Why do Marksman have steroids?

YGW Caspie·11/19/2014, 6:49:49 PM·4 votes·1,365 views

Why aren't steroids unique to the Melee Carry? Isn't the reliability and safety of range more than enough strength for a Marksman? I feel like it would actually be interesting if there was some reasons to pick a Melee Carry and support bot lane over a Marksman and support or even double bruisers for that matter. I'm not saying one should be stronger than the other but rather that it would be interesting to see diversity in strategies.

If a Marksman needs steroids why not have it so they would have to rely on supports or other champions/items to give them steroids, so things like Zeke's Herald, Nunu's Bloodboil, and Janna's Shield.

This is just a design question that I've been wondering about, so please enlighten me and let's have a discussion.

EDIT: I'm not saying Marksman are too strong or that I'm sick of the ADC meta (if that is even a problem) but what I'm sick of is the lack of diversity in strategies. The question is more why isn't there meaningful differences between Melee and Ranged?

17 Comments

Kuroi8611/19/2014, 7:31:01 PM5 votes

Marksmen have steroids because it is what makes them marksmen and not AD mages. Their steroid gives them the ability to make their auto attack significantly stronger, thus creating the first ADC. Melee ADC can still work, they tend to have good gap closers and decent burst that many ranged ADC don't have, it's a matter of strategy and working with your support to get to the point that you can fight without getting poked too hard.

k wìx11/19/2014, 9:24:51 PM3 votes

Your initial topic is asking several questions that all have unique answers...

Why aren't steroids unique to the Melee Carry?

Steroids aren't unique to the melee carry because of how champions are designed. It really just varies from kit-to-kit, but many champions have steroids - it's not because they are or are not a carry or melee carry. Take a look at Dr. Mundo, one of the best steroids in the game for his auto attack, yet it has nothing to do with his role. Why have it? Because of theme and lore.

Isn't the reliability and safety of range more than enough strength for a Marksman?

If your talking competitively with the current set up? for the most part, it seems not. A large portion of the roster has gap closers, and flash is always a threat - so for the most part with how the game is fundamentally balanced, steroids are in many cases required to stay competitive. This isn't always true, however, certain ranged champions bypass this with stuns or cc effects. Ashe is a fantastic example.

I feel like it would actually be interesting if there was some reasons to pick a Melee Carry and support bot lane over a Marksman and support or even double bruisers for that matter.

Yes. And you totally can, and totally win games. I play ADC Yi and win games in high gold/ low platinum all the time. It's just not popular and frowned upon, the meta of league is very 'set' and its playerbase generally loathes when someone tries to play a champion in a role they are not designed for. The meta is constantly shifting because of smart players tweaking and breaking the established meta. Support Morgana was HUGE this season, that was a meta shift for the 'offensive support'.. Champions like Zyra, Xerath, Lux who can poke an ADC out of lane are getting a place. If you want to see changes in the meta - do it yourself :)

Between Fiora, Yi, and Yasuo, League has some melee 'adc' champions, but I truely would like to see Riot come out with a melee adc champion - designed to be played bot lane with a support. Would be super cool and start breaking up the rigid 'only ranged bot' rule so many players go by.

PokladnicaZla11/19/2014, 6:53:54 PM3 votes

ADC meta is still better than the Assassin meta...

Rebonack11/19/2014, 7:23:12 PM2 votes

Lucy's passive is more or less akin to Riven's except he can't stack it and she never has to worry about running out of mana. it's very much an AD Caster sorta skill, not a steroid. Steroids are, pretty much by definition, pop and forget. Lucy needs to keep using his skills in order to take advantage of it.

Hullabaloo90711/19/2014, 9:36:12 PM1 votes

Every marksman has a steroid of some sort. Its what makes them marksmen. The steroid is also what makes a melee adc a melee adc rather than an assassin.

ShinBlades11/19/2014, 6:51:48 PM1 votes

because either tanks are strong or adc are strong. both cant be strong. and there is more counterplay for adcs.

Sightless6611/20/2014, 2:41:55 AM1 votes

To begin with, having supports giving steroids would be a very poor design decision. Things like Zeke's and Bloodboil are some of the least interesting support effects in the game. Janna's shield is the most interesting one, and that's because it isn't a straight steroid. Just as a support player, I have to say that I'd absolutely hate it if my role was just to buff a carry. I have much more interesting things I could be doing. There is a reason you never see any support player asking for support Nunu to be buffed back into viability. We do not look back fondly on our memories of winning games by spamming W on Caitlyn until she killed everything for us.

I would stop playing support entirely if my main job or even any part of my job became to provide a steroid to another champion. That is boring. I do not want to be a stat-stick for someone else. If you want to talk about unsatisfying gameplay, that is pretty much the definition of it right there.

Isn't the reliability and safety of range more than enough strength for a Marksman?

Nope. A basic facet of autoattacking is that it doesn't do much damage unless you have scaling mechanisms. Range and safety doesn't do much if you don't actually hurt. From a design standpoint, it is good that they have abilities and functions that support their key gameplay. There are carries without steroids or without strong ones like Lucian, Kalista, Graves, Sivir. That's fine. However, there is no reason why ever adc should have to follow that same pattern. There is no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to function off of autoattacking alone. Right now, there are multiple niches that carries can fill. Removing that diversity would be a very poor plan.

What melee carries do have is stronger steroids. No ranged carry except Vayne has a flat AD steroid, while tons of melee AD carries have them, and nothing a ranged carry has equals Trynd's 35% crit or Yi's E. There is a difference in potential offensive output.

The question is more why isn't there meaningful differences between Melee and Ranged?

There is a meaningful difference, and that difference is one of the reasons that double melee isn't going to work. The reason we don't see melee carry with support or double bruiser lanes isn't because ranged AD carries are inherently better than either of those classes. It is because they are inherently better for duo lanes than either of those classes. There are two main reasons. First, range is always going to be a massive advantage in duo lanes because it gives you a huge advantage for sustained trading. It also guarantees that you can farm if you're behind, which is important because a duo lane is extremely punishing if you ever fall behind. That's not due to steroids, or anything else. It's just range. You could (and I do) play Annie or Xerath or some mage and get just as much advantage. But, despite that, we don't see any double mage bot lanes. This is due to the second reason.

The second reason, and the more important one, is experience. Bruisers and mages need experience to function. So do melee AD carries. Ranged AD carries only need gold. This is huge. If an ADC and support are in a passive lane and get to level 6 without kills, the ADC can make do just fine with just a BF sword worth of gold. He can make something happen. A mage can not. If you have two level 6 mages when the solo lanes and jungle are level 7-9, those mages are screwed. Their potential impact is gutted. The same happens with bruisers.

If you want to see more diversity in lanes, you aren't going to get it by just nerfing AD carries. It won't change anything unless you nerf them enough that they aren't worth playing at all, and then you'll just have the next least exp-reliant class played with a support instead. You're not going to make double melee lanes happen just by nerfing range. If you really want it to happen, you have to mess with the way exp is assigned and you have to come up with new game systems that would reward different bot lane compositions. Just trying to nerf a class won't solve this problem.

Rebonack11/19/2014, 7:14:17 PM1 votes

Some of 'em don't. Ashe and Cait both come to mind. Technically Lucian doesn't have one either if we're only counting things like IAS boosts, AD buffs, and resist shreds.

ValyrianBlade11/19/2014, 7:23:33 PM1 votes

Well first, your damage carry should be ranged. If you build glass Cannon you're going to get killed quickly if you're accessible. A ranged champ can do damage while out of range from receiving it, a melee carry has to put themself at risk to do damage. Thus, ranged damage is superior from a team perspective.

When it comes to steroids, why not? It adds variety. You can have this super consistent marksman without steroids or have one who is weak when it's on cooldown and strong when it's up.

Consider tristana versus caitlyn in a duel. Tristana pops her q and decimates caitlyn. Or caitlyn baits tristana's q previously, then wins when it's on cooldown. It means both champions can beat the other, rather than it being a straightforward line of A deals more damage than B so A always wins the fight. I'm ignoring power spikes at different stages of the game for simplicity here, but my point is that as long as a marksman is balanced with other marksmen, a steroid is not a bad thing to have in their kits.

Hayaishi11/19/2014, 9:32:18 PM1 votes

Because there's not a ranged ADC that can cheat death or become invulnerable.

Ranged ADCs don't get free crits, or double crits or free armor pen.

If those are not enough for you then you're playing the wrong game and should go and play Dota.