The True Value of Twisted Treeline

Toddwick·Nov 8, 2019·54 votes·13,133 views

As briefly discussed in a disjointed prior post (https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/6hsxHdHj-the-reason-we-all-play-league-and-a-major-incoming-change-to-our-game)

The reason we play popular MMO's is fighting, scarcity, the ability emerge from the vast majority through practice/skill/luck. I ask you, where this is ever more present than Twisted Treeline? It's a simplified version of league. If SR were a meal, it would be represented by a burger, and TT a steak. There is so much more of the best parts of league in 3's. _ There are NO lanes. Just tops._ A talented & lucky bruiser of any play style can carry, whether behind or not.

After you've settled into the 3's style, 5's can be boring at times. Wait 20-30 minutes for a team fight? It's not for me to judge others' joys. You may do as you wish, but if they were taking away 5's in favor of 3's, I would rally for your cause. Please help us TT'ers with ours!

There will be unintended consequences to losing this mode:

Loss of Player Agency: If you ask any player, what is the biggest problem with solo que? Every answer boils down to the player. Inters, ragers, kids, DC's, or carries that simply get tired and throw. We've all played that game where you had a chance to carry but not truly 1v5. MY POINT: 3's mitigates this issue by -2. You have 2 less inters, 2 less rage quitters, 2 less reasons to lose. More reasons to show your guile, talent, and WIN. Also are you a disenfranchised top? Feel like you can't carry a 5v5 because of a dead bot lane? I'm looking at you Hashinshin ("ALL TOPS ARE QUITTING ALL THE TIME, RIOT WILL NEVER KEEP US"). Go ahead, enjoy the last few minutes of Treelines' life!
Loss of New Demographics: Think for a brief second, do you remember your first month in league? Year? Do you remember your first team fight? Having a ton of, even bad, players deathbomb is tilting. I have talked to countless youths that quit this game due to it being too hard. Not that TT is less hard, but it takes away factors that are extra cumbersome to the learning process (wards, no help from team early, major CS difference etc)while players are still working on micro and macro playing. The elephant in the room, such as myself, is mature players. Those who are older and vastly underrepresented in the community. These players have a much more difficult time learning, most simply wont try. Riot is closing the door on business. There may have been a moment they thought making TFT was crazy. But they went for it and saw results. There is money to be made here, and new players to culture. We can't all be master/pro out of the gate.
Game Night Loss: Whatever the reason reason you play with your 2 best friends - whether it be to hang out, connect, fight as one, heck even develop better cohesion at work via a non-work setting - it's much more difficult to find 5 buddies and get them in the same place/page. Building a pro team is a massive undertaking and expense to investors. It's the same for solo que. And think- you and your buddies now have to que in 5's and deal with 2 potential feeders that can cost the nights' joy and take away from you learning and focusing on your OWN mistakes, or group mistakes.
Leisure & Learning Loss: I don't know if this is expressly a me problem or mature player problem but. What the f*** is happening in televised pro games? It's like getting laid, but you need to pause every 30 seconds because someone is at the door (or the other screen). Half the time I'm watching pro's game is to watch a specific player or the team as a whole, not a camera that is jumping between 50 points. OCD much? One of my favorite things to do is spectate my buddies' 3v3 games - you can see everything! All the time! I had an idea the other day to build an APP to watch pro SR's on a 3 way split screen so you could simply move your eyes to catch the action of a different lane. This would be much more realistic/enjoyable. But maybe this is an older person problem?
Summoner Rift Fatigue Remedy Loss: - You've just had a 3 game loss streak where you fought your hardest and still lost. QUE 3's! Different enough meta you can shock your senses back into gear, tilted or not. Some will que for TFT, but no thanks. I'd rather do something different that actually helps my mechanics/learning on the champs I need to work on.
Experimental Build or New Main Champion Practice Loss: What original players note as one of the strongest points of league - the creative use of maps, builds, champs, pathing to win - is best encouraged in TT. Fueled by 850 gold start and quick match timer, you are fighting and using your 'new' build almost instantly. Easy to see if it will work or wont rather than wasting the time of 4 other people in SR and possibly inting. Let's be real, the training tools and bots we face are no place to learn mechanics by rote. Humans learn best in the field. TT is a superior canvas for trial and error.

These effect myself and others being a paying and playing customer.

I am still looking for ideas on how we might collectively show Riot why this is slow bleeding blow to the equity of League of Legends. Focusing on positive or creative solutions only. Also I will post this on every reddit main champ page.

Who is ready to fight? (round 1)

25 Comments

FrostsniperNov 8, 201914 votes

This guy gets it, long live TT.

EedatNov 8, 20199 votes

What it comes down to is what resources do they have and what is the best way to distribute them. Nobody is going to argue that TT was left to rot years ago, but it only got to that point because even when they gave it attention and a full VGU it generated no interest. Now we have things like TFT and their other games coming and 1) it makes little to no sense to put any resources in a dice roll on TT where history has shown the odds are not in their favor and 2) now need the extra server space with all these new things coming. Servers space is not cheap. Especially ones that have the capacity to host an extremely large game like LoL and 3) it is becoming an eyesore and is in desperate need of a full VU again which they just cant justify doing. They are trying to keep the game look fresh and modern

It's check and balances that decide the outcome. I'm sure if you surveyed TT mains then 99.9% of them would want it to stay, but that is only one factor of many.

ToddwickNov 8, 20197 votes

I see you have accepted defeat. Appreciate your words either way.

SaezioNov 8, 20196 votes

Some of us see this as a win though?

ToddwickNov 8, 20195 votes

I see you have accepted defeat

SaezioNov 8, 20193 votes

No, I am on the other side. I won. TT was providing 0 to my LoL experience. Now I get to either see Riot have more people for SR ARAM and TfT (modes I care about) or see them venture in creating another mode I might play a couple times at worst, or it will be something like NB which I adored.

ZephyrDrakeNov 8, 20195 votes

{quoted}

I see you have accepted defeat

I see you accepted defeat as well. A useless mode that provides no value serves no purpose. It's wasting resources better used elsewhere. Maybe you should have rallied your so called TT mains to keep it afloat and in new blood instead of using analogies like "SR is a burger while TT is a steak" please if TT is a steak then it must be one of those horrible ones you get in the generic brand of frozen meals.

ImTheJuggernautyNov 8, 20193 votes

{quoted}

I see you accepted defeat as well. A useless mode that provides no value serves no purpose. It's wasting resources better used elsewhere. Maybe you should have rallied your so called TT mains to keep it afloat and in new blood instead of using analogies like "SR is a burger while TT is a steak" please if TT is a steak then it must be one of those horrible ones you get in the generic brand of frozen meals.

I see you are salty. The OP wasn't throwing any real insults, kind of low on your part. Also, your argument lacks completeness. You're only taking into account 1. Low amount of players 2. Limited resources 3. The fact that riot did a half-hearted refresh to TT to make it better, but had little or no effect.

But you don't take into account why people actually don't play it: (see my other comment, but here goes)

Too many dang bots, not enough real players. This is the biggest issue
No quest incentives.
Hardly ANY updates. Last one was like 4-5 years ago, and the last ones before that were not too long after TT was released. That is NOT enough sample size to mean ANYTHING. If you had even rudimentary knowledge of statistics, you would know that. Just look at SR, and imagine if instead of the primary mode, it was a secondary mode like TT. Now, SR has good patches and bad patches, but what if it was left to rust for 5 years straight, then riot tried to "refresh" it with a bad patch or by not addressing the actual issues at all? It too, would slowly died and fade away into obscurity.
No ranked ladder to generate interest in more competitive players such as myself.

I'd say that I've thoroughly dismantled your argument, and at the least, you ought to reconsider these things. I'd also recommend debate class so that you learn to make your point while accounting for the valid points of those you object to.

RetiefNov 10, 20191 votes

If you go back to s3 or so, how often was aram updated compared to 3s? AFAIK, arams and 3s were treated pretty similarly back then. Unfortunately, arams got popular while 3s never really caught on.

GelsominoKillerNov 9, 20191 votes

Considering Riot hasn't touched TT in 5 years, the resources saved by removing it are literally zero. Also they could have implemented a data-driven approximate balancing, just like Aram recently.

The problem with TT is that it is perceived by a large portion of the player base as a mini version of the rift, and so they say they'd rather play the original.

ZephyrDrakeNov 9, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Considering Riot hasn't touched TT in 5 years, the resources saved by removing it are literally zero. Also they could have implemented a data-driven approximate balancing, just like Aram recently.

The problem with TT is that it is perceived by a large portion of the player base as a mini version of the rift, and so they say they'd rather play the original.

Zero... sure if you don't count just maintaining the mode online, having to test champions on the map to make sure the game doesn't break in half when those champions are used in said map, having to test every single major change done to the game in general and to the champions or just under the hood type of things just to make sure that the mode doesn't implode in itself. If you don't count any of that then sure the resources saved are zero indeed.

Do you seriously think that you can make changes yo any game and not actually have to test them in every single mode of that game? Regardless of whether the changes apply to that mode or not? You can change ANYTHING and it's bound to break things that you would just be left wondering "how?"

ImTheJuggernautyNov 8, 20191 votes

{quoted}

What it comes down to is what resources do they have and what is the best way to distribute them. Nobody is going to argue that TT was left to rot years ago, but it only got to that point because even when they gave it attention and a full VGU it generated no interest. Now we have things like TFT and their other games coming and 1) it makes little to no sense to put any resources in a dice roll on TT where history has shown the odds are not in their favor and 2) now need the extra server space with all these new things coming. Servers space is not cheap. Especially ones that have the capacity to host an extremely large game like LoL and 3) it is becoming an eyesore and is in desperate need of a full VU again which they just cant justify doing. They are trying to keep the game look fresh and modern

It's check and balances that decide the outcome. I'm sure if you surveyed TT mains then 99.9% of them would want it to stay, but that is only one factor of many.

I mean what incentive is there to play TT versus SR? No quest rewards, and a million bots. If only they found a fix for the bots, I'd play. If they fix the bots AND the gave quests, a lot more people would play. And please, can people get this "resources" argument" out of the picture? Sure, riot doesn't have infinite resources, nonetheless, they are a multi-billion dollar company with multiple projects. I'm sure they can spare a little love for TT.

I mean, I just tried TT for the first time in a way the other day. I'd have loved it, except that everyone on my team and the enemies were dang bots. I'd play way more if not for that. Also, if they gave it a ranked ladder just like SR. Even if there wasn't a pro-scene, but just a simple 3 or 5 tier rank system. Bronze - Silver - Gold. With some simple rewards, then i'd be happy to invest more time. I'm a ranked incentive type guy as well. I rarely use my time for norms, and if I do, it's aram for a little switch-up, because it's quicker, different, and no bots.

But TT is also quicker, and different, but the dang bots ruin it. And lack of ranked or quest incentives doesn't help.

Ariel the CruelNov 9, 20191 votes

TT had a ranked ladder...

gibedepusib0ssNov 8, 20191 votes

{quoted}

What it comes down to is what resources do they have and what is the best way to distribute them. Nobody is going to argue that TT was left to rot years ago, but it only got to that point because even when they gave it attention and a full VGU it generated no interest. Now we have things like TFT and their other games coming and 1) it makes little to no sense to put any resources in a dice roll on TT where history has shown the odds are not in their favor and 2) now need the extra server space with all these new things coming. Servers space is not cheap. Especially ones that have the capacity to host an extremely large game like LoL and 3) it is becoming an eyesore and is in desperate need of a full VU again which they just cant justify doing. They are trying to keep the game look fresh and modern

It's check and balances that decide the outcome. I'm sure if you surveyed TT mains then 99.9% of them would want it to stay, but that is only one factor of many.

The "full VGU" wasn't nearly as polished as the one for SR and was just a band-aid. People wouldn't even be playing SR anymore if it got the amount of attention TT got. It's gotten how many gameplay changes since the VGU all those years ago? They left it to rot, of course people are going to stop playing it. But now it's our fault for not engaging with a broken experience.

What's the excuse for the removal of Dominion, then? That game mode had a large popular following, but still Riot decided to axe it.

What's the excuse for not bringing back Ascension, Hexakill, Nexus Blitz? You know, those game modes that pretty much everyone enjoyed about a million times more than urf.

Riot makes very poor decisions and then blames it on the community. Their only focus is pushing the monetization of the game. Pushing people to buy little legends, coming out with a new skin line almost every month, now their Overwatch and Hearthstone clones coming out, if they can't aggressively monetize it they're taking it out back, Old Yeller style. TT is just the latest casualty of this, along with the rotating game modes previously. Why do you think the last 2 game modes we've gotten besides urf have been directly tied to a recently released line of skins?

Sire HippingtonNov 8, 20199 votes

Game Night Loss:

This is the biggest issue for me. Whenever 2 off my buddies played LoL regulary, we would play lot's of TT. Beeing full premade is just much more enjoyable than anything else, and getting 5 man together regulary and on a similar skill level is near impossible, while getting 3 is quite managable.

Though since nearly all my buddies left LoL because of how shit it became, getting even a 3 man has become tough...

BrothaNov 8, 20195 votes

When Ekko was released I knew he'd be my number 1 favorite champ. Unfortunately I was not naturally skilled with him. I typically played early game powerhouses and Ekko has always been (and always should be) weak sauce early game. Ranked was unforgiving, normals had him pick or ban. Thank God for TT. I spammed him, became mediocre with him, and now I dare say I am decent with him. I learned the importance of item spikes in TT. I made friends who have long since quit in TT. Granted I stopped playing TT a bit ago, between the bots and the immense difference in skill level between players due to a lack of players I had to retire. The map has so much potential if only Riot would sink some love into it, but unfortunately they'd rather axe it. Keep fighting the good fight sir, and regardless of what happens at least we can look back knowing we appreciated that map for all it offered.

Handy Sandy Nov 8, 20193 votes

but if tt is so good why does nobody play it

yal really gonna reach this far for a dead game mode lol

CaptainAntiHerozNov 9, 20193 votes

item 3170 QUICKLY SEND THIS TO SUMMONERS RIFT

Lørd øf the VøidNov 11, 20193 votes

my friends first tought me league on TT, It was much easier to understand and get into (no Drakes, less macro, etc.) I am happy that I had the chance of getting into league with TT Chogath

BraneranNov 9, 20192 votes

I remember season 1, when i started playing i only played 3vs3 alone it wasn't confusing like 5vs5 i was only thinking in 5vs5 only by one lane cause they were so far appart. So i was pushing my lane nicely in 5vs5 nobody came suddenly my nexus explodes wth. In 3vs3 you are much aware of the other lanes, even ranked 3vs3 with premades was fun because nobody took it to seriously. Eventhough now i mainly play 5vs5 and tft it woud be a shame if 3vs3 would be gone.

KVbqbFsC8eNov 9, 20192 votes

The true value is that it contains so many account leveling bots. When it's removed we will see even more bots in 5v5 co-op vs AI and ARAM.

7charsNov 12, 20191 votes

Yeah those bots have to move somewhere and my best bet is ARAM. Maybe its already happening because i hear people from lower MMR meeting bots more often

Zan420swagNov 11, 20192 votes

me and like 6 of my friends will be pretty sad about this going :(

AG1337Nov 14, 20191 votes

TT is actually me and my friends' favourite map, its a completely different experience from summoners rift. We're really upset it's being taken away, is there even a reason? I can't imagine it costs riot money to keep it, does it?