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is riot's idea of a juggernaut doomed to fail?

Mens Hair Club·9/12/2017, 2:29:58 PM·10 votes·953 views

riot designs the new ones as big, beefy dudes who hurt hard but cannot engage you on their own terms and have a really low threat range.

but the most successful juggernauts (measuring high elo and pro play) are the ones who ignore the second part. Dr. Mundo, Trundle and Olaf are the Juggernauts that AFAIK have the best track record for pro play/dominating high elo when they're good, if only as niche counterpicks (like Mundo shitting on APs, Trundle becoming god-tier in tank metas), because they can both hit you with ranged attacks and start a fight really well. Olaf also gets to bypass the juggernaut vulnerability to CC. The other juggernaut who fares really well in the top ranks is Mordekaiser, because he doesn't need to bother with melee unless he's all-inning you; both W and E allow him to extend his threat range, and he's extremely good as an ADC replacement in bot. If you want to consider Singed and Cho'Gath, they have the same thing; Cho has the added benefit of being able to 100-0 with ult alone.

Conversely, the Juggernauts who do follow the standard the closest -- Garen, Volibear, Udyr -- are the ones who struggle the most unless they're overtuned or, in Udyr's case, found a new build to cheese with. They have no range at all and are limited to running at you. I would attribute their failure to lack of compensation for what they don't have. It strikes me as strange that Olaf and Mundo have ranged potential permaslows AND ways to reduce or ignore CC, but of the other 3 only Garen can, and only for 3/4 of a second. Voli and Udyr just have to hope you don't notice them so they can get close to you.

Darius has been the most generally successful Juggernaut in soloQ because he doesn't swing wildly between strong and weak like many of his peers. In addition to that, despite not having much range, he can still start a fight thanks to his pull, and he's compensated generously for not having range or CC resistance with sheer damage potential. He's considered the golden standard for Juggernauts, but despite generally being all-around good, I don't think he's ever shown up in professional play beyond Worlds season 5.

So which design is overall better? When we rework or create new juggernauts, who should be the standard? People (usually) find designs like Darius, Yorick and Illaoi more reasonable to play against, but they tend to only show up in higher elo if they're overtuned or it's a VERY beneficial meta for them. Mundo, Trundle and Olaf are far more successful in pro play, but are strongly disliked when they start becoming popular in soloQ.

If it's the Darius or the Illaoi design (telegraphed attacks, not much to get around CC, makes up for it with having lots of healing in fight and/or good poke, depends on you coming to them to fight), how can we make those champions usable in pro play without being OP? If it's the Mundo design (very reliable damage, can start fights very well), how can we make them more tolerable for the soloQ players? Is the ideal design for them somewhere in-between?

pls respond

50 Comments

Ahristocats9/12/2017, 3:09:05 PM4 votes

it's a doomed design

until they stop balancing in plat+ because people expect to "OH MLG DODGE OH WTF" you

deal with it

i said in an other post, if you pick darius in master with me i report you, until you understand that this is what riot wants it to be they don't care about a champion sucking if people are decent against you, you should just stop playing him

play xin instead, he's going to have skillshots xddddddddddddddddddd

Salson9/12/2017, 4:50:45 PM2 votes

I'd actually argue that there are 3 types of juggernaut balance: -Telegraphed but rewarding, the healthiest kind -Niched one, this is when Olaf, Trundle and recently Mundo belong, their uniqueness gives them health -The Jack-of-all-trades, like Garen and Udyr are too number reliant on balance to be truly healthy.

The first and second ones are both good. Meanwhile you play Voli or Udyr based on better numbers.

Garen is the worst example, his passive and Villain mechanic are just asking for a balancing nightmare. Nasus is likewise screwed by himself, infinite scalling is the pubstompiest mechanic there is.

King of Demons9/12/2017, 2:59:14 PM1 votes

With the only failed juggernaut being Skarner, nope. Definitely not.

But judging from your post history you're not here for facts, I'm sorry.

Darkdemon6539/12/2017, 3:37:56 PM1 votes

Riot doesnt evalulate mobility properly. It's far more powerful than they think so champions with high mobility often end up being too strong and champions with low mobility often end up being too weak.

Wet Dryman9/12/2017, 6:11:04 PM1 votes

Our lord has returned under different name. Your main account got banned?

Nea1049/12/2017, 7:33:48 PM1 votes

I'm afraid that "Juggernaut" at the moment are just champions that can severely outdamage "pure tanks" in lane, still being super tanky.

Kloqdq9/12/2017, 8:05:33 PM1 votes

It's a really interesting debate to be had with Juggernauts. By design they very well can work. The main issue is trying to make it work across the whole board. Riot can't just balance in one area and not the other so when they do balance Juggernauts, they need to somehow be fair in both Low, High and Pro. At the end of the day that is pretty impossible I'll say. Low elo clearly doesn't have the knowledge to deal with Darius or Illaoi or those type of Juggernauts while high elo would be able to consider them weak or just fair champions. Most of the time leaning toward weak.

So then you have to figure out what you want to do with them. Darius is weak but any buff is going to have those Bronze 5 players crying for nerfs while the Plat 5s and above of the world will call it fair and reasonable. Most of the healthiest Juggernauts are the ones with telegraphed but rewarding play while the ones the Pros love are ones with solid utility or lasting power. Most of the time Pros favour utility over other elements so a Juggernaut with solid raw utility, but with telegraphed and rewarding kits would most likely be the most successful.

I don't think we really have a single Juggernaut yet that has found wide spread success but I do think it's possible with the current design ideas in place. It's just a matter of combining them together really. How do you mix all these good elementals together to be engaging and fair for players of all ranges. Low elo being the toughest shell to crack I believe.

jwebb01139/12/2017, 2:33:45 PM1 votes

yes cuz the way the game has changed and the new champs that have came out with the high mobility, damage, and terrain scaling anything champ that dont excel at these aspects are old and basically Planned obsolescence

Chembaron Yamada9/12/2017, 9:49:39 PM1 votes

In my opinion, juggernaut designs ala Illaoi Urgot Yorick are the better ones for both sides, they are more interesting to play as and against.

Juggernauts are really tanky and are supposed to deal alot of damage. It's fair making this damage conditional. They can be huge threats, when their conditions are met (Illaoi having her tentacles, Yorick spawning his ghouls, Urgot being able to rotate around you for knee proccs).

Penns9/12/2017, 2:45:37 PM1 votes

Illaoi = juggernaut DrMundo Trundle = [slayer-pantheon-rainbows]