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Is Riot still under the impression that Zilean's rework wasn't garbage?

Karcist·6/23/2015, 11:00:10 PM·150 votes·6,588 views

To preface, I played a over 800 ranked games with Zilean between Season 2 and Season 4. I've gotten a chance to use his rework quite a bit, and I can honestly say its terrible. Nobody is using Zilean right now, at all. He's not even a little bit fun to play. The most fun thing about him, his E, got completely gutted. The potency on his E was barely increased because of the existent movement speed increase and decrease caps, yet its duration was cut by more than half. Zilean's rework seems like a Cass style rework in the sense that they threw some awful ideas together, and just said: "you're going to like this, and even if you don't you actually do".

Also, nobody likes his stun. His stun doesn't go along with his theme at all. Nobody likes his passive either, it offers nothing for gameplay and I honestly have no idea how it hasn't been changed. Nobody likes the changes to his E. This is because his E is actually less potent until level 14, which it then has massively reduced duration.

I can't think of a single reason why somebody would like this lazy rework, and I have no idea why Riot would think that anybody would either. Its terrible, poorly thought out (if even thought out at all), and leaves his theme as a time mage more muddled and fucked up than it previously was. Please put some more effort into champion reworks. If you don't care about a champion then leave them alone. Atrocities like this rework aren't excusable anymore and should never happen.

103 Comments

Dr Doppler6/23/2015, 11:04:08 PM37 votes

As much as I agree with this thread, I doubt it'll get any attention from Riot because its about Zilean.

PhoenixSlayer136/23/2015, 11:15:39 PM24 votes

How does the stun not go with his theme? It's a time stop.

LICENSED HOOKER6/23/2015, 11:48:27 PM13 votes

Hey man, atleast you can stun someone if you already land an already impossible clock! ___-

OyddAWqJ5r6/24/2015, 9:28:22 AM10 votes

Stashu be like, well what if we put more mechanics on it?

#Patch 5.13

Time Bomb

  • Landing bombs now refreshes Rewind's cooldown
  • Landing a bomb while Time Warp is active doubles the duration
  • Heightened Learning's experience boost effect is increased by 0.01% every time you land a bomb
  • Rewinding now heals Zilean for 20% of the damage taken in the last 4 seconds; comboing it with the bomb Rewind resets lets him sustain in prolonged fights

Stats

  • Base health lowered to 100 (+5 per level) to compensate for the extreme excess of mechanics completely necessary buffs to his Q.
Arch Mage Magnus6/24/2015, 4:11:40 AM9 votes

Zilean needs to buy Ekko's device off of him. It's way better than actually having the complete ability to control time. I have to agree though; I didn't play a ton of Zilean, but when I did I had fun, until the re-work.

Passive - Completely garbage. It's basically only going to work on the ADC, because levels 1 - 6 are the ones that really matter. The experience gain is so minuscule, I don't even notice the difference.

Q - Time bomb is hard to hit unless the opponent is slowed. The speed at which the bomb is thrown has got to be the slowest skillshot in the game. On top of that, it's not even instant damage, UNLESS you couple your W with it and manage to land another one somehow. Also this grants you a 1.3 second stun? Really? That's it? You have a better chance landings Ekko's stun, and it lasts longer.

W - It's needed to land 2 Q's in a row. They could do hundred different abilities here instead that would work better for him. It's only use is to lower the CD on his Q and E. If Zilean was redone today, it would at LEAST have another passive added onto it. Having an entire ability that is used just to lower the CD on 2 other abilities screams laziness and old.

E - Aside from his ult, this is the only reason to play Zilean. It works for him.

R - This is his bread and butter, and it's still awesome, if not kinda broken.

They need to change his passive, Q and W to something that is meaningful to the character. This honestly probably won't be done for about 2 years; not joking. I think Riot was sick of seeing him banned or in every game last LCS, SIMPLY because of his ult. If his current abilities were being used last season, I honestly don't think you'd see him at all.

2pudge1cup6/24/2015, 1:51:15 AM7 votes

I did respect old zilean a lot. You had to think about which targets to boost/slow and how to properly use that ult in a fight. Plus his range was shitty so he had to get in the danger zone to do much.

However, because he was largely point and click, he was on the list of "if this gets played we shove a rework through the pipeline" from riot. Lo and behold he got played and then got the rework treatment.

Reynard the ƒox6/24/2015, 5:34:41 PM6 votes

I like how the post about the shiny new champion and his shiny new quotes gets a Red post that says "Ha-ha! We really are great here at Riot, aren't we?"

But then they could care less about this thread.

To be fair, Kench's quotes are great indeed, but that's well beside my point.

TheHypeGoku6/24/2015, 5:25:51 PM5 votes

I think Riot is under the impression that any of their reworks aren't garbage, tbh.

Abyssphere6/23/2015, 11:09:39 PM5 votes

Apparently they think reducing the cost on his W to 0 will solve his problems.

BastionKross6/24/2015, 1:43:12 PM5 votes

Zil's got several problems:

  1. That passive is boring, and it it barely feels like it's even there. I can't believe they didn't scrap this with his rework. Maybe something that involves his auto attacks, since they're pathetically the only thing you have left to hurt someone with when two bombs are on the field.

  2. The AoE stun is a powerful, excellent teamfighting tool.... in the rare case you can actually pull it off. That should be what you're aiming for every time you throw two bombs at once, but it's harder to hit two bombs on the same target in a melee than it is to parachute onto a dime in a hurricane. Make the bombs prioritize targets with a bomb on them over everything else.

  3. W is weak. It used to serve a necessary purpose when it gave you more of Zil's ult, but now it's just there to make you throw two bombs at once. Here's an idea, we get rid of his W, and make his Q have an ammo system like Vi's E. The ability to lob two bombs at once is retained, while freeing up and entire ability slot for whatever.

  4. E should come with an attack speed boost/slow in addition to it's movement speed modifier. Or you could have the duration extended when Zil lands autos on a slowed target. Or you could add some kind of passive here. Just something other than a simple slow down/speed up.

Erockandroll6/23/2015, 11:17:14 PM4 votes

Increase the Acquisition range of his Bombs, making a fair Zoning tool, all while prioritizing champions. About the only use his Bombs have at the moment is Wave clear, and that's not enough.

SouL1ess6/23/2015, 11:45:55 PM4 votes

You mean how the new Zilean kit requires 205 mana just to trade like any other support, and is very much underpar if you can't land the stun at all?

Gr8 kit m8 8/8

Doctor Dyment6/23/2015, 11:25:43 PM4 votes

Well, it wasn't necessarily a full on rework, more of a tinkering around with his skills and giving him better textures and particles. Now, not to try to belittle Zilean or anything, but not many people really used him that often before. He was always kind of an oddball pick that had a strange kit that was fun to use, but always kind of felt... off. I don't know. But the biggest problem with Zilean was the fact that he could just instantly place bombs unto you that chunked your health bar, so they "fixed" that in a way by making it more difficult to actually hit the bombs. I apologize that he isn't fun anymore because you can't Q someone, pop your W, then Q them again and spam your laugh as they limp back to their turret with a ticking time bomb above their health bar, but that's just the way things are. Wait a bit, or if you don't want to do that learn to play another champion. I am truly sorry that you cannot seem to grasp these simple concepts, but please feel free to ask Riot for something that will never happen.

Cloud Potato6/24/2015, 8:27:12 AM4 votes

Zilean needs more to do. His kit is, I want to say, underloaded? He shouldn't be Thresh tier by any means, but considering that W only lets him use his other abilities more, P is useless, and R is mostly used for reacting to the situation, Q and E are not enough for Zilean to do and he spends too much time doing nothing. Thresh, while having more abilities that do things, has an on hit effect that lets him contribute with basic attacks while everything is on cooldown. Zilean has nothing like that, just positioning so he can throw out his slow Q in a good spot.

Possible fixes are a Passive that lets Zilean do something while waiting on cooldowns, or lowering Q's cooldown so he can create a minefield for the enemy to avoid (probably needs some nerfs to compensate, but worth it if he can land stuns easier + has more to do).

Rrett6/24/2015, 5:47:18 PM4 votes

They think veigar is in a good spot so I suppose they do.

Luner Hunter6/25/2015, 8:53:49 AM3 votes

Rito still thinks the Sona "rework" after 27 straight nerfs wasn't garbage

JAGMAG6/23/2015, 11:17:12 PM3 votes

ive played him allot and i think the rework solved one of his biggest issues which was is laning phase was overaly opressive. that said yes i do feel like he is weaker overall but i still enjoy playing him im just more selective about which games i play him in becase in the right comp hes still strong ie: a team with the pony in it or an assassin that goes in well but not out i also find him to be a decent counter pick to morg idk why but i always do well against morgs as a zil

soliznoel6/23/2015, 11:58:33 PM3 votes

i think part of the reason he isn't played is because his kit is completely boring, throwing out a bomb every ten seconds just isn't fun(to some people). I feel like they should've given him a new E or a new passive, but then again his E kinda of fits his theme of being able to speed up time or slow it down.

FistOfSharkiesha6/24/2015, 1:04:40 AM3 votes

On top of everything OP said he's also impossible to itemize. One offensive ability that's fairly easy to dodge and almost impossible to hit both Qs, especially later on when everyone has 450+ MS.

the tl;dr issue of Zilean is that his lategame is horridly pathetically weak and his early game does not make up for it in the slightest. He's outclassed at every step of the game, in every way.

MarhsallLee676/24/2015, 1:54:38 AM3 votes

Riot has like a Zilean years to fix his rework. I'm sure they'll get around to it.

straight4free6/24/2015, 2:20:27 AM3 votes

My Zilean Rework:

Passive (NEW) "Broken Chronology": Every 8 (subject to change) seconds, Zilean receives a buff which causes his next non-ultimate spell cast to invoke no cooldown.

Q "Time Bomb": unchanged

W (NEW) "Temporal Shift": Zilean creates a circular field on the ground which slows all enemy projectiles and speeds up those of allies. Standing inside the field extends the duration. Interlocking fields have bonus effects.

To elaborate, I'm thinking if an enemy projectile passes through an area of interlocking fields, it is stopped in place until one of the fields dissipates.

If an ally projectile passes through interlocking fields, it duplicates for an additional 25% damage. Something like that.

(( Bonus points if there is a clock hand ticking around the circle which slows when Zilean is inside ))

E "Time Warp": Movement speed change reduced to 50%, leveling up increases duration.

When cast on allies, AoE haste.

When cast on enemies, AoE slow.

R "Chronoshift": unchanged

Narog6/24/2015, 3:21:21 PM3 votes

"you're going to like this, and even if you don't you actually do" this is like riot like to do everything now days

YoungFarmer6/23/2015, 11:58:06 PM2 votes

Wait did you just say the cass rework was bad?

Sky Shadow6/24/2015, 8:01:03 AM2 votes

Going to have to agree with this thread... However my biggest issue with him isn't his E, it's with his Q.

I have a serious problem with his Q and it's cast time to ground activation time.

It seems like it's really delayed. It's got an arch to it, but when it actually lands on the ground, it feels like it doesn't actually become active until 0.5-1 second later. So you can literally throw it spot on someone or near them enough to magnetize and they can just simple walk out before it becomes active.

Not only do you not do any damage, but it takes a significant portion of your mana, especially early on.

I get that it can't be the way it was before, but at least have the activation upon hitting the ground be instant.

Conturbatio6/24/2015, 3:03:27 AM2 votes

Oh, and did you check his win ratio? 45% with 0.28% popularity. His new Q is garbage, why the hell turn it into a skillshot anyways, it's also buggy and feels clunky. And his E only lasts 2.25 seconds at all ranks? The only thing I liked about his rework is his ult's new CD (36 at max rank) since that's the exact duration it takes to get his next ult ready with 40% CDR while spamming W each time it's available. But that's not worth it, he's really bad now, worse than ever.

BigPooStorm6/24/2015, 11:35:58 PM2 votes

I literally have not seen him in a game once since the rework, no fucking joke.

Riv x Kobe6/24/2015, 11:54:00 PM2 votes

I'd like his stun if it was actually possible to land.

And as a side: How does it not go with his theme?

KayVaugn6/24/2015, 10:01:32 PM2 votes

In all honesty I do find zilean fun to play, but I only play him when I don't care if I win or lose because I know he isn't in a very good place right now. It is still fun for me to actually play him and I have played zilean pre rework and I think he's a lot more fun to play now although if you want to win then probably better to play someone else.

Gafugarion6/24/2015, 11:16:07 PM2 votes

Worst rework of a champ I've seen honestly. Olaf wasn't this bad! He needs a grounds up rework with all new abilities because this isn't cutting it. Its not fun to play and it hurts your team just picking him.

iainB856/24/2015, 1:06:17 AM1 votes

While I agree they drastically changed Zilean, left him completely non-competitive, and have ignored him for several patches despite promising to monitor him -- the tone of your post guarantees a Riot employee will never answer.

Decrit6/24/2015, 12:51:59 PM1 votes

Might i ask you what do you think about this then? http://champion.gg/champion/Zilean/Middle

I am not being acid or else, i am genuinely curious about your impression about this, since it pictures a different situation from what do you say. I agree that it checks only plays from platinum V and up, so it's not the case of all the players around here, but it does not look like unpowerful as you say.

And i can see that, because while his Q reqork is not the same as before is terribly, terribly powerful: it has an hige area that can be avoided, but it must be avoided first; even the menace of power has power, after all.

ALSO: this is data from previous patch, but i don' t think that between that and current changes much.