Why do 0 risk champions get kill potential?

Report Team GG·Feb 8, 2015·6 votes·1,538 views

Riot loves to talk about "counterplay" (tm), windows of opportunity (tm), and interactivity (tm).

But look at champions like Nidalee, Ahri, and Lux. Ignore their state of balance. Ignore their state of balance. I said that twice because I'm going to get some idiot who doesn't read that and says something about Lux being balanced.

These champions are incredibly safe which is fine if that's their thing. I don't mind a farm lane or whatever. But it's absurdly frustrating when they're allowed to kill you but you aren't allowed to kill them. They're allowed to outplay you, but you're not allowed to outplay them.

Take Nid for example. Her "window of opportunity" is smaller than the thermal exhaust hatch on the death star. Chosen Master Yi couldnt even hit it if he closed his eyes and believed in the force. Her playstyle: chuck spears @ 1500 range until you have enough burst in cougar to instagib them in less than 1 second. Then do a Michael Jackson 360 and moonwalk the fuck away. Where's the vulnerability Riot? Where's the interaction? There's no interaction in spear spam dodging. Eventually some will hit. There's no interaction in getting execute-bursted from a 700 range gap closer in less than 1 second. Should you catch Nid out or even significantly weaken her? Pounce, pounce, heal, heal, heal. You can't catch nid. You can't kil nid. You don't interact with nid.

Or take Ahri for example. Ahri is never at risk. She's incredibly safe but for some reason she gets great all in burst potential. What? If I cant kill her, why can she kill me? Even if you severely outplay an Ahri, you still can't kill her.

The problem is exacerbated by the fact that if you somehow do get in their face, they still escape with their 1 million safety moves. If a champ can get kills they should have to take risks and "make plays."

Even champs like Zed as safe as he is, have to get in melee range to farm and get kills. And at least there's some counterplay to zed whether you pick exhaust, zhonyas or qss. Champs like Ahri, Lux, Nidalee do not have that vulnerability. If you get in their face (supposedly a weakness of a squishy ranged mage) they CC you/escape with their superior mobility/heal/shield. They have way too many tools to get away if you do somehow catch them when they're supposedly vulnerable. And even then, at point blank Lux, Ahri, and Nid aren't necessarily even weaker. At point blank you just have a chance to hit them a couple times.... But not kill them because they get away with their idiotproof kits

13 Comments

Thanotos OmegaFeb 8, 20153 votes

If you choose to stick around a harass champion after they whittle you down then you deserve to get killed, Lux has to be in AA range for a decent chunk of her damage, and needs you at about 1/4th HP for her Laser to kill you, if you can't manage to find the weakness in that or pull out before she finishes you off that's on you,

Knight SoIaire Feb 8, 20152 votes

i think that's not what op ment

from my perspective the problem is the fact that guys like lux, lee sin or whatever, they dictate the entire interaction to always fawour them, and on top of that they have real kill potential in up fron trades

which leaves us at the point where your entire option pool is limited to waiting for your enemy to make a mistake that you can capitalize on while having barely no options that you can do on your own

they basicaly have the full controll of the game because you cant kill them and the can set you up to kill you

and nidaele+ le e combo is the best example nidaele wont get even into xeraths range which is insanely high until she wrecks him with spears and can oneshot him in cougar without worrying about dying on the other hand lee sin wont poke you hard but he can disengage from anything you throw at him, bah with his ult he can easily stop enemies from killing him 5v1 and just ward hop away, while any time you get low he can ward hop in and make sure he gets his q on to you

these playstyles are innately toxic and lack counterplay (one of main reasons lee is so lcsbigmoney in my opinion, pros dont like to lose so they pick lee who cant be fought unless they allow it, and they allow it only when they win or when they fail)

Report Team GGFeb 8, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Thanotos Omega,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YwXARA7G,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-02-08T20:00:18.909+0000)

If you choose to stick around a harass champion after they whittle you down then you deserve to get killed, Lux has to be in AA range for a decent chunk of her damage, and needs you at about 1/4th HP for her Laser to kill you, if you can't manage to find the weakness in that or pull out before she finishes you off that's on you,

"Harass champion"

All of these champs can burst you from 70%. And no, Lux doesn't use her laser separately.... She combos it with QW. So just the fact that you said that makes me think you dont understand the champion

All of these champs feature 1 sided engagements in which you can't burst them down or catch them out and are subject to their harass.

You can't all in them because they escape too easy. So the only game you're allowed to play is the harass game which they'reb etter than you at.

Zair UmbrasFeb 9, 20151 votes

Talks about how he understands the champs, but doesn't realize Lux's W is a shield, not damage. :P Her combo is Q+E+R. Against an AP champ, it can be zhonya's, against an AD champ, they can QSS and walk out of the laser. :3

Knight SoIaire Feb 8, 20153 votes

Even champs like Zed as safe as he is, have to get in melee range to farm and get kills.

zed is a bad example since he actualy can farm from range zed is closer to being like ahri and nida, he pokes till infinity and never goes oom just waiting till he can all inn you also lets not forget that zed actualy can get qqs and upgrade it

disregardableFeb 8, 20152 votes

pretty sure this guy is a zed main.

Report Team GGFeb 8, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=The AFK Farmer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YwXARA7G,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-02-08T20:17:57.984+0000)

pretty sure this guy is a zed main.

i dont play zed since my mouse broke i've mostly been playing on touchpad. you cant play zed on touchpad so i dont touch him

SmokingPuffinFeb 8, 20152 votes

Or take Ahri for example. Ahri is never at risk. She's incredibly safe but for some reason she gets great all in burst potential. What? If I cant kill her, why can she kill me? Even if you severely outplay an Ahri, you still can't kill her.

Ahri takes risks to generate kill pressure. If she's sitting back playing safe, she has only Q for damage, which is a shorter ranged, skinnier, slower skillshot than similar buttons from other mages. Ahri makes kills by using her ult and landing a charm -- both of these expose her to counterplay.

As it happens, Ahri is pretty overtuned today, but from a design standpoint she was the healthiest assassin prior to this recent rework. She's still very healthy now.

Where's the vulnerability Riot? Where's the interaction? There's no interaction in spear spam dodging. Eventually some will hit.

This is the main complaint about Nidalee, and it's why Nidalee's spear was nerfed big time in her rework. It's still a problem though. Nidalee's basic counterplay pattern is to just survive until she becomes useless, and that's not very healthy.

There's no interaction in getting execute-bursted from a 700 range gap closer in less than 1 second.

Of course there is. You can be tanky enough that you don't explode. You can avoid being within 700 range when hunted. You can use summoners or items to not die. You can bait her into jumping on you at a bad time. You can kill her before she kills you.

New Nidalee's cougar play pattern is actually quite healthy. Lots of reward and lots of risk.

And even then, at point blank Lux, Ahri, and Nid aren't necessarily even weaker. At point blank you just have a chance to hit them a couple times.... But not kill them because they get away with their idiotproof kits

What if I told you that, far from being idiot proof, these are generally high skill champions?

I have no idea how Lux is escaping you, by the way. The other two are fairly slippery, but Lux might as well be a tackling dummy.

Report Team GGFeb 8, 20151 votes

{quoted} post

Ahri does not take risks to generate pressure. She's ridiculously safe and is never in any danger. But should you slip up you die.That's a very skewed risk reward. She's got about average range for a mage, and sure she can get poked out, but she'll never die barring human error. She's got an absurd amount of 0 counterplay damage (fox fire, ult) and gap closing ability. I do think ahri is better simply because at least you can punish her for missing her charm and she's got some counterplay in that but competent ahris tend to back off without charm. Her other skills leave little room for you to outplay her or secure kills. She's low risk at best and no risk at worst for mid to high levels of reward. You have to significantly go out of your way to gimp ahri to bring her down.
First off, summoner spells and items counter everything. That's kind of a cop out argument. Second off, being tanky isn't counterplay and you should reevaluate your definition of counterplay because it's made of two words... not one. It's counter PLAY not just COUNTER. Playwise nothing changed except her threshold for executing you. You don't counterplay nid so much as you hope she's bad and makes a mistake which isn't counterplay so much as it is human error. If you think of throwing a punch at someone as a play, and catching the punch as counterplay.... then human error would be missing the punch altogether which isn't counterplay so much as it is failure. Now having established what counterplay is... Most of what you said is kind of unreasonable. "Just kill her" "Just be tanky" "Just use summoner spells" "Just use items (which probably is the same as just be tanky)". All of that stuff is just generic advice (on the level of "just dodge her spears" that applies to any champ. Nids cougar play pattern is NOT healthy. Cougar form has only 2 purposes... 1) gap closer->execute in 1 second 2) escape/mobility. And bursting someone in 1 second has been something that Riot has been completely against and sought to nerf it out. So I dont know why you think its healthy on Nidalee. Which do you think is healthy? Being uncatchable or bursting people in
Lux is not easy to catch out. If you think 1100 range buffer zone is something to scoff at then you're mistaken. She has the lowest deaths of any mage in the game and it's quite clear that your standard is the one that's fucked, not mine. She has a flash's distance over most any other mage. And I don't know what rating you are, but in any competent elo 1100 range is not easy to overcome (as if just getting in her face will kill her). Furthermore, she has a 2 second hard CC, a shield, an aoe slow, and significant burst that you must overcome in order to actually kill her. You have to kill her while being down one or two spells used just for gap closing

SmokingPuffinFeb 8, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Gay Black Jew,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YwXARA7G,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2015-02-08T23:02:20.230+0000)

Ahri does not take risks to generate pressure. She's ridiculously safe and is never in any danger. But should you slip up you die.That's a very skewed risk reward. She's got about average range for a mage, and sure she can get poked out, but she'll never die barring human error.

Ahri can choose to take no risks. If she does, she's a pointless champion -- you can do a lot better than Ahri Q for safe poke. Ahri has to RE to be a useful champion, and you can't do that without exposing yourself to return fire.

She's got an absurd amount of 0 counterplay damage (fox fire, ult) and gap closing ability.

Ahri W and R both have counterplay. They're just short range, auto-targeted damage spells. It'd be like saying Ezreal E lacks counterplay. They also don't hit all that hard; if you want to play Ahri, you'd better be good at landing the skillshots.

Second off, being tanky isn't counterplay and you should reevaluate your definition of counterplay because it's made of two words... not one. It's counter PLAY not just COUNTER. Playwise nothing changed except her threshold for executing you.

I disagree. If you become tanky, it opens up new plays against Nidalee that you couldn't do if you built glass cannon.

Most of what you said is kind of unreasonable. "Just kill her" "Just be tanky" "Just use summoner spells" "Just use items (which probably is the same as just be tanky)". All of that stuff is just generic advice (on the level of "just dodge her spears" that applies to any champ.

Ask a generic question, get a generic response. You have resources at your disposal; Nidalee is much more annoying than she is good.

If it were easy to explain how to outplay someone, this game wouldn't be very interesting.

Cougar form has only 2 purposes... 1) gap closer->execute in 1 second 2) escape/mobility. And bursting someone in 1 second has been something that Riot has been completely against and sought to nerf it out. So I dont know why you think its healthy on Nidalee. Which do you think is healthy? Being uncatchable or bursting people in

Riot doesn't mind burst damage if there's setup work involved and potential for counterplay. Nidalee has both.

Lux is not easy to catch out. If you think 1100 range buffer zone is something to scoff at then you're mistaken. She has the lowest deaths of any mage in the game and it's quite clear that your standard is the one that's fucked, not mine.

You do realize that you're talking up a champion that is never picked in competitive play and is almost never seen in high elo solo queue, right? Lux has strengths. The problem is, she also has weaknesses serious enough to disqualify her from the lane.

And I don't know what rating you are, but in any competent elo 1100 range is not easy to overcome

If you care, diamond since season 3. Currently plat 2.

Report Team GGFeb 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Ahri can choose to take no risks. If she does, she's a pointless champion -- you can do a lot better than Ahri Q for safe poke. Ahri has to RE to be a useful champion, and you can't do that without exposing yourself to return fire.

Ahri W and R both have counterplay. They're just short range, auto-targeted damage spells. It'd be like saying Ezreal E lacks counterplay. They also don't hit all that hard; if you want to play Ahri, you'd better be good at landing the skillshots.

I disagree. If you become tanky, it opens up new plays against Nidalee that you couldn't do if you built glass cannon.

Ask a generic question, get a generic response. You have resources at your disposal; Nidalee is much more annoying than she is good.

If it were easy to explain how to outplay someone, this game wouldn't be very interesting.

Riot doesn't mind burst damage if there's setup work involved and potential for counterplay. Nidalee has both.

You do realize that you're talking up a champion that is never picked in competitive play and is almost never seen in high elo solo queue, right? Lux has strengths. The problem is, she also has weaknesses serious enough to disqualify her from the lane.

If you care, diamond since season 3. Currently plat 2.

right, being diamond doesnt make you understand design philosophies. being diamond means you understand decision making and mechanics not game design. just another example of terrible logic and intellectual short comings.

OH LOOK WHO JUST GOT EMBARASSED BY THE PATCH NOTES.

RIOT: Even in their description of Ahri they said her risk reward was skewed AND THEY EVEN MADE HER GET IN CLOSER range. They specifically made mention of Ahris risk reward.

Just the fact that riot completely shit on your argument is proof enough you have no idea what you're talking about. Just the fact that Riot confirmed what I was saying is proof that in the context of this game and it's balance philosophies shows that you're bronze in that respect.

"It's safe to say that Ahri's return back to her kitier, mage-ier (that is a word) roots has been a success, but her new-found mobility has left her feeling a tad overbearing. For someone that skirts the edge of fights so well, Ahri wasn't taking enough risk for the reward (less dashing in, more dashing out). Forcing this fox-girl to walk the line for her guaranteed damage makes expert use of her Orb-speed and Charm, which is where we'd like to leave her feeling - skillful and satisfying to play, but vulnerable when making mistakes."

specific nerfs targeted at her safety: 100 range nerf to both her W and R.

GG. embarrassed. Confirmed no idea what he's talking about.

EDIT: items and summoners dont mean shit. a counter has to be reasonable and feasible. just demonstrates further your inability to grasp concepts. beta tf was countered by Banshees/QSS/teleport. beta jax was countered by sword of the divine. if shens E CC'ed for 1 minute, it would still be countered by QSS. but is that a reasonable and feasible counter?