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Counter jungling and game results

djjomon·8/31/2015, 3:00:59 PM·16 votes·2,305 views

Silver V jungle main here. So yes, my opinions are biased. Let's get that out of the way now.

Often in games we'll have that early game jungler, who counter junglers hard and looks for picks. Say, XinZhao, LeeSin, or Shaco. They grab their first buff, and sneak over to enemy buff and either steal that too, or kill the enemy jungler at their 2nd buff. Perfectly viable strategy, nothing wrong with it.

From here, the good junglers will keep pressure on the enemy jungler, ward their jungle, and continue to deny them. Just yesterday this happened to me. I was 0/5 at 10 minutes, constantly getting killed in my own jungle. And my usual attempt to catch up didn't work.

The problem, however, was that the enemy Lee Sin (5-0 off me keep in mind), didn't use his pressure effectively. He wasn't ganking, he wasn't interested in global objectives. He just wanted to kill me. Yeah, free kills. I was feeding. If I were him, I'd do the same thing... I told my team "Lee no lane pressure, he just wants to pick me." My lanes proceeded to win, and when Lee finally decided to gank a lane, he chose top. So our bot lane (who had just gotten a double) and I took tower. And dragon. From here, I took control of my own jungle again, started team fighting, and played an objective-oriented game. I went from a 0-5 Olaf to becoming a team player with a terrible KDA. We won.

I see this trend a lot. Of course, I'm Silver V. So I naturally pull worse players. As I myself, am not so great (my winrate is abysmal). tl:dr: Quite often, one jungler loses out early to counter jungling: getting picks on the enemy, 3 buff starts, losing both Scutttles, etc. But they don't do anything with it.

Is this a trend you see as often as I do? Higher level players, I assume this is more of a low MMR trend. Share your thoughts.

Downvotes always welcome

29 Comments

Power Cosmic8/31/2015, 6:04:18 PM8 votes

Everything is a decision. If you choose to do one thing at a given time, you cannot do something else. I know that it's a "Capt. Obvious" comment, but still a good reminder.

kurthl33t8/31/2015, 4:04:48 PM4 votes

As a fellow Silver V-er, I definitely see a lot of players who don't know how to counterjungle. I've seen it be an effective strategy at higher ranks, but it's not something I would recommend for players like me who only get in about 6 games a week.

For the lower-ranked or less-experienced players, I would really recommend learning how to control your own team's jungle and practicing ganking before attempting a strategy that requires much more map awareness and objective control than is typically found in Silver and Bronze.

:twocents:

Earl Eulrich8/31/2015, 4:13:52 PM2 votes

yea, you see that very often from junglers that they only know how to snowball but have no idea about vision/objective control...so even if they get the lead they will often lose when their laners/support can´t carry them through midgame. It´s a thing you can see in any elo.

most junglers don´t even respect that counterjungling is not sth. the jungler does by himself, but sth. that relies heavily on map-pressure - if you try to counterjungle bot while your mid+botlane are pushed in it´s pretty much suicide. Sure, if the opponents have no map-awareness sometimes you get away with murder, but if they are any good their lanes will collapse on you and thank you for an effortless kill.

DoFr9/1/2015, 12:10:06 AM2 votes

here's some tips, more often than not, you could tell if the enemy jungler wants to counter jungle you, they're the likes of LeeSin Vi Udyr Shaco XinZhao Khazix Rengar

now, let's say you play a champ that requires and normally start gromp and into a blue buff (this is mostly for tanks) tell your top/bot to leash you red, smite red and you gain health back without using a potion, and then get raptors and wolfs, now when you go to wolfs, smite it so you can get vision

mostly, since you start red, when they go to your red, they'll fine it's gone and realize they have wasted their time, and then take raptors, and go to wolfs and smite the wolfs, so when they want to go to your blue, your wolfs will expose them, however if you're playing a champion that starts red buff chances are, you're too strong to be counter jungled, but that won't stop them, so here's what you gotta do.

Start Red, and then get wolfs, and then get blue. but before you start blue, ward the bush that behind blue, the one between the river and the road leading to midlane. if you have enough health, take scuttle, AND REMEMBER if the enemy jungler took scuttle and you were low when you got spotted by the scuttle ward, just go to the nearest tower, and recall under it, grab your jungle smite item. and you're good to go.

if they wanted to counter jungle, and you played with this pattern, meaning each time they wanted to counter jungle and got spotted, they will run away, and thus, they have wasted time to come all the way to your jungle and do nothing.

while you kept farming and didn't waste time, this is how you get gain the adv.

and remember, wolfs are your friend, smite them when the game is neutral, or when bot or mid is losing.

SelflessTeammate8/31/2015, 6:57:31 PM2 votes

It really depends on the jungler and how much they farm versus how much they gank. You can't just let a farming jungler (i.e., anyone with Devourer) run amok in the jungle and get Sated as soon as possible.

So, since I play Evelynn quite a bit, this doesn't really matter too much, because all she really does is gank, and she does it super-early, almost immediately after the first clear (since she doesn't really need Flash, she can bring Ignite for that extra push for the more-difficult ganks). She can use Red, but she doesn't really need Blue, so just taking those when they come up is useful, but not even really critical. Especially if you go Rylai's+Liandry's, like I like to do, for a stupid amount of slow, extra health, and some extra damage over time.

There's almost no reason for a Shaco to counter-jungle as a specific objective. Yeah, they can, but it's not necessarily a better idea than offering your lanes the pressure he inherently has, instead. Owning the jungle doesn't necessarily mean you own the lanes, which a lot of Shaco players don't seem to get. They can feed off me all game even if they succeed in every single attempt and clean out the whole thing if they truly want to take the time to do it, but with little to no lane pressure into late game (where Shaco doesn't exactly shine), they're still playing risky that way.

Just sorta depends on how badly you need the farm. Not a bad idea to counterjungle someone who's trying to go Sated, but for its own sake, not really, unless it's right there and literally on your way to or from a gank.

Too Ton8/31/2015, 5:09:41 PM2 votes

Yeah unfortunately in my games the counter jungler continues to snowball. I wish my games were like yours. 0-3 amumu useless vs fed lee or xin. . . or irelia

Sentinel Hydra8/31/2015, 8:31:27 PM2 votes

Maybe this isn't the best strategy, but what I do when I'm jungling is(asShaco ): Step 1: Take my blue/red buff in 10 seconds with boxes. Step 2: Walk over to near the enemy buff. Step 3: Decieve in, and wait in the bush/ take the buff. Step 5: Kill the enemy jungler and take the buff/take his gromp. Step 6: Look for any easily acsessible lanes; eg. pushed and/or half health or lower Step 7: Ward enemy red and camp it/Gank a lane or get your blue Step 9: Kill enemy jungler again at his red/ Get scuttle crab or gank once more Step 10: Recall,Shaco is suprisingly resilent with his boxes; and you should be able to get an upgraded jungle item and a item 1037 at this point.

Always remember to take his jungle camps: They deny him gold, and if he tries to take yours, then you have a better chance of finding himin your jungle than you do in his. This probably isn't the most practical strategy, as Shaco is extremely good at ganking and I only gank 4-5 times in the early game (Before everyone starts grouping for drag or turrets), but it's really fun and should make the enemy jungler somewhat useless and make him cry :)

Specter0279/1/2015, 8:45:10 AM1 votes

Sometimes I have a ton of Counter-Jungle creeps because I'm crushing the enemy jungler and taking his Chickens, Doggies or Buffs repeatedly. So it can be a sign of winning from jungle. Sometimes I play Nunu or have a good Lee Sin or Eve game where I can live in the enemy jungle.

It can also be a sign of things going poorly for you.

For instance, early game, my laners are pushed. I'm on red side at my fountain. I've got an idea enemy Jungler has recalled as well, and will head from fountain towards a side lane due to lane matchups. I try to set up a counter-gank. I see top has warded but bottom hasn't, so I'll take my wolf camp and head down there. I ward bottom bush for them and creep a little ways towards enemy chickens. Enemy Jungler appears top, walks through a ward, kills my top laner 2v1. He and top push in wave, top recalls, jungler disappears, presumably to his frog and dogs. My mid and bot are still pushed. I've got no gank. I'm on wrong side of map to pursue enemy jungler into enemy jungle and clean him up. My only play is to take his Chickens and Krug, leaving a baby chick and a bash bro up. I'm now up 4 Counter-Jungle minions, but he's given advantage to his top and got himself on the scoreboard. Long term advantage him. Maybe I drop a ward in his jungle, but it's not worth a ton as I know he's either going to head top to return gank or head to the only side of his jungle that he thinks has minions in it after he recalls.

Meanwhile my laners are still pushing, auto attacking the creeps and not warding behind them. I openly question my decision to not play a AFK farming Devourer Jungler cause that's all my lanes are giving me to work with. So I clear my gromp and head to my red side jungle. I ward for top and farm, waiting to help him out if enemy jungler return ganks. I see enemy jungler with the ward I placed earlier. He cleared his baby chick. I'm at my chickens. I start loop back to bot, but enemy jungler beats me to the spot and ganks, killing one of my botlane mates. I can't 2v3, remaining botlane friend is spent. I head for enemy doggies and frog. I take these and try to drop another trinket ward. I recall to spend. The vicious cycle repeats itself. If I'm lucky laners will pace themselves and practice better discipline, wave control and minion management. Mostly I'm unlucky and a flurry of "Missing" ping land on me while at their wolf camp or "GG No Jungler" is soon stated by a member of my team.

And that's how I wrack up a large counter jungle score while losing and being ineffective.

Also, I'm not in a game or at an elo where organized dives are a thing that work out well.

Dr Poro8/31/2015, 5:11:22 PM1 votes

Lee Sin specifically falls off hard lategame, so if he doesn't pressure the lanes or secures dragons, yes, you'll have a chance to win in the end. Also note that in this situation, your laners won their lane. If they didn't, it would end in a big stomp for their team. It's really important to note that one player being fed or feeding hard doesn't determine the outcome of the game because there are 4 more players per team. If the rest goes even, then yes, that will be the deciding factor, but if your botlane for example is 6/0, then you still have a great chance even if you're 0/5 and don't give up. That's probably a big mistake often made especially in low elo: When people start losing their lane, they think the game is lost. It isn't. You can get carried by your team, just like you can still lose even though you win your lane. But if you give up and intentionally feed or afk, then you can't. It's really important to keep trying. Of course, if by 20 minutes the team score is 6/30 and they have a 11/0 vayne, then it's gg, but a lot of people just give up too early.

That's why IMO early game champions suck at this game, atleast in soloQ. In competitive plays where they make coordinated tower dives and pushes, early game is way more important, but on the ladder, just play your lategame hypercarry and come back from an early 0/8 after 30 minutes because you start outscaling your enemy.

About your specific situation (I don't jungle often so mainly speaking about laning), if you get counterjungled and you're behind so hard, just saying to your team that you are behind and won't be able to gank/need help warding jungle will help a lot. If your teammates play safer, it's hard to snowball that advantage as a jungler to lane. In higher ELO they'll probably help pushing turrets down or taking dragons, but if they start towerdiving it'll either increase their lead but it can also be a big throw if they are overconfident (and lack of communication in soloQ). TBH I don't see that much counterjungling in high ELO apart from the "I see you in toplane so I try to sneak away some jungle camps on bot side".

Ralanr8/31/2015, 6:36:57 PM1 votes

As someone still learning the jungle, this thread intrigues me.

Ternt8/31/2015, 6:59:31 PM1 votes

I am a Silver (4-2, bounce a lot depending on the week and players) Jungle main also, and honestly this post is a lack of knowledge on the Lee Sins part. Yeh, you gotta deny the enemy jungler sometimes, but only when it's viable to do so. When I play versus Sated Junglers, I will go for a gank then go to their jungle to place some wards and get a camp or 2, depending on which side of the jungle I am on. Also, if I am clearing my top side and I see you bottom ganking, you better expect your top side jungle to be gone when you return. Deny resources is more vital than getting 5-0 on somebody sometimes. I've been playing jungle for about 7 months, and one common issue I see in my elo is that when junglers don't understand that 2-3 fed lanes is more important than YOU being fed. It took me about 5 months to realize this, and I immediately went from Bronze to Silver when I recognized the fault in my jungling. Once I stopped trying to carry every game or get super high KDA's but started empowering my teammates to win games, it was an immediate difference in outcomes of games. Most of my junglers have on average 3+ more assists per games than kills.

Jungle has been super frustrating lately with Sated, as now everybody thinks they can jungle. Jungling is more than just getting 30 stacks and racking up 20 kills. And I see a lot of people who pick Jungle ahead of me go for this and fail miserably. Because they are playing versus somebody like me, who knows that 80% of Sated junglers are new and cannot manage resources well and refuse to gank. Sated Junglers have tunnel vision, where they NEED DEM 30 STACKS, and most times forget to gank. Which in my mind means, I can absolutely camp lanes, %%%% the camps outside buffs and raptors and just get every single lane fed to the point where you getting Sated means %%%%. And if you do show up to lane and we beat you in a 2v2, I will farm your jungle while you're on death timer to deny you even further.

I looked you up, and you play champions I hate! :P BUT, you buy wards, so I immediately respect you. Kudos to you sir.

TurquoiseYoshi8/31/2015, 7:17:25 PM1 votes

I played as a counterjungler for the first time a couple days ago. The way you do it is you get kills, but most of the time, you bring an ally to get fed in lane. A fed laner is a lot more important than a fed jungler, as the laner can push the advantage a lot harder by getting the extra lane kills.

Scrimshäw8/31/2015, 10:39:08 PM1 votes

whoa silver v, is everyone on their knees already or just me?

Budupops9/1/2015, 1:51:45 AM1 votes

stopped reading at silver 5

blaming ur jg as often. disgusting