what Skarner did. The problem is that Tahm combines being decent at what Skarner did with the other parts of his kit to make him a bigger nuisance.

GleamingTheMetaDec 12, 20151 votes

"not as effective.... at what skarner did" "decent at what Skarner did"

So while I understand you dont think think he plays like Skarner does but you admit he can act in a similar way... if Tahm is always pucked and Skarner is not and they can fill a comparable role then Tahm is better at what Skarner does

While "noping" an ally is incredibly unsatisfying for the enemy team, and it is because their is no counterplay to it, its Tahms immense free damage while not building any damage items that makes him so overbearing. It allows him to build tanky and still be a primary target because of the damage he can output and the disruption he causes while the enemy team attempts to take out the carries. You lose for targeting Tahm and you lose for not targeting him

Baron of BreadDec 12, 20151 votes

Tahm is not better than Skarner at what Skarner does. Tahm can do a mediocre job at what Skarner does as well as doing other things (like eating allies). Tahm is picked more than Skarner mostly because of those other things and a bit because he can do a passable job of what Skarner does.

You lose for targeting Tahm and you lose for not targeting him

That is how tanks work. Tahm is like Mundo, if you don't do something about him he kills you but if you do you will use resources that could be better spent.

Is Tahm over his power budget? Yes, but it isn't because of his similarities to Skarner.

GleamingTheMetaDec 13, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron of Bread,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZQKipeAy,comment-id=000300000000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2015-12-12T19:24:29.321+0000)

Tahm is not better than Skarner at what Skarner does. Tahm can do a mediocre job at what Skarner does as well as doing other things (like eating allies). Tahm is picked more than Skarner mostly because of those other things and a bit because he can do a passable job of what Skarner does.

This is going around in circles. Tahm is always a better choice than Skarner. Regardless of whether or not you think their kits are more similar or disimilar does not change the fact that Tahm effectively replaces Skarner on the Fields of justice.

[{quoted}](name=Baron of Bread,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZQKipeAy,comment-id=000300000000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2015-12-12T19:24:29.321+0000)

That is how tanks work. Tahm is like Mundo, if you don't do something about him he kills you but if you do you will use resources that could be better spent.

That is NOT how tanks work.

If one team focuses a tank they will lose because the enemy ADC and APC will kill all the squishier targets until all that is left is support and/or tank, wining the team fight. The tanks job is to be tanky enough to not be worth attacking and either have a strong initiation or peel for ADC's and APC's to rack up kills. This is how Nautilus, Leona, Rammus, Thresh, Malphite, Amumu, etc work.

Mundo is a slightly different animal. Mundo lacks strong initiation and only has single target peel that isnt the best. He also only has one ability to peel with and does not have any hard CC. Due to his passive and ultimate, Mundo is extremely difficult to kill. His damage is not overwhelming but because of how long he stays in fights and his ability to quickly reengage in fights it seems higher than it is. What Mundo does have that other tanks do not is a spamable, infinite resource, medium range poke. If you focus Mundo in a team fight you will lose and he cannot keep you from reaching his carries.

Tahm, however, is too much both a tank and a carry. You cant focus him in a team fight because he will always build tank and has two health bars. You cant ignore him because his base damage is very high. You also cant ignore him because he will deny kills on his carries. What you are left with is an unfavorable option either way.

Its not that you cannot win a teamfight against Tahm, you can. Its that both ignoring him and focusing him feel like bad choices.

Baron of BreadDec 13, 20151 votes

Tahm does not replace Skarner. Tahm goes different places and does different things with some small overlap.

Another champ to mention is Nasus. You don't want to focus him because he is very durable, but if you don't do something he will kill everyone and make your ADC worthless with Wither. Tanks are about making you have to make a lose-lose choice. You don't want to focus Naut because that will take forever, but if you don't your team will barely be able to move. You don't want to focus Garen, but if you don't your carry will die. You don't want to focus Sejuani, but if you don't she will beat you down and keep you from going anywhere. You don't want to focus Amumu, but if you don't he will shred your team. You don't want to focus Sion, but if you don't he will keep a zone of cc around him. You don't want to focus Trundle, but if you don't your tank will be squishy and your ADC will be dead.

Does Tahm punish the "don't focus him" choice more than he should? Probably, he is over power budget and needs to be trimmed down somewhere.

GleamingTheMetaDec 9, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron of Bread,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZQKipeAy,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-09T06:28:36.552+0000)

Edit: On the topic of reworked champs that are still in pro play there is still GP.

That is a very short list

GP and Trist are both more VU's. Their kits are almost the same as the original with slight tweaks to fit together more thematically. I.e. GP's ult functions exactly the same the old one only the RNG was removed. Yes the E is a new ability but GPs old E was never used.

Karma, Sion, Skarner, etc are reworks. Almost none of their original kits exist and even the new abilities that have similarities with old ones function differently. They are for the majority viewed as entirely new champions.

ProfDrDeathDec 9, 20156 votes

Reworked champions that saw pro play after their reworks (and not just one shot at it, too):

Mordekaiser Darius Skarner Fiora Gangplank Ashe Ryze Veigar Tristana

...And those are only the Gameplay reworks of 2015. The only reworks of this year to not yet see pro play are Garen and Zilean.

3TWarriorDec 10, 20151 votes

darius: not reworked, just updated skarner: only his passive was changed veigar: only updated (his Q was no longer targetable and slowly due to player feedback, his ult was changed to work on assists and to grow larger the more AP he amasses) Ryze: mostly an update but his playstyle was changed from passive to aggressive so it's debatable

CosnirakDec 10, 20152 votes

I disagree about Darius and sort of about Skarner and Ryze. They were reworks. More importantly, the list of reworked champions to NOT see pro player is the short list. Especially as Garen would likely be "just updated" by your standards.

NarasimhaDec 9, 20154 votes

. Their kits are almost the same as the original with slight tweaks to fit together more thematically.

If it's almost the same, then it's not the same. Minor or not, a rework is a rework.

3TWarriorDec 10, 20151 votes

riot only added an active explosive element to tristana's E

her entire kit stayed intact and has only since been buffed, not reworked

compare soraka, whose entire kit has been changed in her rework (starcall was targeted in an area of effect, her heal only cost a small amount of mana before, her E could restore mana in addition to all it does now and her trademark ult stayed mostly the same but now is immune to grievous wounds and ignite)

Sion's Q used to be a targeted stun that gained stun time the further the projectile traveled. Sion's W is mostly unchanged. I don't know what his E was but I think it had something to do with life steal and his ult, who knows compared to the reviving, unstoppable(ultimate) juggernaut that we all love

Fiora kept some of her core elements but the other elements of her kit were changed dramatically. Her W now can block any ability in the game and has potential crowd control. Her ultimate is now a heal bomb that depends upon attacking from specified directions on a champion (compared to being untargetable and dashing between champs)

Graves entire identity as a marksman was changed where he is now an opportunistic brawler who excels against grouped enemies compared to marksman stereotype with Q being a shotgun blast. His entire Q ability was changed

poppy's entire core was changed so that now she reflects her Hammer Time fun. Her passive was changed to where she throws a buckler (were most players even aware she had a buckler) and gains a shield instead of reducing any damage she recieves that is over 10% of her hp. Her Q now causes a melee range eruption from the ground. Her W is now the much sought after mobility counter (somewhat) by preventing engages and escapes while in range. Her E was mostly unchanged and her Ultimate is now the best disengage ability in the game

there have not been many true reworks in the game, just updates

Baron of BreadDec 10, 20152 votes

The Explosive charge addition drastically changed Trist's kit with the interactions it added to the other abilities.

Sion's old E gave him AD at the cost of life on every attack as well as giving max HP when Sion killed units while it was on. His ult gave him lifesteal he shared with allies and attack speed.

flibitydooDec 9, 20156 votes

You mean the part where they called it a

01/28/2015 Tristana Visual and Gameplay Update

according to the official riot update schedule site? Yes they totally called it "just a VU"

or, as you put it "just a slight change to her E" aka

General Title changed to "the Yordle Gunner" from "the Megling Gunner". New lore. New ability icons. Visual upgrade across all skins. New voice over. Stats Base attack damage increased to 54.54 from 52.54. Attack speed per level reduced to 1.5% from 2.5%. Base health reduced to 542.76 from 552.76. Base armor reduced to 22 from 24.04. Draw a Bead.png Draw a Bead Range per level reduced to 7 from 9. Rocket Jump.png Rocket Jump Base damage reduced to 80 / 105 / 130 / 155 / 180 from 70 / 115 / 160 / 205 / 250. AP scaling reduced to (+ 50% AP) from (+ 80% AP). NEW EFFECT: If Rocket Jump strikes an enemy marked with Explosive Shot.png Explosive Shot, Rocket Jump's damage to all targets is increased by 25% per stack of Explosive Shot.png Explosive Shot. Rocket Jump will also detonate Explosive Shot.png Explosive Shot if the target was at 4 stacks. Maximum damage on Rocket Jump is 160 / 210 / 260 / 310 / 360 (+ 100% AP). Explosive Shot.png Explosive Shot Renamed Explosive Charge. NEW ACTIVE: Tristana places a charge on the target enemy or tower that explodes after 4 seconds, dealing damage to nearby enemies. Tristana's basic attacks against the target will increase Explosive Shot's damage by 25%, stacking up to 4 times, with the 5th attack detonating the charge immediately. Damage changed to to 60 / 70 / 80 / 90 / 100 (+ 50 / 65 / 80 / 95 / 110% Bonus AD) (+ 50% AP) from 80 / 125 / 170 / 215 / 260 (+ 100% AP). Maximum damage on Explosive Shot is 120 / 140 / 160 / 180 / 200 (+ 100 / 130 / 160 / 190 / 220% Bonus AD) (+ 100% AP). Damage type changed to physical from magical. No longer applies Grievous Wounds. Mana cost increased to 70 / 75 / 80 / 85 / 90 from 50 / 60 / 70 / 80 / 90. Cooldown reduced to 16 / 15 / 14 / 13 / 12 seconds from 16 at all ranks. Buster Shot.png Buster Shot Ability power ratio reduced to 100% AP from 150% AP.

according to the patch notes of 5.2?

Also tahm has no permaslow

the only slow in his kit is from Tongue lash, which has a 6 second cd (at all ranks, with 40% cdr it has around a 4 second cd) and the duration of the slow (or stun) is 2 seconds in duration. Which means for 2 seconds, you aren't slowed/stunned. Also just like Skarner, it costs mana to spam so it's not even permanent unless you itemize for infinite mana.

TheorcheroDec 12, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron of Bread,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZQKipeAy,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-12-09T03:37:52.384+0000)

Heard of Gragas or Tristana?

For the most part I simply disagree with you: Zenon was not being rude or condescending with his comments and was not showing favoritism.

Gragas and Trist received numerous nerfs and for a bit they were knocked out of competitive play

Blue Moon WolfDec 9, 20155 votes

I wish they would just focus on his Support role over his Top lane carry role. I love playing Tahm as a support and he has some fun mechanics for the role, but facing him top is completely oppressive. You can't get in to do damage cause he will heal it up and take a chunk of your health at the same time. Yet for some reason riot decided him support was the problem and nerfed something that will only affect him as a support and during teamfights, or as I like to call it "the snowball phase".

MinardeDec 9, 20155 votes

You should read the actual article linked about because there are more WTF moments and it would take to long to dissect the entire commentary.

You might want to reread Zenon's write-up yourself because you clearly missed out on context. The entire review is meant to be a back-and-forth discussion. Zenon explains Tahm's kit design; players explain their feelings about various elements; Zenon justifies balance/design decisions. If Zenon simply responded with "Yes, that's true," then we as players wouldn't learn anything about why Tahm's numbers are what they currently are.

Lastly Zenon patronizes us for correctly identifying that Tahm is over his power budget. He acknowledges that Tahm is but doesnt care nor think thats a valid reason to nerf Tahm. Instead he creates a new term, "frustration level," that is what we should focus on instead. That power is easy to gauge (though not a reason to nerf when obviously too high) but frustration is really hard to determine. But dont bother telling Riot that Tahm is frustrating to play against either because its really hard to validate those opinions.

On second thought, did you even read Zenon's comments? He specifically states that Tahm isn't over his power budget, yet Tahm is frustrating to play against. The entire thread is discussing why Tahm feels frustrating to players and why Tahm is in his current state. It's not meant to discuss whether Tahm should be changed, but how he should be changed.

Zenon actually did a great job explaining Riot's reasoning behind various decisions while debunking erroneous statements with specific numbers when possible.

MinardeDec 9, 20155 votes

On a side note,

Specifically that a 3.6 second CD 1.5 second stun followed by a 3 second suppress on a 6 second CD is oppressive and lacks counterplay. Zenon uses his second GF tactic by talking about other champions instead (Nautilus, Rammus, and Blitz can do the same thing and its easier for them). He completely ignores their lack of damage when building full CDR tank, unlike Tahm, and their inability to deny kills the way Tahm does.

Where exactly do you see full-CDR tank Tahm being a common thing? Looking at champion.gg's data, even at 5.5 items, support Tahm only has 30% CDR at most. Top Tahm typically has 10%, and Jungle Tahm sometimes has 25%. Tahm's cooldowns being too low might be a valid complaint, but not when you just arbitrarily assume he always has 40% CDR.

SKOBODODec 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

On a side note,

Where exactly do you see full-CDR tank Tahm being a common thing?

Dominion. Though if Riot were balancing for Dominion they would've nerfed him a long time ago (or not overbuffed him in the first place).

MinardeDec 11, 20151 votes

True, but I was aiming at SR's playerbase on this one.

SpellFlingerDec 9, 20155 votes

You really shouldn't try to diminish his responses by calling them "girlfriend tactics" . He was communicating like a human being> He was showing empathy, then giving a reason behind their decisions. The empathy response was natural to the butt hurt feelings of the community over Kench. Its important when dealing with upset subjects. "I feel ya man, I understand", and they do understand. The decisions for Kenches design make sense though. Sure, there are situations where he can be oppressive to play against. SO FUCKING WHAT. A situation where a champion is really strong... OH NO! Now I agree he should be toned back a little bit and the author even admitted they are looking at it! There should be situations where champions shine more than others. Not every single exchange should be super balanced! The game you want is boring as fuck. I am glad the Move speed away is getting nerfed, that is probably the only BS part of his kit. The Kench is a unique champion though, lets keep it that way.

TransgressorDec 9, 20154 votes

The only ones that say "Riot heard us" are the goons that drool over the new jungle item, while they keep forgetting that everything in the PBE is tentative. Fact that means this item might never make it into the game.

But that's what fanboys and fangirls always did, so no surprise here.

Ayame IsakiDec 9, 20152 votes

I really hope the new jungle item doesn't survive PBE. To be fair, my favorite junglers are Eve and Elise, both of whom love Runeglaive.

TransgressorDec 9, 20153 votes

I don't like it either. It's a bandaid solution, not a direct adress of the problem.

g07h4xf00Dec 9, 20153 votes

Just reduce his damage and he's balanced. Being really tanky is a characteristic a lot of champions have ( DrMundo Malphite Taric Alistar )

delonixDec 9, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Tahm has been dominating the Fields of Justice since inception; being almost 100% pick or ban in competitive play, boasting a 53% win rate, a 51% ban rate, and is in the top 3 of most banned champions.

I think this statement is more questionable than anything ZenontheStoic said. Tahm certainly has not been "dominating the Fields of Justice since inception," and the stats the follow are either misleading or flat-out wrong. Tahm had 45% pick/ban at Worlds, 47% win rate in Plat+ ranked games pre-5.22 (as support and as top), and he only recently joined the top 3 most banned.

What tools, specifically, do you think Tahm has to "get to an enemy and stick to them?" Waddle in their direction if he hits a skill shot slow? Pray they stand in melee range (recently nerfed btw) long enough for him to stun/devour them?

If Zenon's post is "typical girlfriend tactics," then your post is typical politician tactics. You aren't making any real arguments, let alone good arguments. You're just drawing on people's fear that Riot has some sort of secret agenda to keep certain champions in power and attacking the Rioter who bothered to try to engage the community about Tahm while complaining that Riot doesn't "listen."

GleamingTheMetaDec 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

"What tools, specifically, do you think Tahm has to "get to an enemy and stick to them?" Waddle in their direction if he hits a skill shot slow? Pray they stand in melee range (recently nerfed btw) long enough for him to stun/devour them?."

If this argument actually applied to the game at all then no skill shot would land and no one without a gap closer would ever get in melee range. I know, I know... just pink ward

delonixDec 12, 20151 votes

I'm not arguing that because an ability is a skillshot it shouldn't be evaluated. I'm not actually making any argument in the part of the post you quoted. I'm just asking you to explain something from the original post.

To me, you putting "(lie)" at the end of a quote that's taken at least a little out of context (Zenon literally prefaces this assertion with "Against most of our roster,"), requires some sort of explanation of why you think that quote isn't true and, preferably, why you think Zenon knows it isn't true.

The argument in the rest of my comment is that you make wild claims like "Tahm does not have the tools to get to an enemy and stick to them (lie)" without backing it up with logical analysis or data.

GleamingTheMetaDec 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'm not arguing that because an ability is a skillshot it shouldn't be evaluated. I'm not actually making any argument in the part of the post you quoted. I'm just asking you to explain something from the original post.

To me, you putting "(lie)" at the end of a quote that's taken at least a little out of context (Zenon literally prefaces this assertion with "Against most of our roster,"), requires some sort of explanation of why you think that quote isn't true and, preferably, why you think Zenon knows it isn't true.

The argument in the rest of my comment is that you make wild claims like "Tahm does not have the tools to get to an enemy and stick to them (lie)" without backing it up with logical analysis or data.

Other than actually playing against him what evidence do I need? OK...

Tahm has a short CD (lets say 4 secs @ 30% cdr) 800 range 70% slow. Tahm isnt slow himself being in the middle tier of base movement speed. Even at max range Tahm will be able to almost be in melee range after 1 max range Q. If not the the second Q does put you in melee range. With only 1 dash most champions will not be able to escape and can be kept in melee range indefinitely. You will argue that the opponent is not permanently slowed, however they still never escape. Thats stickiness. And with decent CDR *which Tahm builds) you can easily Q multiple times or NOM NOM NOM someone if you fear them escaping. Dont forget the Q's turn into 1.5 seconds stuns as well. Is it 100% full proof no one escapes? Of course not, but Skarner had the same conditions and was nerfed because it was deemed "toxic" by Riot.

Now hyper mobile champions like Riven or Lee Sin wont have a problem escaping in most cases, but they do that against everyone. That doesnt mean Tahm does not have stickiness.... and if a champion is immobile, then they dont have a choice but to engage in a fight they probably wont win because of the high base damage and health scaling on abilities.

So whats the lie? "Against most of our roster" is the lie. Purely anecdotal and not supported by in game data and experience. You do not want to engage as a melee and he can poke you as ranged

delonixDec 13, 20151 votes

Tahm's Q starts with 800 range, but it has a base 6 second cd and 30% slow. The slow doesn't reach 70% until at least level 9. Tahm does build cdr, but without sacrificing a bunch of other stats from his rune page, he starts with 10% cdr max. Getting another 20% can be expensive, and while Tahm is building cdr, his opponent can build MR and tenacity.

Tahm is actually slower than average. Base movement speed ranges from 325 to 355, putting Tahm's 335 on the low end. If you look at the number of champions who are at each movement speed, 335 is clearly below "middle tier." But let's do the math. Max range Q is 800. Max slow is 70%. Duration is 2 seconds. Tahm moves at 335. Let's say his target also moves at 335. Tahm covers 670 units during 2 seconds. His target covers about 200. Tahm is now 330 units away from his target, well outside of melee range, and his target is now moving away as fast as he is moving closer.

In reality, Tahm is unlikely to land max range Q because it's a skillshot, and if he does, it isn't a 70% slow until level 9, and his opponent probably has better movement speed or a dash or both. If Tahm can't get in melee range, then even at 30% cdr he has a 3 second window to land another Q or the stacks fall off.

I'm not sure which Skarner you are talking about because of all of the changes, but the most recent Skarner nerfs happened to a Skarner with a stun that can be procced after 1 ability which has a slow. Proccing the stun gives Skarner bonus movement speed. Skarner also has a separate movement speed buff, movement speed buffs around the map, and a no-condition suppression. Not really even similar to Tahm.

If "against most of our roster" is the lie, why wasn't that even in the original post, where you call the rest of the sentence a lie? Champions with ranged stuns can stun Tahm and walk away before he gets 3 stacks. Champions with a dash can dash away. Champions with a speed boost can run away. Champions with a knockback, a snare, etc. Some champions can even use a slow to escape before Tahm gets 3 stacks. Tahm's enemies need to be hit by multiple skillshots for Tahm to get to them. There are a lot of champions that can escape from Tahm if he doesn't dodge every skillshot. I didn't go through all of the champions, but it seems unlikely that even in a 1v1 scenario with no towers or minions that Tahm would be able to stick to most enemy champions.

Really, League is a team game, which means Tahm is lucky because he can get help to do what he couldn't do alone (get to and stick to an enemy), but it also means that whoever he is getting to has help. In lane, you can poke him with autoattacks as a ranged champion, while he is reliant on a skillshot that doesn't go through minions. If you're melee, you have to know your power spikes and his power spikes and decide when you should trade with him, but Tahm isn't as scary as other lane bullies like Renekton and Illaoi.

dragon n1njaDec 9, 20152 votes

it's the same with Bard he is being constantly buffed and buffed, poeple arent playing him because he is rather tricky to understand but now his meep damage is getting more and more significant. I dont think they should nerf bard, but stop bufing him every patch