Can we remove Ward Hops?

4nth0l0gy·1/28/2015, 1:30:55 AM·88 votes·5,399 views

It's a neat interaction, but at the end of the day, it's half of the problem with Lee Sin. At least without wards, he can't just produce a second gapcloser at will via . It forces him (as well as Jax and Katarina) to react to the map and their team.

What do you guys think?

Edit**: So I see a lot of people posting about how removing ward hops takes some of the fun out of playing Lee Sin. What I would argue in return is that ward hopping, while fun for the player, is not fun for his opponents because of the extreme, non-situational mobility it provides Lee. What are your thoughts on this?

93 Comments

lojician1/28/2015, 1:43:32 AM27 votes

Riot was going to do that at one point but then a bunch of whiners that abused ward hoppers bitched at them until they gave up. And then of course they found out ward hopping made for #LC$BIGPLAY$ so they're never going to touch it again.

Keevalroy1/28/2015, 1:32:22 AM20 votes

That would negatively impact Lee Sin, so there's no hope Riot will do that. It's a good idea, but they feel the need to protect their pro scene mascots.

Miku Lv1011/28/2015, 1:58:34 AM10 votes

I think the game would be overall better off without them. I mean, there are 2 types of gap closers, freely usable and situational. It turns one that was situational into a freely usable one. As in, less variety of different strategies by allowing players to do too much. And most ward hoppers seem to be a combination of either annoying, OP, or both.

SmokingPuffin1/28/2015, 2:56:47 AM9 votes

Ward hopping is way too fun to remove.

I'm all for balancing stuff, but not at the cost of fun.

straight4free1/28/2015, 1:32:16 AM9 votes

I think that, at the very least, the trinket ward should not be target'able. If this has the side-effect of making it invincible so be it, but Lee and Kat got huge buffs with the introduction of the trinket ward and that clearly wasn't the intention.

Silver salvation1/28/2015, 12:54:14 PM5 votes

My question is why is ward hopping allowed on champion skills that allow positioning? Why Not allow Lulu to cast pix on a ward if Lee sin can literally reposition himself over a wall? Lulu already misses out on the shield just like lee sin had to be changed to make acceptable. Why can't braum leap too a ward if lee sin can? Why can't all these other champions use wards as a valid target while lee sin is allowed to jump and make "LOL big plays look at lee sin send riot money" plays off a mechanic that is almost exclusive to him?

Cupkek1/28/2015, 2:25:16 AM5 votes

Sweet lord that would be amazing.

You mean to tell me I can actually successfully gank a Katarina/LB/Jax without them pressing the "teleport away" button? I would LOVE that.

The Red Warden1/28/2015, 6:03:04 AM5 votes

They could just make it so that they can still ward-hop but only to wards that were placed by an ally and not themselves. This would still allow for the "BIG PLAYZ" but would decrease their effectiveness if they don't have teamwork.

Basically this would keep it available for big play$ but would almost remove them from solo que where they are very annoying. It would also add decisions and more opportunities for teamwork in the game; two things Riot always likes too talk about.

Cupkek1/28/2015, 2:26:29 AM4 votes

Frankly, I hate blink champions. They are such an irritating thing to play against.

The worst part about Kat in particular is that she doesn't lose anything during an escape. She's resourceless and can blink out at the drop of a hat.

ANNOYING. NOT FUN.

LoLKiru1/28/2015, 1:53:43 AM4 votes

I think ward hoping itself is fine as a concept, it can make for some very interesting plays.

That said I think some people should be able to do it, and some shouldn't (Talon for instance, I think should be given the ability to since he lacks any other forms of mobility; whereas Lee already has multiple forms of movement and self-peel)

Purple Label1/28/2015, 4:05:57 PM4 votes

If anyone between Katarina, Lee Sin, and Jax, it should be Lee Sin. Lee Sin has two abilities to re-position (three if you count is his ult). I've been playing Katarina since day 1 and ward hopping successfully (ward hopping at all) is what separate good and bad Katarinas. Shunpo is flash jump from Bleach - it's thematically fitting to be able to jump to wards, lanterns, minions, or J4's spear. Shunpo simply means blinking from place to another if there's a waypoint. Just like Jax's jump, you're jumping a target than can be jumped on. Katarina is a feast or famine champion. If she's getting kills like she's supposed to be, then she'll have the extra gold to purchase wards. If not, it's more likely that she'll rely on her trinket. Like I said, ward hopping separates good and baddies. Yes wards give Katarina a second chance at living and re-positioning, but whether or not they use it to their advantage or throw it away is another story. The starving Kat will have to either use the trinket to help the team or help herself. I buy about 16-18 wards per game; that's 1200 gold if I bought 16. Katarina doesn't have a decent early game at all, so all of you who are complaining about the trinket giving Kat an immense power -- you need to play Katarina yourself at mid. It's perfectly fine the way it is. She gets bullied in lane easily, she's also item dependent - leaving no spare gold for wards. Whether the Kat uses the trinket to ward the bush or save it for a Shunpo requires good judgment from playing Kat. Ward hopping also punishes greedy enemy teams when they should be pushing rather than chasing, offering counter play.

Regarding Lee Sin's ward hopping option, it doesn't make sense. Also the user that said if Lee can hop a ward, why can't Lulu shield a ward? Because it doesn't make sense to shield a ward for either Lee Sin or Lulu. Lulu is in lane with the adc and minions for the most part of the game. Positioning Pix on minions or enemy champions isn't impossible. If you can't position Pix well yet, that means you haven't played Lulu long enough to position properly.

For those who really dig Pix, one of the changes I'd make with Lulu's Q (GlitterLance) is that reduce all of Q's effects by half (CD, mana, slow, damage). What's the compensation? Her Q shoots Pix into the targeted area. Pix grants vision and whatnot. The short CD will allow you to fire off Q again. I also believe this follows with Lulu's tag team theme with Pix. Re-position Pix back and forth to harass and slow. You should be shielding an allied minion or champion, not a ward.

Overall, ward hopping is fun and adds a nice niche to the game and champions. Honestly, complaining about ward hopping will only screw the game in the end because the more we strip kits, the way we win will become more binary. (League method of winning is already binary in itself since Season 5) When talking about balancing, adding, or removing, please consider the bigger picture rather than your frustration.

Cashlaundry1/28/2015, 7:15:37 PM4 votes

If you look at ward hops from a game design perspective you have to ask yourself.

Is there counterplay to ward hops? Very few champions have the ability to counter multiple engages so the answer is mostly no when it is used as an engage. When used as an escape it is actually slightly less good than other dashes and has just as much if not slightly more counterplay than other escapes.

Do ward hops add depth for both the player using it to chase/escape AND the player being chased/chasing? When a champion is using ward hops to chase/engage it adds absolutely zero depth for the champion getting the ward hop used against him and in fact reduces game play depth because you can dodge Lee's Q but not his ward hop and it also reduces the depth for the Lee Sin player using it since it reduces the meaningful choices he has to make on the fly, assuming he is using his trinket and not a purchased ward, and also because it cannot be dodged. When used as an escape it adds depth for both the champion using it and the champion chasing.

TL;DR Ward hops are bad game design in the current implementation.

Orangesilk1/28/2015, 2:47:02 AM4 votes

It's not even a skill thing, I've had an allied Lee Sin actually place a ward at my exact location and jump to it, it turns out he had his ward and his jump keyed to the same key with some fishy software.

BlackSunNocturne1/28/2015, 7:12:44 PM3 votes

But, muh big plays!

All joking aside, yeah it's kind of stupid. They should be removed.

Jasiwel1/28/2015, 4:36:18 PM3 votes

They could at least increase the cooldown if Lee Sin uses that ability on a Ward.

Aheadatime1/28/2015, 6:08:02 PM2 votes

Yeah I agree. I don't think ward-hopping was ever intended, regardless of which champ were talking about. It is too reliable and has no counterplay. It would be a huge step in the right direction balance-wise to remove the feature altogether.

ZeroAnarchy1/28/2015, 3:07:16 AM2 votes

Sure why not, let's also remove every other cool mechanic that this game has. If Lee Sin gets any nerfs, it should be his numbers,

ModKnightsKemplar1/28/2015, 11:53:05 PM2 votes

I agree with your edit and original post. As a frequent kat player, as well, I gotta say, this is a good change. I have always thought this was stupid, and it needs to go. If they need "compensation buffs" (my new favorite league phrase) because they lose ward hop, fine. Just buff 'em back and call it a day.

Kats Pajamas1/28/2015, 10:35:18 PM2 votes

Ward hop on kat, is double the distance of flash. Why would you ever call that 2 flashes, when it's closer to 3?

Skias1/28/2015, 8:32:28 PM2 votes

I've been campaigning for ward hop removal since Lee came out. It's a bug that should have been removed.

Vantooth1/28/2015, 5:34:45 PM2 votes

I second this, and I really want a rioter to see this and finally make a change to hit some big problematic that have been here for so long but left untouched.

Ragnorok6161/28/2015, 3:17:16 PM1 votes

Lol you people complain, I want you all to play lee sin, and stop your bitching, ive tried and tried and tried, he takes a hella lot of skill he aint easy in the slightest to pull off those pays it takes a lot of god damn practice, and you want riot to nerf it because u cant handle the fact someone practiced enough to be able to get good at ward hopping etc etc?????? like cry more seriously you guys are pretty sad