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Why is the game balanced based on the "the pro scene"?

Kuma No Neko··3 votes·1,555 views

There are tons of champions that need nerfs or changes no one disagrees on that, but it seems they only nerf someone if they're literally broken or a pro team wins does good with them. And certain champions that need buffs coughGnarcough won't get buffed until they're destroyed on a pro match. A champion like Yi 'needs' to be nerfed other than just the devourer being nerfed, which I agree with. Do I think there's literally zero counter play to Yi? (almost) no, but he's not just stronger than other junglers, he can kill an entire team in seconds unless he's stunned which everyone on the forums just screams at anyone who says he's overpowered but then they forget there are 4 things in this game that turn off stuns, Banshee's,Cleanse,Scimitar, and Morgana. And really what champion isn't useless when stunned, it's not a unique weakness to Yi but Yi has more counterplay to it than a lot of champions do. He has his Q which you can't stun him during, not jokingly he moves too fast for some CC and can't be slowed, and he has his 70% damage reduction channel that heals him for 110+ health per second and he does true damage every attack. And to finish the Yi part of this post, if stuns counter every champion (they do) and one is more powerful than every other jungler when not stunned, they're overpowered.

Gnar was also one of my favorite champions and I still like him but he's not even close to viable, his Q was never a great harass and his only damage was in his W which is pretty weak and I thought I was the only one to say "Gnar has no damage and literally the lowest defense stats in the game and his tank-mode doesn't let you do damage if you max damage, but if I build tank I'm always tank and I have respectable damage" and he was somewhat viable if I built Atma's on him but obviously he was still only useful in the late game for his Ult and in the early game for his kiting but my point is that I have no idea how anyone could argue that Gnar is powerful against anyone but Shyvanna and he falls off late game like a skydiver in October.

This is just a few of the examples, there are tons of problem champions because they're too weak Gnar Quinn Talon Xerath Zac or because they're too strong MonkeyKing Tristana MasterYi Warwick Malzahar And the only ones that get changed seem to be the ones that get played in pro matches

26 Comments

Dominick Destine4 votes

Because you don't balance for people that do not know how to play the game; you balance around people that do.

Gnar is already incredibly powerful and could even stand to get a few nerfs, not buffs.... Wukong too strong? rofl, this is why you are bronze, sir.

Kuma No Neko1 votes

How about instead of just saying "xd ur wrong noob kek lol get good bronzi" Actually give an argument for why these champions aren't over or underpowered, if they aren't, that's why ever "le bronzie" thinks they are because no one actually wants to argue for their position instead they just say "wow duuude just stop being bronze..." Here's one of the millions of reasons Wukong is over powered The closest comparable ults are Malphite's,Katarina's and Fiddle's and obviously just because his ult is better doesn't mean he's better than these champions and they all have their own uses, but Wukong is a tanky bruiser, where as Katarina and Fiddle are full damage dealers

Malphite's ult does have the advantage of being more sudden but it does 400 base damage, Wukong's does 351 base damage per second(only 49 less if you didn't want to do the math), knocks up in a bigger area and if you account his invis and dash it's almost as hard to see coming as malph's. Not to mention it scales better

Fiddle's ult's only single advantage is it's slightly larger area I believe but it is also easily stopped before he starts, he does 'not' gain a move speed buff like Wukong's, and it only does more damage if Fiddle has 810 AP or more not to mention it doesn't knock up(and it does the damage over 5, not 4)

Katarina's only advantage is that it does it's damage in a little over half the time and she can get a reset on it, which is a good advantage, but it does not knock up,it can be disrupted, it is in a smaller area, it does less damage and she can't move during it

Want any more reasons, if you want to have an actual debate about this I'm all for it

disregardable1 votes

Well someone just lost a lane against a Yi as Gnar.

Yi doesn't need a nerf; you need to learn how to play against him. Gnar doesn't need a buff, you need to learn how to use him.

Kuma No Neko1 votes

I played Gnar in ranked the second he came out with only a custom match to test his abilities as practice, and I went 16/1/12. so I believe I know how to play against him. Udyr,Warwick,Trundle,Jax, and possibly Quinn absolutely destroy Yi but that doesn't mean he's NOT better than every other person that those 4 people also beat on

Decimus1 votes

I kind of disagree on Gnar and Quinn being weak. Top lane their both outstanding lane bullies against melee bruisers and its hard to find times to properly grab a kill off them as Gnar can always hop out and Quinn can either blind or create distance with her E. These two champs always give me a difficult time when I'm playing Riven/Irelia/Renekton

Kuma No Neko1 votes

Yeah they're great fun to play and they're not broken-weak but they're just not viable as Xin Zhao,Yi,Warwick,Fiora,Jax,Pantheon,Fizz,Malzahar and basically everyone can just jump to them and kill them in seconds

Cale0171 votes

Because the pros are the ones who know the game better than we do. It might not be something you necessarily want to hear, but you also aren't getting paid to play League. If /anyone/ is going to be able to reveal problems with champions, it's the pro scene. This isn't to say that Riot ignores what happens in your standard normal or ranked matches, but the entire community knows what happens during pro games and what champions curbstomped what others.

Kuma No Neko1 votes

The thing is, pro teams don't play every single champion and then win or lose as every single champion, they play as 10-20 champions, and since they're a team who has practiced coordination and reaction every second of their lives and has absolute 100% skill as every champ, they play whoever counters what the enemy picks, not who's strong right now. Like with Ziggs, he wasn't a problem to beat at all for half the game but they nerfed him however long ago because someone in a pro game did good as him apparently

Cale0171 votes

They're also picking those 10-20 champions based on how effective they are. If the same champion is being picked more and more often, it's a sign that Riot needs to look more closely at them and determine exactly why they are. If it turns out that they're being picked because they have a particular item they do too well with, or an ability that is scaling too hard, or something to that effect (that's rewarding someone for picking a champion more than for playing them) they then step in and make the appropriate nerfs. On the other hand, if a champion is getting no love from anyone, they can adjust that champion accordingly. Maybe their base mana is too low (Sejuani) or maybe they have a skill that could use some help to hold up against others who fill the same role.

Riot doesn't just adjust based on the pro scene, but the pro scene is where it's easiest to see why certain champions might be doing better than others and why some others are doing worse because it's an environment where any small change made can have a much larger impact than the other 99.999% of the userbase.

Kuma No Neko1 votes

Then where are the Urgot buffs (I can beat tryndamere!) or Asir (moving counters me and my ult hurts my team!) or Talon (Now if I don't insta-kill the enemy I have no chance of escaping!) or Zac (I can... get large distances in a short time?) All those champions don't get any love. And yes I understand that pros are pros and the small changes that they issue like .2 extra mana regen and 0.1 less AS make game changing differences but there are only so many strong champions they will pick, but those 4 champions are still in the bottom of the champion list with everyone laughing at the fact they even exist and Riot's not done anything about them except that small buff to Azir

Cale0171 votes

Urgot is meant as an anti carry. You have to work to make him viable.

Azir is meant to be countered by anyone who can move that well. A champion can't be amazing in every single aspect. He gets what he loses in mobility back with lane control and ranged harass along with excellent escape mechanics. He's a niche pick. If your team doesn't support his style, he won't work.

That's the whole point of Talon's kit. He's an assassin. Either you get the kill or you get screwed.

Zac... yeah. I agree. Zac needs some love. Hopefully he'll be getting it with the upcoming adjustments for tanky junglers with the next patch.

But you can still see the odd Urgot main do well. The odd Talon main who kept using him even after his silence was removed? They'll still get doubles and triples. And the heartiest of Azir players will still make your life a living hell in the laning phase and turn the tide of a teamfight with a well timed, well positioned ult.

Not every champion is meant to be equally viable in everyone's hands. Case and point would be both Nocturne and Skarner for me. They've never been considered power picks, in fact Skarner is widely regarded as being worse off after his rework, but I thoroughly enjoy playing them and I've learned a few small things here and there that help me play them in ways that others wouldn't expect you to see them. Ways they can move across a map or ambush an enemy. Learning the exact point where you have enough damage to go in on that 1v2 and leave with the double or when you need to back off. Hell I still saw a Zac not too long ago, had Secret Weapon Zac so he clearly had a lot of love for the champion, and he did absolutely amazing.

Buffs and nerfs are there to make champions remain viable at large, but the truest of mains can make someone work even after they've been nerfed all to hell. The recent rash of Riven QQ threads is proof enough of that considering how badly she was hit with the nerf bat earlier in the year.

Kuma No Neko1 votes

"That's the whole point of Talon's kit. He's an assassin. Either you get the kill or you get screwed." The only two assassins I can think of that don't have an escape to use after a kill or if a kill fails are Rengar (though he can just jump to a minion or monster so it's situational) and Nocturne if you consider him an assassin. Every other assassin champion I can think of has an escape or two and do more damage than Talon (Zed,Fizz,Kha Zix) Talon was fine when he had his silence and the only thing they really would have had to do was get rid of the damage amp, but they removed the only thing real thing that put him above Zed and removed the amp as well to add insult to injury.

And yes Urgot is an anti-carry and he can be useful and if you read his kit he's really really powerful, but in practice he has an alright laning phase and you need to go real fast and hard in it to even be a useful tank in the late game, his ult can be really useful but it's completely countered by any flash or dash unlike Warwicks' where the only thing that can counter it is a spell block that you use before he even ults or knocking him back but that also works on Urgot, and both of their ults put them in the enemy team, Urgot's giving him resists but Warwicks' giving him about 500% of his HP back as lifesteal, the difference being Warwick's is more instant and does damage, Urgot's just has the 'potential' to get someone stuck in your team but if they flash or dash out he's in the middle of the enemy team not defending his carries and if they don't you're in the same situation but you have one of the enemy team in the same situation.

Zac's only real usefulness was a tank with tons of mobility and disrupt, but they got rid of his damage and a tank without damage and only 2 mini-knock backs as hard CC isn't that great and I played Azir when he first came out and tried jungling and mid laning as him, as jungler I died like 5 times before getting a kill then proceeded to carry my team without ever using my ult because it is only useful in escapes really, and I have never once gotten any use out of his passive really. As mid I tried to harass and he has the potential to harass more than anyone in the game, but if you choose to do that you will lose all your cs and even then it's still not too hard to avoid as the soldiers attack in a line with a cast time, so you can just keep walking and rarely get hit and as long as you're not near the minions he can't farm very well, basically Azir has stupid as heck broken damage but it's probably the most simple thing to counter in the entire game

Cale0171 votes

Akali doesn't have an escape. Diana doesn't have an escape. Akali and Diana's ults both work similar to the passive you're talking about for Rengar, but an entirely situational escape mechanic like that doesn't help much. Katarina's only counts if she happens to have a friendly unit nearby or a ward to drop and hop to. Most assassins in the game lack free escape mechanics. Kha'Zix and Zed are the only two who can flat out leap over a wall to get away if they have to, even Fizz can be caught up with although chasing a Fizz is never a good idea.

The extra bonus armor and MR isn't reduced by a flash or a dash. The 40% slow isn't reduced by a flash or a dash. The damage isn't reduced by a flash or a dash. The only thing that a flash or a dash helps with when you get pegged by Urgot's ult is getting out of the situation you're in, which if you have a team that can follow up on you well enough won't happen as they'll point all their CC at the spot the enemy is going to swap into to lock them down and take them out.

You've clearly never tried to play AP Zac. It's gimmicky, but he becomes nigh unstoppable so long as you don't get locked down. His damage can amount to crazy totals with a good bit of AP and some spell pen/reduction. He has a mini knock back but a significant knockup, and two rather powerful slows. 4 slows, on top of the slows already in his kit, if you factor in a Rylai's Crystal Scepter. I've gotten plenty of use out of his passive, it's saved me many a time with turret dives or in teamfights, when they waste everything on the jumping Zac and are then torn apart by the team while I pull myself together.

Pull myself together. Heh.

Yeah, he can harass better than most in the League, but the soldiers are there to be as much of a threat as they are to be harassment. Just put them in the middle of your enemy laner's caster minions and you're denying them farm with the risk of getting poked by his spears while giving yourself free reign to close some of the gap and get last hits yourself. Keep in mind that his soldiers can actually farm AND get hits on the enemy with proper placement.

Just because you can't understand champion designs doesn't mean that they have to be buffed or nerfed. When they start causing an issue is when that happens, not just because you find someone to be useless.

Zanathax1 votes

Riot takes all levels of play into account when they decide on buffs and nerfs. It has happened many times in the past, and will again in the future. Do pros and highly ranked streamers have more influence than an average player? Sure they do. Gamers imitate them. If they come up with something that works well, thousands and even millions will imitate them. That takes things that were maybe not well known for a long time and puts them in every other game you play.

Gnar is absolutely not underpowered. He has well defined strengths and weaknesses. Calling Yi OP is silly. Like seriously silly. Can he get fed and be a late game terror? Sure... here's a hint - don't feed him. Jump on him early game and mess up his rhythm. He's a melee carry, so he's a late game champ. If you let him get 3 or 4 completed items, he's going to start curbstomping your team. Stopping this means hunting him down in his jungle, taking his farm, and otherwise messing with him in the early game. A fed Tristana, Vayne, or Lucian can destroy your entire team every bit as easily as Yi. So can Jax. Akali. Zed. Rengar. Kha'zix. Heck, the list would require me to put down half the champs in the game.

Lastly, If your favorite champs have problems against specific enemies then the game is likely designed for that to work that way. Literally. Despite what the newbs will say, certain champions are designed to counter other types of champs. Maybe get better at your own champions and find strategies that allow you to deal with those counters instead of coming on the forums and begging for buffs and nerfs?

Lwnt1 votes

Yes for vanye, tristana and lucian can destroy a whole team but u can counter them easily with cc. But for yi he is extremely hard to counter late game. His ult makes him immune to slow making impossible to run from or to get. Most champion have slow as their major cc. His q makes him untargetable and its spamamble which is so annoying for targeted CC. Thornmail doesnt even work on him because this stupid item doesnt take in crit damage and the damage that coming back at yi is being healed back from his lifesteal. So even if you stack up with randuin and frozen heart it might let you survive a little longer but he has true damage in his kit that just ignores Armour. Most squishy are like dead in like 2 autoattack from him. When team fight comes everyone trying to focus yi but his lifesteal keeps him alive on top of it his other 4 member are attacking us while we are all trying to stop yi. Yi = like 5 champion in late game (that how strong he his). Lastly when playing with yi is like you are racing with the clock you need to finish the game before yi makes it to late game. Other champion it doesnt feel like that.

Kuma No Neko1 votes

I loved Gnar and I do good as him and still do good as him but I've noticed it's only because my enemy's have been bad not because Gnar is powerful or I'm a master with him, but half the tops in the game counter him due to his extremely low base stats and if you build damage that's obviously just not as good as say Kalista,Quinn,Vayne,Kog or even Teemo and you'll get bursted in your mega form. And if you build tank with him you're still squishy as hell even in your mega-form, I tried building him tank and the only way I could get to a respectable level of defense is if I only went with one damage Item and I preferred Atma's because it worked better with his Ult, and if not I would go Wit's because it gives more damage than BoRK,makes his W more useful and gives him MR. And on the topic of Yi, yes if you completely shut someone down in the early game they will do bad other than ADCs pretty much, that's not a Yi unique trait, just like stunning. If everyone in the game is weak to these things, then the person who's strongest when these things are not present and also easily avoids these things is overpowered.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

Most of this post is wrong.

Probably you should spend less time thinking about balance and more time getting good.

Killstrado1 votes

Just saying xerath can E W Q most champs to death from full health lol try playing better. gnar and talon need nothing either, zac on the other hand needs everything

Gigahappytown1 votes

Talon xerath weak? kek wukongs a solid pick at best

the game is balanced around diamond~lcs because its a competitive game and those are the best of the best and most competitive players

Kuroi861 votes

It's not balanced simply around the pro scene, but around the highest tiers of play, Challenger, Diamond, maybe even Plat to a degree.

AetherKingdom1 votes

bronzers thinking their opinion on balance matters

Kuma No Neko1 votes

riot can do no wrong anyone who think different is bronzie unless muh pro player says so

AetherKingdom1 votes

Nah, Riots fucking stupid actually. And anyone who thinks gnar is bad is bronze or stupid (which go hand in hand).

Kuma No Neko1 votes

summoner 3

AetherKingdom1 votes

item 3410

Pryotra1 votes

Gnar has an incredible amount of damage, so no, I don't think that he needs a buff. Perhaps you should learn his mechanics. During his ranged form his DPS is incredible, so you should harrass in lane with that often, as it counters most melee. Flip side is his tank form, which should be your "all in" mode as it is pretty resilient.

Yi is pretty binary in his playstyle, so just save CC for him, or just burst him on sight in teamfights (this is why you ward, so you can see him coming and maybe catch him early). He is also hardcountered by thornmail, so there is that if you are struggling against him.

Xerath too weak? We really must be playing different games. He does a good amount of damage at pretty long range. Try attacking from orbit with him, and build AP.

Poppy is not "too strong" unless the game lasts longer than 45 minutes. That said, pre 15 she is hardly able to exist. Smash her early and she will struggle all game.

Malz is pretty balanced right now IMO, as is Zac and Quinn, believe it or not. Quinn just takes getting used to, as she is not your average ADC. Zac and Malz are fine though, and you just need to learn their rhythm.

Wukong is fairly balanced imo, as while he has good damage for sure, his sustain is rather low and his clone is pretty obvious. As he needs to effectively be face range to do his damage, I would say he is fine.

Talon I haven't seen recently, but I don't feel he is on track atm thanks to his loss of silence. As for WW, I think the preseason jungle is more to blame for his current state over his actually power level, as his main strength is that smite in particular is too synergistic with his ult. Give riot time to tune this jungle before we judge here.

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