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AP Shaco: A Year in Review

Pink Ward·12/27/2017, 8:24:50 PM·289 votes·23,987 views

This is about the AP side of Shaco only and how the changes to him, whether it be to better the AP or AD side, have affected him.

AP Shaco has been my bread and butter since Season 1. I have clocked in over 7000 games of Shaco, if not more, throughout all of my accounts. Currently, AP Shaco is in one of his weakest states he has ever been in. With my extensive knowledge of the game and the champion, I'm able to make him work well, but I feel, given how high the skill ceiling is, it isn't rewarding enough to be viable. I will be going over the pros and cons a year after the rework to analyze whether the rework was better or worse for AP Shaco. I will then give my personal thoughts on what should be done with the champion.

Old Shaco vs REWORK:

All Examples are Shaco at level 18 with 125.5(126) AD, 100 AP, 40% cdr. 1.00 Attack Speed, everything rounded.

  • Backstab

Pre Rework:

Shaco's passive, Backstab, increased the damage the target would take by 20% from Shaco's auto attacks, Hallucinate's autos, or Two-Shiv Poison when hit from behind. These were Shaco's main sources of damage. As Shaco's autos would do 20% increased damage, this meant the guaranteed critical strike he got, through Deceive, would also critically strike. Two-Shiv Poison's AD ratio and AP ratio were also improved by 20%.

Current:

The rework brought in a completely new passive, taking the Critical Strike off of Deceive and putting it on his passive. His passive now causes attacks from behind to critically strike. This critical strike will hit for 130%AD(+40%AP), increased to 200%AD(+40%AP) with a cooldown of 3 seconds, reduced by cooldown reduction.

Pros/Cons

Pros Guaranteed 130%AD(+40%AP) crit from behind every 3 seconds (reduced by CDR). if Infinity Edge crit changed to 180%AD(+40%AP)

Cons Lost 20% damage from Critical strikes Lost 20% damage from Two-Shiv Poison

Examples

Pre-Rework Auto Attack 126 + 25 = 151 Physical Damage

In a fight that lasts 10 seconds with Shaco attacking from behind, he will auto 10 times (damage increased by 20%) 126*10 (10 autos) + 20% (passive damage) = 1512, or 151 dps

Current Auto Attack 126 * 130% = 164 + 40(AP Ratio) = 204 Physical Damage

204 Physical Damage every 3 seconds (1.8 with full CDR).

In a fight that lasts 10 seconds with Shaco attacking from behind, he will auto 10 times, critting 3 times 164*3 = 492 (crit dmg) + 882 (7 auto attacks) + 120 (AP Ratio) = 1494, or 149 dps.

(With 1.8 CDR on Passive) 164*5 = 820 (crit dmg) + 630 (5 auto attacks) + 200 (AP Ratio) = 1650, or 165 dps.

After going through the examples, with no CDR, the change from 20% increased damage passive to the crit passive was a 2dps decrease. While, at full cdr, it was a 14dps increase.

tl;dr Nerf with 0% cdr Buff with 40% cdr PreRework 151dps Current -2dps with 0% CDR +14dps with 40% CDR

  • Deceive Pre Rework: Blink in target direction and stealth for up to 3.5 seconds. Next basic attack within 6 seconds critically strikes for 220% damage

Current: Blink in target direction and stealth for 4.5 seconds. After leaving stealth his next basic attack within 2.5 seconds will reduce Deceives cooldown by 2.5 seconds.

Pros/Cons

Deceive Pros Gained -2.5 Second cooldown reduction on auto Can now place boxes while Invis Duration changed from 3.5 to 4.5

Deceive Cons Lost 220% Crit Now Costs 60 mana at max rank rather than 50 Cooldown changed from 11 to 14

Examples

Pre Rework Deceive 50 mana cost, 220% damage, 11 second cooldown, 3.5 Stealth Duration 11 - 3.5 (Stealth Duration) = 7.5 seconds 220% * 126 = 277 + 20% = 332

In a 10 second fight, you will get 2 deceives off. 2772 = 554 (Dmg of Crits) = 55dps (without backstab) 3322 = 664 (Dmg of Crits) = 66 dps (with backstab)

Current Deceive 60 mana cost, 14 second cooldown, 4.5 Stealth Duration 14 - 4.5 (Stealth Duration) - 2.5 (Auto CD Reduction) = 7 second cooldown

After going through the examples, Shaco gains a 1 second stealth duration and lowers the cooldown by .5 seconds, but loses 66 dps and costs 10 more mana.

tl;dr Buff to Duration and CD Nerf to DPS and Mana Cost +1s stealth duration -0.5 cooldown -66dps +10 mana cost

  • Jack in the Box

Pre Rework:

A trap that lasts 60 seconds. Fears for 1.5 seconds. Attacks 10 times for 95 (+20% AP) Magic Damage. Prioritizes the closest champion in combat with Shaco. This being when Shaco damages a champion or when the champion damages Shaco. Can be Stacked. Pink Wards reveal the trap, but do not activate it.

Current:

A trap that lasts 60 (+5% AP) seconds. Fears for 1.0 seconds. Attacks 10 times doing 95 (+20% AP) Magic Damage. Prioritizes the closest champion that damages the box. Cannot be stacked. Gains hp per level. Becomes activated by Control wards, Oracle Alteration, Sweeping Lens, and Duskblade. Upon activation, boxes lose their fear and their duration is set to 5 seconds. They are revealed by Clairvoyance Plant and Oracles (through Kleptomancy). 50% damage done to turrets.

Pros/Cons

Jack in the Box Pros +5% AP increase to Duration Health scaling up to 550hp

Jack in the Box Cons Cannot be stacked Is activated by Control Wards, Oracle Alteration, Sweeping Lens, Duskblade Revealed by Clairvoyance plant and Oracles Elixir. Worse Prioritization -0.5 second Fear length 50% damage to turrets

  • Two-Shiv Poison

Pre Rework:

Two-Shiv Poison maxed out at 210(+100% AP)(+100% bonus AD) Magic Damage. Two-Shiv Poison received an additional 20% damage from Backstab. 30% Attack Speed Reduction to minions and monsters. 30% slow on hit or on activation.

Current:

Two-Shiv Poison maxed out at 155(+120% bonus AD)(+75% AP) Physical Damage. Two-Shiv Poison damage increased by 0% - 50% based on target's missing health.

Pros/Cons

Two-Shiv Poison Pros +0% - 50% increased damage based on missing health +20% bonus AD ratio

Neutral Changed from Magic Damage to Physical Damage

Two-Shiv Poison Cons -97 base damage (-55 base, -42 Passive Nerf) -35% AP ratio (15% base nerf, 20% Passive nerf) -30% attack speed reduction

Examples

Pre Rework 210 base, 100% ap ratio, 20% bonus dmg passive, 70 Mana, 8 sec cd. 210(base) + 100 AP (AP Ratio) = 310 Magic Damage (No Backstab) 310 Magic Damage + 62 (20% passive) = 372 Magic Damage (BackStab)

In a 10 second fight you throw Two-Shiv Poison three times. 3103 = 930 Magic Damage = 93 dps (without backstab) 3723 = 1116 Magic Damage = 112 dps (with Backstab)

Current 155 base, 75% ap ratio, 0-50% bonus dmg dependent on target's missing hp, 70 Mana, 8 sec cd. 155(base) + 75 AP (AP Ratio) = 230 Physical Damage + 0% (0-50% based on hp) = 230 Physical Damage 155(base) + 75 AP (AP Ratio) = 230 Physical Damage + 25% (0-50% based on hp) = 288 Physical Damage 155(base) + 75 AP (AP Ratio) = 230 Physical Damage + 35% (0-50% based on hp) = 311 Physical Damage 155(base) + 75 AP (AP Ratio) = 230 Physical Damage + 50% (0-50% based on hp) = 345 Physical Damage

In a 10 second fight you throw Two-Shiv Poison three times. 1000 hp 1000 - 230(0%) = 770 - 256(230 + 770/1000 50%) = 514 = 25.7%(514/1000 50%) = 289 230 + 256 + 289 = 775 Physical Damage = 78 dps

A champion has to be at 30% hp for current shiv to deal the same damage as old shiv without backstab. The current shiv will never do as much damage as old shiv with backstab.

  • Hallucinate

Pre Rework:

Shaco Vanishes for 0.5 seconds, creating a clone. On death or expiration explodes, dealing 600(100% AP) Magic damage. Clone deals 75% damage and takes 50% increased damage.

Current:

Shaco vanishes for 0.5 seconds, creating a clone. On death or expiration explodes dealing 400(100% AP) Magic damage and spawning mini-boxes in a triangle. Mini boxes fear for 0.75 seconds, dealing 75(+15% AP). Clone deals 75% damage and takes 50% increased damage.

Pros/Cons

Hallucinate Pros Mini boxes

Hallucinate Cons -200 damage

I find Hallucinate is a negligible ability on AP Shaco. There isn't as much damage value in the ability as there is in tricking your opponent into thinking it's you. I find it's unreliable damage and scenarios when it's useful for damage are rare. It can help to add a few autos in a round of burst, but unless you have many hours on Shaco, using the clone effectively is one of the things that gives the playstyle its high skill ceiling. A new player will not be able to control the clone correctly to effectively use the explosion or mini-boxes correctly. Even I rarely use them correctly after the thousands of hours I have on the champion.

  • Summary

Pros vs Cons

Pros

Backstab Guaranteed 130%AD(+40%AP) crit from behind every 3 seconds (reduced with CDR).

Deceive Gained -2.5 Second cooldown reduction on auto Can now place boxes while Invs Duration changed from 3.5 to 4.5

Jack in the Box +5% AP increase to Duration Health scaling up to 550hp

Two-Shiv Poison +0% - 50% increased damage based on missing health +20% bonus AD ratio

Hallucinate Mini boxes

Cons

Backstab Lost 20% damage from Critical strikes Lost 20% damage from Two-Shiv Poison

Jack in the Box Cannot be stacked Is activated by Control Wards, Oracle Alteration, Sweeping Lens, Duskblade Revealed by Clairvoyance plant and Oracles Elixir. Worse Prioritization

Two-Shiv Poison -97 base damage (-55 base, -42 Passive Nerf) -35% AP ratio (15% base nerf, 20% Passive nerf) -30% attack speed reduction -0.5 second Fear length 50% damage to turrets

Hallucinate -200 damage

Examples

All Examples are Shaco at level 18 with Base 125.5(126) AD, 100 AP, 40% cdr. 1.00 Attack Speed, Everything Rounded. 10 second fight, abilities weaved between autos.

Pre Rework Full Example Backstab - 126*10 (10 autos) + 20% (passive damage) = 1512, or 151 dps

Decieve - 2772 = 554 (Dmg of Crits) = 55dps (without backstab) 3322 = 664 (Dmg of Crits) = 66 dps (with Backstab)

Jack in the Box - (Same damage between, Cancels each other out in end dps) 10*95+20(20% AP) = 1150

Two-Shiv Poison- 3103 = 930 Magic Damage = 93 dps (without backstab) 3723 = 1116 Magic Damage = 112 dps (with Backstab)

Hallucinate - (Same damage between, Cancels each other out in end dps)

Math: Without Backstab = 1268 + 554 + 930 = 2492 Backstab = 1268 + 20% = 1008 + 664 (Deceive Crits) = 1672 + 1116 = 2788

DPS - 249 dps (without Backstab) 279 dps (with Backstab)

Current Full Example Backstab - 164*3 = 492 (crit dmg) + 882 (7 auto attacks) + 120 (AP Ratio) = 1494, or 149 dps.

(With 1.8 CDR on Passive) 164*5 = 820 (crit dmg) + 630 (5 auto attacks) + 200 (AP Ratio) = 1650, or 165 dps.

Deceive - (Deceive no longer has damage on it)

Jack in the Box - (Same damage between, Cancels each other out in end dps) 1095+2010(20% AP) = 1150

Two-Shiv Poison- 1000 hp 1000 - 230(0%) = 770 - 256(230 + 770/1000 50%) = 514 = 25.7%(514/1000 50%) = 289 230 + 256 + 289 = 775 Physical Damage = 78 dps

Hallucinate - (Same damage between the two, Cancels each other out in the end)

Math: 1650 + 775 = 2425 (40% cdr for 1.8sec passive)

DPS - Pre Rework 249 dps (without Backstab) (93 dps as Magic Damage, 156 dps as Physical Damage) 279 dps (with Backstab) (116 dps as Magic damage, 163 dps as Physical Damage) Current 243dps Physical Damage

Conclusion

There are a few effective paths that can be taken to help Shaco. One of the least drastic changes would be to revert some abilities back to their previous states. Something along the lines of his Passive and Deceive being reverted might give him the strength to be the one shot assassin AD Shaco players enjoy while also giving him the poke potential AP Shaco prefers. This would allow for Shaco to gain some strength back without fully reverting.

Alternatively, testing something new on Shaco might be the key to fixing his problems. About a month ago, I made a post about adaptive abilities and why Shaco should be the first. I go into detail about why adaptive abilities might be something to start thinking about. Shaco's a strong contender for being one of the first to be tested with adaptive abilities. His Two-Shiv is heavily relied on as a damage ability for AP Shaco. Giving Shaco the ability to make his Two-Shiv, and even his passive, do Magic damage or Physical damage based on what he builds, might help to bring him back into viability.

A final, more drastic, change would be to go all in on one playstyle. Stop dancing around the champion's abilities, gimping both playstyles, and just make him fully AP or AD. My playstyle for years has been fully AP, but personally I hate seeing the majority of Shaco players, being AD, suffer because of Riot trying to balance around both playstyles.

Thank you for reading through this. I hope that my thoughts about Shaco may help provide some guidance toward improving his balance and enjoyability.

tl;dr Between the Pre-Rework AP Shaco and Current AP Shaco, there has been a decrease in AP Shaco's dps. Along with this, boxes have become less reliable because many items cancel them out, their new, wonky prioritization and the majority, if not all, of AP Shaco's damage becoming physical damage. Unless you play perfectly, AP Shaco is much less viable than AD Shaco currently.

113 Comments

RayFrost12/27/2017, 8:30:27 PM61 votes

A clearly formatted, well-written post opening the discussion regarding Shaco and his place in the game.[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Eedat12/27/2017, 8:34:12 PM23 votes

Oh, it's actually pink ward. Was expecting it to be some level 7 OCE clone (heh) account.

Anywho, what do you propose should be done about the change of his Q from stealth to invisibility? Honestly I think that's a lot of the problem with Shaco feeling unfair to play against currently. In the past you could drop a pink to counteract it. Now he just presses Q and he's gone. Invisibility is much more potent than stealth was and that really isn't going to be reflected in a number

Sawyerr12/27/2017, 10:21:22 PM19 votes

When you really think about it AP shaco fits more of the trickster style riot was going for rather than an AD one-shot character. This was a great well-written post and hopefully, a riot employee will put these changes into consideration with the balance team.

ΑNNΑ12/27/2017, 8:30:36 PM18 votes

This is a good suggestion. Riot fix AP Shaco [vlad-salute]

Final Spark Lux12/27/2017, 8:31:43 PM16 votes

Wow that's a lot of math. Bring back box stacking!

I always had this thought in the back of my mind; if they changed box HP to be something like wards / teemo shrooms / zyra plants, I think they'd be way more consistent. Even with the scaling to box HP, I find my boxes getting one shot by ADC's if they're smart enough to click. It makes ranking boxes feel really bad imo, since I can't even get it to arm before it's dead.

I miss the old days :I

Psychaleppo12/27/2017, 8:28:53 PM11 votes

Agreed 10/10 would read again.

Šimonko12/27/2017, 8:30:06 PM10 votes

True af, good time spent on stream

Int Like Rickon12/27/2017, 10:06:08 PM9 votes

I agree that AP Shaco feels bad since the rework. At least with the new runes, it feels like he does damage again as an assassin. I love making his abilities, or at least his E adaptive based on what you are building. Since they already have adaptive runes it would make sense.

Canonic12/27/2017, 9:13:32 PM8 votes

Hey Pink Ward! Upvote for Shaco mains and post visibility.

woobee12/28/2017, 11:12:54 AM7 votes

Recrown the Clown

Gelmous12/28/2017, 3:20:01 AM5 votes

wow dude that's a really in-depth Review, you seem like a dedicated shaco player, try posting this in reddit since your post is well established and worded it could reach front page and be looked into, the boards aren't the most ideal place to post about balance since 90% of the posters here have no idea what they're talking about, best of luck.

it's not a common sight to see logic on the boards, thanks a lot.

Berry Dragon12/27/2017, 11:15:44 PM5 votes

For real, revert Shaco, the AP state he is in is shameful. They don't understand that even though he was strong in solo-q, doesn't mean he needed to be nerfed beyond being playable. Shaco had always been strong, but not OP enough to be completely changed. How could they just change how a champ plays after 6 seasons? Poor InvertedComposer was a Yorick main since the beginning, he loved that champ, then they changed everything about him. After all of his hard time and effort to be put into that champion, he has nothing to show for it anymore. It is not just/only how strong or weak the champ is, it's about how they play, having FUN as the champion, League has changed too much, it isn't the game that we all had originally signed up for. Shaco nerfing doesn't help. summoner 3

I am Razgriz12/28/2017, 3:23:07 AM4 votes

Gonna talk about Shaco from the perspective of playing against him since that is also important. At no point do I think AP or AD Shaco are OP or UP, but I may refer to abilities as strong or weak, but particularly - frustrating.

I like Shaco's niche but I don't like the idea of just adding more damage to Shaco. The idea that he can play all these mind games and make you play the game to his tune but also straight up duel you is extremely unsettling. His Q is the strongest thing about him and it's frustrating to deal with. Shaco in general can not be engaged on at any time. It is neither safe or wise to do so. He'll make you dance to his tune. And not just because of his Q, but his entire kit.

I think adding adaptive abilities is cute but even harder to balance since this means he's viable with any item. If anything for hybrid champs like this I'd like to see AP used to increase utility and AD used to increase damage. Since it means different playstyles. Playstyles you can work around once you see what they're building. If anything though, I see adaptive abilities as being much harder to balance than just going all-in on one damage type.

If you want to buff his damage then he needs to be easier to be engaged upon. Sorry, but that's the truth of it.

Lazloo12/29/2017, 4:01:48 AM4 votes

Shaco will never be the same again, i missed not having to max q for stealth duration v.v

Pierce The Veal12/28/2017, 1:31:04 AM4 votes

Considering this post is:

  1. made by pink ward
  2. well mathed
  3. well worded
  4. explained logically
  5. made by fucking pink fucking ward I think this is a great post on AP Shaco and his current state. Would be much appreciated if Riot gave us a reply but odds are they might just ignore this.
Dactylogram12/28/2017, 2:51:14 AM4 votes

I'm going to be honest I didn't read all of this post because I don't know enough about AP shaco. But I have seen your stream and I know you're probably really qualified to give some insight on champion balance regarding shaco. I really hope that this thread gets some visibility and Meddler and other people involved in balance will go through your post.

kargish12/27/2017, 10:14:11 PM4 votes

Shaco just in general has been thrown into the meat grinder. AP Shaco was hurt the most, but even AD Shaco is struggling because of all the changes they made. If you want damage as Shaco now, you're forced to max your E, but by doing so you'll stay at 1.5 seconds stealth with an extreme cooldown. Removing the Q damage was a mistake, and changing the E from magical to physical damage seems like a meh way to make lethality Shaco viable.

In his current state you gotta be a otp Shaco player to make him work.

Xandypantz12/28/2017, 12:34:58 AM3 votes

As someone who has wanted to pick up ap shaco as a melee option in the top lane [dare I say support] (where I really only feel comfortable playing mages like swain/heimer/zyra). I felt his current kit is too punishable without a high level of play. I understand practice makes perfect, but it legitimately feels impossible to learn him in the state he is in. I am aware of my affinity for zoning champs based on my preferred champs, but I was hoping to be able to branch out more this season (although I did pick up protobelt on zyra). I love the outplay potential that comes with shaco as well as the game knowledge. It would be great to see some changes to ap shaco for those of us who prefer poke or zone focused champs. -personal opinion of course.

HN Akyuu12/27/2017, 10:33:51 PM3 votes

I've been maining shaco too for the last few seasons and i mostly agree. (tho i keep switching between AP and AD all the time) His boxes being destroyed by a free red trinket is still kinda stupid. The E dmg nerf also just feel really bad, + The stealth time at lvl 1-2 hurts his early ganks a lot. (yes i know he still has a free flash, but that's all it is. A flash, without any dmg or other buffs besides the extremely short stealth at lvl 1/2) He used to be this early ganking machine. Punishing players for overstepping at lvl 2-4, which may still be possible, but way less consistent I'm really happy with his ult (not as if much has changed about it over the years) Having the boxes is nice i guess (but not really needed tbh) and it's nice that the clone can attack wards now. I'd love to see: Some kind of E buff Something along the lines of semi- reverting his Q : back to where it was when the rework hit, with both an AP and an AD ration. (Q doesn't feel as good as it should. Of course you couldn't take the rework ratios. I'd be more then fine with nerfed ones) And his passive going back to the old pre-Rework form with the +20% on all dmg dealt by shaco. Last thing that REALLY bothers me is his passive I mostly play AD assassin jungle shaco at the moment. The passiv crit% is super awkward to use even with IE. Let's say you have Static shiv and IE in late game. Now normally you won't be able to one-shot a squishy (unlike every other assassin ever) unless you've been stacking your Dark Harvest all game. The passive gives you a guaranteed 180% on your next attack, but then the opponent (probably the adc, cause let's be honest that's my job) has time to react easily, use one escape and kite you because you just used your only gap closer to engage. Most of the time It's "better" to ignore your passive completely and attack them from the front and pray to got that your 50% crit chance doesn't rek you. Which is sad, i shouldn't want to NOT proc my own passive just to maximize my dmg outputShaco

Hasten12/27/2017, 10:41:06 PM3 votes

ap shaco was the only reason i ever touched shaco to begin with.AP shaco was not the guy who uses Q and one shots someone but u could outsmart and bait and make the playstyle more fun.As shaco is currently i just completely stopped playing shaco unless sometimes when i get to play a normal game just for the good times but still i do no build ap because it does not work well.All in all bringing his Q back doing some extra magic dmg on hit? heck yea that would be much better but still so many people who get outsmarted by good plays gonna blame the champ being too op without requiring any skill. (some still do now)

General Esdeath 12/29/2017, 11:23:49 PM2 votes

I remember the fun old days of full AP Shaco in ARAM and putting boxes on the healing shrines

Ekrei12/27/2017, 10:33:10 PM2 votes

Hey PinkWard. I, like you, am a AP Shaco player as well. Although I have no-where near as much time played on him as you, I have played him every-game I can for 2 season's (mostly ap toplane) should speak. I have been playing this game sense either late s1 or early s2. Was AP toplane shaco player last season, my build was quite different than yours, however, I feel that the day AP shaco became bad was the day they changed Shiv from AP to Physical damage. Being that my build revolved heavily around Pen the shiv would deal nearly true damage to squishies and still very good damage to Tanks. I think that reverting shiv back to magic damage would solve, well at least, my issues. It was a huge source of damage for me and my damage charts endgame have dropped drastically ever sense that change. My 2 cents.

Giggling Granny12/27/2017, 11:04:12 PM2 votes

The only shaco that was fun for me was the before even season 1 shaco

The glorious

item 3068 6 of them and with your clone 12 of them :D

Man now that was good stuff after riot removed that i stopped playing shaco...

Gildarzt12/27/2017, 11:06:37 PM2 votes

Pretty accurate as always pink ward. Good to read you again.

TheJoker8812/27/2017, 11:09:08 PM2 votes

If we look at shaco more closely, "he jests until someone dies, and then he laughs" , "Shaco is a terrifying, elusive figure most often seen where madness can openly reign" this is how shaco playstyle should be and as a player that why i love playing AP shaco ,because i love the lore , i love the madness and i enjoy playing AP shaco it fit so well with his lore. i hope Riot will make a decizion on witch side will set shaco, im tired to play shaco with Ardent Censer.

Sun4K12/27/2017, 11:23:02 PM2 votes

Well written and very good suggestions. Unfortunately i really feel like Riot doesn't really care about Shaco. First time i heard about his rework, i was expecting something totally new and refreshing. Urgot is a great exemple of something different, but in the end they just tweaked some numbers. I don't understand why our clown is not getting more attention. Awesome champion, great voice acting and unique gameplay.

He's the Joker of League of Legends, and everyone loves Batman right ?

Jasiwel12/28/2017, 12:10:29 AM2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pink Ward,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YI24bqy2,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-12-27T20:24:50.823+0000)

Alternatively, testing something new on Shaco might be the key to fixing his problems. About a month ago, I made a post about adaptive abilities and why Shaco should be the first. I go into detail about why adaptive abilities might be something to start thinking about. Shaco's a strong contender for being one of the first to be tested with adaptive abilities. His Two-Shiv is heavily relied on as a damage ability for AP Shaco. Giving Shaco the ability to make his Two-Shiv, and even his passive, do Magic damage or Physical damage based on what he builds, might help to bring him back into viability.

I think this route is definitely one of the more solid ways to approach him. There is a lot of potential with the Adaptive system, and champions like Shaco could make exceptional use of it. I don't think turning Shaco into a "one-way or bust" or "one-shot or bust" champion is going to improve his game health even if it improves his viability. Shaco is a cool champion (in terms of design) because he has a lot of options in a fight to royally screw with his target; I think giving him even more options via Adaptive itemization would be much better than making him an AP Rengar.

CodaO12/28/2017, 1:49:05 AM2 votes

I actually spend a lot time thinking and reading about this. And I agree with Shiv change + backstab change ..i enjoy playing ap shaco but I know im not only one who is scared of change(AD Shaco) and losing everything that shaco has. I think Riot see Shaco only as Ad assasin and i hope that will change too... 😘*[slayer-pantheon-rainbows]*

Anomalies12/28/2017, 2:42:48 AM2 votes

You're missing a few points on the improvements that the mini-rework made to these abilities in their readability and improved gameplay, and I think losing these to revert the abilities is not a good tradeoff.

The old passive was unclear, giving no real feedback on when it has triggered. Losing the bonus on two shiv against an orb walking ADC because of the missile travel time was stupid. I do think you're over stating the reliability of the old passive in your math.

Deceive lost the timed leash/punishment for using the ability on the approach to ganks/fights to gain early positioning, in that you can use it early without losing damage.

Your points about the box mechanics, and exploring adaptive abilities are fair and I'd be interested in those changes for sure.

Kaìju12/28/2017, 4:51:36 AM2 votes

While I get what you're saying, my understanding is that Riot is trying to remove hybrid builds and or play styles from the game, since they make it really hard to itemize against. If that's how they're planning to move forward, what should happen to Shaco? I'm just wondering since I don't play him, but my understanding is that at some point he's gonna lose one side of his play style.

Altonius Amakiir12/28/2017, 9:07:02 AM2 votes

The change to physical damage isn't neutral, since we are talking about AP shaco, it affects the penetration values. Makes Void Staff less impactful.

DNFVixen12/28/2017, 3:57:33 PM2 votes

shaco has a 53% winrate right now so shush.

The Yetii Rider12/28/2017, 7:07:15 PM2 votes

Thing is, you are basing this discussion on the premise that the rework should have been a neutral change. It can end as a net nerf and still be a good rework.

Also I heavily disagree with your assessment of magic to physical as a "neutral" change. That was a buff, straight up. AD Shaco builds lethality, AP Shaco doesn't build magic pen.

r82k12/28/2017, 7:23:27 PM2 votes

i just started picking up AP Shaco and play him as a support role (where i feel like i can make an impact, with the "Active Cooldown build"), i feel like the thing that makes AP Shaco less viable as a toplane champion is the shear lack of waveclear and mana issues that often leads to you being behind in cs, this also makes him less viable as an AP jungler cause you really need that tiamat to get your clearspeed going where AP Shaco will fall alot behind not really haveing the same choices in that persective... (tiamat even got a small buff so hurrah for AD Shaco)

i also feel like his ultimate is ineffective in alot of ways... and rarely i lvl it beyond 1 point for the ability to dodge other champions abilities.

also his boxes will not dmg stuff like zyras plants but it works the other way around...

to summaries there are simply small things i feel like could be done to make AP shaco get a comeback, his boxes being disabled by Oracles Alteration is basicly disableing all your playmakeing abilty stuff like that just cancels out anything you try to do as a "trickster".

Im not to sure adaptive dmg would solve anything, doing mixed dmg will make it harder for your opponent to itemize against you, getting an advantage through that might be whats still keeping him somewhat able to manage.

Take this from a "new" shaco player and the perspective from this side of the fence ;)

Good post

We Need A Tank12/28/2017, 7:52:29 PM2 votes

I am shaco main too from Italy, EUW. I feel free to play ad shaco in every scenario even when the team is full ad but the playstyle of ap shaco has died for me in almost all the lanes. only support fits the case with the W max until the enemy supp gets the red trinket. What makes this champ fun is not only his Q and W but the old ap scaling on E that allowed the old shaco to build hybryd dmg and still be a threat. ~~The idea of adaptive dmg on E and R fits perfectly the playstyle and should not be underestimated by Riot ~~since they now have some practice with adaptive damage with all the new runes and stuff... Shaco now needs a rework or he will become like the old galio or warwick, champs that have become unpopular in the long run just because of clunky mechanics or unreliability. <3 u pink ward. I respect you even more by reading this. I hope that Riot will manage to get a balanced solution to make the ult finally deal some decent amount of damage, or maybe decide that the mini box esploding out the clone do not expire if only one gets destroyed/let the mini boxes live for at least 15-20 seconds to make the ult effective in teamfights. btw just in case a rioter would be reading this...

** PLS NERF XIN ZHAO'S ULTIMATE IT IS WRONG AND DUMB THAT IMMUNITY OUT OF THE CIRCLE IS EMBARASSING JUST MAKE HIM HAVE REDUCED DMG BUT STOP GIVING OP CHAMPS RANDOM IMMUNITIES IT SUCKS. **

love the shaco community! c ya!{{summoner:-1}}

The JigSAW12/28/2017, 2:37:51 PM1 votes

I'll be honest, for some reason I do way better with AP Shaco than AD. When they changed his E and passive, I was far less enthusiastic but it still works to some extent. I can't tell you how many times my poor clone got ulted instead of me, or ignited, etc.. it was hilarious.

I don't know what build and runes you use but I stick with Lich Bane to add a punch after Q. Since his W and R do magic damage, he heals significantly from them (especially on clone explosion/triple box drop) and it is always fun to have high cooldowns from item 3165 item 3100 so I can use my R a lot more often (especially in a team fight when I sneak in with Q and they have no idea I'm even there) and get a good amount of damage/heal on item 3146 with Ravenous Hunter rune. I should probably learn AD Shaco at some point, but so far it seems like AP is still the most fun and for me reliable way to win.