Yes Riot, you hear us...

GleamingTheMeta·12/9/2015, 12:23:56 AM·118 votes·5,189 views

...but you dont LISTEN.

Recently, ZenontheStoic going over his thoughts about Tahm Kench and where he stands in the game. Typically I stay away from posting on the boards but this article illustrated perfectly my frustrations with Riots habit of having clear bias towards "favorite" champions. I am going to go over specific points of Zenon's commentary but please read for yourself Article found here.

Tahm has been dominating the Fields of Justice since inception; being almost 100% pick or ban in competitive play, boasting a 53% win rate, a 51% ban rate, and is in the top 3 of most banned champions. These are huge numbers for a "support" though Riot has stated they wanted him to access multiple roles (unlike Taric, Raka, Sona, etc. who have been repeatedly nerfed whenever they saw other positions). And while most agree that Tahm is either over-tuned, overpowered, over-budgetted, or any other adjective you want to use, Zenon uses typical girlfriend tactics ("we’re very much aware that a lot of you feel Tahm is very frustrating to play against") to discredit our opinion. He even goes further to specifically state how our "feelings are valid" not our actual opinions on the subject. Notice how this paragraph talks about how Riot "hears us" but subsequently attacks the validity of what they hear by labeling our concerns as something "we feel" not something that is actually occurring. This has been Riots stance for a specific group of champions, The LeeSin Effect, as well as every rework (not one reworked champion has been allowed to stay in, and in some cases even reach, competitive play).

Zenon then successfully identifies the overall problem with Tahm; "There are two more contributing factors to the feeling of frustration I want to talk about real quick. One is that he just seems unkillable, and the other is that he outputs a buttload of damage." However, he immediately discredits that assumption by saying that we cannot look at his abilities in a vacuum. Tahm does not have the tools to get to an enemy and stick to them (lie), nearly every ADC should be able to kite him (possibly true solo, not true when also worrying about positioning from the other ADC in lane), and that anyone with mobility can opt out of fighting him. Followed by this quote "We believe that as long as Tahm’s stickiness and catch potential remain as low as they are, it is okay for him to have the damage he does." Are we even playing the same game?

You should read the actual article linked about because there are more WTF moments and it would take to long to dissect the entire commentary.

Next Zenon is responding to players reactions to this. The first one he tackles is questions about Tahm's ability to stick; why is it so powerful in terms of damage, CC, and CD. Specifically that a 3.6 second CD 1.5 second stun followed by a 3 second suppress on a 6 second CD is oppressive and lacks counterplay. Zenon uses his second GF tactic by talking about other champions instead (Nautilus, Rammus, and Blitz can do the same thing and its easier for them). He completely ignores their lack of damage when building full CDR tank, unlike Tahm, and their inability to deny kills the way Tahm does. And follows it with a cherry picked, anecdotal statement about how hard it is for Tahm to set up his CC. The irony? Neither of the 3 champions he listed are seen in competitive play (much less pick or ban) and when they were they were nerfed because of it which is exactly the argument the community is making.

Lastly Zenon patronizes us for correctly identifying that Tahm is over his power budget. He acknowledges that Tahm is but doesnt care nor think thats a valid reason to nerf Tahm. Instead he creates a new term, "frustration level," that is what we should focus on instead. That power is easy to gauge (though not a reason to nerf when obviously too high) but frustration is really hard to determine. But dont bother telling Riot that Tahm is frustrating to play against either because its really hard to validate those opinions.

Built in free damage is unbalanced. Built in free tankiness is unbalanced. Both on the same champion on low cooldowns is oppressive. Please dont hear us, ACTUALLY LISTEN!

124 Comments

Kikirino12/9/2015, 1:50:54 AM59 votes

I stopped reading when I saw "We believe that as long as Tahm’s stickiness and catch potential remain as low as they are". I knew right there that they are full of shit. Normally I don't bash Riot's decisions but I fucking hate Tahm more than anything else in this game and saying his stickiness is low is a blatant lie.

Togekiss2412/9/2015, 12:27:48 AM24 votes

Nah I think Tahm is fine the way he is.

snicker

Baron of Bread12/9/2015, 3:37:52 AM17 votes

(not one reworked champion has been allowed to stay in, and in some cases even reach, competitive play)

Heard of Gragas or Tristana?

For the most part I simply disagree with you: Zenon was not being rude or condescending with his comments and was not showing favoritism.

SpellFlinger12/9/2015, 9:27:37 PM5 votes

You really shouldn't try to diminish his responses by calling them "girlfriend tactics" . He was communicating like a human being> He was showing empathy, then giving a reason behind their decisions. The empathy response was natural to the butt hurt feelings of the community over Kench. Its important when dealing with upset subjects. "I feel ya man, I understand", and they do understand. The decisions for Kenches design make sense though. Sure, there are situations where he can be oppressive to play against. SO FUCKING WHAT. A situation where a champion is really strong... OH NO! Now I agree he should be toned back a little bit and the author even admitted they are looking at it! There should be situations where champions shine more than others. Not every single exchange should be super balanced! The game you want is boring as fuck. I am glad the Move speed away is getting nerfed, that is probably the only BS part of his kit. The Kench is a unique champion though, lets keep it that way.

Blue Moon Wolf12/9/2015, 8:57:43 AM5 votes

I wish they would just focus on his Support role over his Top lane carry role. I love playing Tahm as a support and he has some fun mechanics for the role, but facing him top is completely oppressive. You can't get in to do damage cause he will heal it up and take a chunk of your health at the same time. Yet for some reason riot decided him support was the problem and nerfed something that will only affect him as a support and during teamfights, or as I like to call it "the snowball phase".

Minarde12/9/2015, 9:44:12 AM5 votes

You should read the actual article linked about because there are more WTF moments and it would take to long to dissect the entire commentary.

You might want to reread Zenon's write-up yourself because you clearly missed out on context. The entire review is meant to be a back-and-forth discussion. Zenon explains Tahm's kit design; players explain their feelings about various elements; Zenon justifies balance/design decisions. If Zenon simply responded with "Yes, that's true," then we as players wouldn't learn anything about why Tahm's numbers are what they currently are.

Lastly Zenon patronizes us for correctly identifying that Tahm is over his power budget. He acknowledges that Tahm is but doesnt care nor think thats a valid reason to nerf Tahm. Instead he creates a new term, "frustration level," that is what we should focus on instead. That power is easy to gauge (though not a reason to nerf when obviously too high) but frustration is really hard to determine. But dont bother telling Riot that Tahm is frustrating to play against either because its really hard to validate those opinions.

On second thought, did you even read Zenon's comments? He specifically states that Tahm isn't over his power budget, yet Tahm is frustrating to play against. The entire thread is discussing why Tahm feels frustrating to players and why Tahm is in his current state. It's not meant to discuss whether Tahm should be changed, but how he should be changed.

Zenon actually did a great job explaining Riot's reasoning behind various decisions while debunking erroneous statements with specific numbers when possible.

Transgressor12/9/2015, 10:02:35 AM4 votes

The only ones that say "Riot heard us" are the goons that drool over the new jungle item, while they keep forgetting that everything in the PBE is tentative. Fact that means this item might never make it into the game.

But that's what fanboys and fangirls always did, so no surprise here.

g07h4xf0012/9/2015, 4:44:44 PM3 votes

Just reduce his damage and he's balanced. Being really tanky is a characteristic a lot of champions have (DrMundo Malphite Taric Alistar)

delonix12/9/2015, 8:43:37 PM3 votes

{quoted}

Tahm has been dominating the Fields of Justice since inception; being almost 100% pick or ban in competitive play, boasting a 53% win rate, a 51% ban rate, and is in the top 3 of most banned champions.

I think this statement is more questionable than anything ZenontheStoic said. Tahm certainly has not been "dominating the Fields of Justice since inception," and the stats the follow are either misleading or flat-out wrong. Tahm had 45% pick/ban at Worlds, 47% win rate in Plat+ ranked games pre-5.22 (as support and as top), and he only recently joined the top 3 most banned.

What tools, specifically, do you think Tahm has to "get to an enemy and stick to them?" Waddle in their direction if he hits a skill shot slow? Pray they stand in melee range (recently nerfed btw) long enough for him to stun/devour them?

If Zenon's post is "typical girlfriend tactics," then your post is typical politician tactics. You aren't making any real arguments, let alone good arguments. You're just drawing on people's fear that Riot has some sort of secret agenda to keep certain champions in power and attacking the Rioter who bothered to try to engage the community about Tahm while complaining that Riot doesn't "listen."

dragon n1nja12/9/2015, 8:28:40 PM2 votes

it's the same with Bard he is being constantly buffed and buffed, poeple arent playing him because he is rather tricky to understand but now his meep damage is getting more and more significant. I dont think they should nerf bard, but stop bufing him every patch