Can we have a defensive mastery tree?

Carnarius·Aug 4, 2016·114 votes·5,931 views

if we look at the past, we had 3 perfectly balanced trees for 5 seasons, one with damage amplification (damage dealers), one utility oriented (supports/mages) and one with survivability stats (tanks). let's see what we have now:

ferocity tree - pure damage tree with a lot of % scalings, some life steal
cunning tree - once again a lot of additional damage (flat and %) with some utility aspects in it
resolve tree - some really weak, barely noticeable tank stats, utility (???), the best mastery in this tree is a damage mastery

as we can see, something which was balanced before now heavily favours damage, the difference is out of this world. you used to get similar amount of damage/tankiness whenever tree you decided to use, but now you get nearly more than 20% more damage (not counting keystone), while someone who wants to go tank get 2-3% more survivability?

so my question is, can we have a resolve tree that actually give tank stats, while transfering its utility masteries into cunning tree?

146 Comments

OleandervineAug 4, 201618 votes

The problem with a pure defense mastery tree that has substantial defensive stats is that it feeds the playstyle of damage dealers running tank builds. If anything, the Ferocity and Cunning trees need to have their wings clipped and brought down to Resolve's level. Especially Cunning. When Thunderlord's is being taken over every other keystone on damage dealers, that means it's unhealthy for the game.

Critmaster GarenAug 4, 201654 votes

{quoted}

The problem with a pure defense mastery tree that has substantial defensive stats is that it feeds the playstyle of damage dealers running tank builds.

its actually quite the opposite. fervor of battle is probably the worst offender when it comes to melee adc or assassins running bruiser builds.

item independent damage is what favours these builds, and fervor has repeatedly come into discussion when it came to bruiser yi, bruiser fiora, and now bruiser yasuo. it allows them to just keep stacking defense and still deal reliable damage.

bruiser ekko and bruiser fizz also made use of grasp of the undying to deal some extra damage.

op is quite correct. the resolve three is honestly pathetic for the most part. people only go into it for the keystones. the defensive stats you can pick up on the way dont scale at all, and are not noticable past lvl 3.

i wish wed at least get veteran scars back.

for some reason its also the only tree that didnt get masteries added, even though it needs it the most.

RalanrAug 4, 20162 votes

I've actually been wondering why no new masteries have been added to it. Though with assassins being updated next I can't see any additional resolve masteries until the season 7 midseason.

And even then it isn't assured it'll be vanguard tanks for a roster update. It could be divers.

DengedenAug 4, 20165 votes

It has been proven that the old Vet's Scars sucked, don't try to bring it back up.

The resolve tree gives summoner spell CDR and tenacity. Granted, neither of those make Garen any less of a cannon minion but they're invaluable stats on actual champions.

Critmaster GarenAug 4, 201613 votes

{quoted}

It has been proven that the old Vet's Scars sucked, don't try to bring it back up.

The resolve tree gives summoner spell CDR and tenacity. Granted, neither of those make Garen any less of a cannon minion but they're invaluable stats on actual champions.

it gives slow resistance, not actual tenacity. and while both masteries are good, theyre still utility masteries. there are still no actual defensive masteries that are worth something.

the old veteran scas scaled better into lategame. you got more than double the current health out of it.

The Blue RajahAug 4, 201614 votes

It actually gives both. Slow resistance and tenacity. Which makes it twice as effective against slows in fact.

Malicious MetalAug 4, 20164 votes

That's why I run 12/0/18 on Morde

DengedenAug 4, 20162 votes

It was what then? A 100-200 extra health with 5 items? That's worthless late game, considering we're talking tanks here.

Yes, there are no defensive masteries that let you inactively stand there or walk forward while taking no damage. I wonder why.

UF DanAug 4, 201611 votes

Are you retarded? 100-200 health is invaluable when its just a few points in masteries. I can't even respond to the second part of your comment bc it makes no sense that you'd think 100-200 health in masteries is worthless, yet think defense masteries shouldn't be that powerful. IQ = -4

DengedenAug 4, 20161 votes

You think that late game, when ADCs crit with every AA and mid laners have Void and Deathcap, 100 health will do anything............

Yes, I think that little health won't do anything late game. I also think tanks should be mindful of their positioning at any point of the game instead of taking no damage. I know, very contradictory.

UF DanAug 5, 20165 votes

You act like late game tanks are sitting there with 0 mr/armor. 100-200 health means some but not too much. But the keyword here is, is that it comes from masteries. Where you would put 5 points out of the 30 you have into small increments of stats. Add masteries into the mix, and yeah that percent health really starts looking good.

"that let you inactively stand there or walk forward while taking no damage"

But the thing is, Tanks should be walking forward and taking minimal damage. I mean that's what the role is correct? Of course masteries aren't going to give some 20% health bonus to make sure tanks are unkillable, but that's never been a problem. Still contradictory though.

If anything the problem right now with tanks is Sunfire/Deadmans/Guantlet. Giving damage to the ones that aren't supposed to deal it. Plus even adding slows and ms to these stat sticks. That's why Maw/Abyssal has been comimg into question multiple times. Giving survivability at no expense of damage.

DengedenAug 5, 20162 votes

Masteries are for powerspikes during specific situations. A mastery that is only barely relevant late game is worthless.

But the thing is, Tanks should be walking forward and taking minimal damage.

Nope. Because if they could, practiced teams and players would build them offtank, go in when there's an opening and decimate the enemy team with AoE. _That's _what tanks should do, only with less AoE damage. When they can't go in, they use their tenacity and CC to disengage.

I dislike Sunfire and Gauntlet as much as the next guy but some tanks need them for waveclear, so they won't spend all lane under tower. There's 0 reason to dislike Deadman's, if you dislike that, you might as well dislike that tanks have base damage on their abilities.

Maw is ok because it forces you to do damage in order to take more damage, as is the case with most AD threats. Abyssal isn't because it lets you weather poke and waveclear.

UF DanAug 5, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Masteries are for powerspikes during specific situations.

Point me to the League Constitution in which this law is written in.

{quoted}

Masteries are for powerspikes during specific situations. A mastery that is only barely relevant late game is worthless.

Here you go contradicting yourself again. Isn't late game a "specific situation"? ???????? Whattt. What about the masteries now? Savagery is 5 dmg on mimnons/monsters isn't that worthless since it's earlygame? What about the scaling Hybrid Pen, That's too late game too right?

{quoted}

Nope. Because if they could, practiced teams and players would build them offtank, go in when there's an opening and decimate the enemy team with AoE. That's what tanks should do, only with less AoE damage. When they can't go in, they use their tenacity and CC to disengage.

This is literally what I talked about in my last comment. Tanks should be tankier but deal wayyyyyy less damage. The second half of this paragraph is like copy pasted from my last comment.

{quoted}

I dislike Sunfire and Gauntlet as much as the next guy but some tanks need them for waveclear, so they won't spend all lane under tower.

Sunfire is in a pretty good spot rn actually. Tanks do need the waveclear. But you see when the Holy Tank Trinity comes in (Deadmans, Guantlet, Sunfire), All that Base Damage and 2 CC items stacked on top of eachother is ridiculous. Sunfire gives a lil less armor for the useful passive it gives, and I got no problems with it by itself. Which is why i hate Guantlet/Deadmans. Items that make me bring well designed items like Sunfire into Question. Also Guantlet isn't suppose to be a Waveclear item. But I guess you can add that one to the extensive list of Benefits Tank items give.

{quoted}

There's 0 reason to dislike Deadman's, if you dislike that, you might as well dislike that tanks have base damage on their abilities.

I honestly had to reread this part a couple times. You say sunfire/guantlet is annoying but then tell me there's nothing wrong with Deadman's? Deadman's is Stat-Sticking 101, Let me break it down for ya.

500 Health (Higher than most tank items)
50 Armor (Normal Armor for a tank item)
60 MS~Out Of Combat (Massive boost in Ms, gives more than swifties and morr than half than what mobis gives.)
100 Damage~When Full Momemtum (Just out of no where this tank item decides to give free dmg along with the ms steroid. Literally the reason a semi-meta champ like Hecarim became a pick of ban soloq carry god)
50% 1 Sec Slow (Yeah let's just add some cc to overflow this Stat Stick)

Good tank stats along with a free mobi boots + Extra Damage is just disgusting. I honestly feel like Riot just laid down a Buffet of Stats and someone on the Balance Team decided to pick one of everything to make this Dead Broken ass item. (Get it?). Jokes aside the fact that this item hasn't been deleted yet is beyond me. And no, when tank items like guantlet sunfire, and Deadmans all stacked together are dealing 400 damage to you, AND slowing you, without even using abilities is NOT ok. You pair all this bullshit up with some mobile carry with high base damage, and yeah you start seeing tank akali ekko in lcs.

{quoted}

Maw is ok because it forces you to do damage in order to take more damage, as is the case with most AD threats. Abyssal isn't because it lets you weather poke and waveclear.

Most of this made no sense to me, but i'll give you my two cents on Maw and Abyssal. Just like with the Holy Trinity of Tank Items, You can't mix damage and survivability into one item without significantly reducing one or both of the stats. Maw of Malmortius is the ap carry counter. That 500 magic shield is just retarded along with yet another buffet of stats with the Lifeline passive. Ap Assasins don't exist with this item. And the extra mr is honestly just a bonus with how broken the shield is. It's build path? Literally a dream. Doing bad in lane? 1.35k gold hexdrinker. Mini Maw that makes sure your mistakes don't matter. Doing well in lane but still want to counter every ap champ in the game? Grab the Serrated Dirk and buy Faceroll Maw later. Hex is so gold efficient the item doesn't even need to be completed and it will still shutdown every ap assasin. And I love how armor pen is included in all of this bc Riot just loves overloading items. Abyssal was and still is such a buy and win lane item it had to get nerfed bc of its stupidity. You can literally never go wrong with this item. Gives way too much pen and ap for the Mr it gives. This item literally encourages for you to make mistakes so you can lose lane and buy it. It's stupid that you're forced to buy it rven if you win lane bc if the enemy laner buys one so do you. Cause you can't build a normal ap build against this item and expect to win ever. Both Maw and Abyssal are just lane winners. Fixing mistakes after mistakes. Both had to be nerfed but are still stupid af. I hate going ap vs ap bc im corced to go abyssal everytime. And also magic pen from abyssal doesn't affect minions so it gives no waveclear.

DengedenAug 6, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dan DrakeSword,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YEboisrQ,comment-id=0001000000010000000100000000000000000001,timestamp=2016-08-05T23:26:51.943+0000)

Point me to the League Constitution in which this law is written in.

The one where every other mastery works like that.

Here you go contradicting yourself again. Isn't late game a "specific situation"?

I said it was barely relevant late game, so no.

???????? Whattt. What about the masteries now? Savagery is 5 dmg on mimnons/monsters isn't that worthless since it's earlygame?

It's actually useful then, so no.

What about the scaling Hybrid Pen, That's too late game too right?

It's actually useful then, so no.

This is literally what I talked about in my last comment. Tanks should be tankier but deal wayyyyyy less damage. The second half of this paragraph is like copy pasted from my last comment.

That's never going to happen because of what I said. If they had the ability to be tankier, they'd build damage items because more tankiness would be obsolete for people who play this game at a high level.

I honestly had to reread this part a couple times. You say sunfire/guantlet is annoying but then tell me there's nothing wrong with Deadman's? Deadman's is Stat-Sticking 101, Let me break it down for ya.

I dislike Sunfire and IBG for the free waveclear. Just because it's necessary doesn't make it any less cheap.

500 Health (Higher than most tank items)

50 Armor (Normal Armor for a tank item)

Tanks get outscaled anyway and it has no AoE as the other major armor items do.

60 MS~Out Of Combat (Massive boost in Ms, gives more than swifties and morr than half than what mobis gives.)

Wow. MS, that's just unheard of.

100 Damage~When Full Momemtum (Just out of no where this tank item decides to give free dmg along with the ms steroid. Literally the reason a semi-meta champ like Hecarim became a pick of ban soloq carry god)

Wow. Base damage, that's just unheard of.

50% 1 Sec Slow (Yeah let's just add some cc to overflow this Stat Stick)

Wow. A slow, that's just unheard of.

Good tank stats along with a free mobi boots + Extra Damage is just disgusting. I honestly feel like Riot just laid down a Buffet of Stats and someone on the Balance Team decided to pick one of everything to make this Dead Broken ass item. (Get it?). Jokes aside the fact that this item hasn't been deleted yet is beyond me.

Probably because Randuin's is better in the competitive scene. You've probably stopped reading at this point but the reason why Deadman's can exist with all the stats it gives is simple: There are other sources where you could get those stats, should you choose to want them. Sticking them all on one item makes the game less of a farmfest.

And no, when tank items like guantlet sunfire, and Deadmans all stacked together are dealing 400 damage to you, AND slowing you, without even using abilities is NOT ok.

Yeah that only happens to ADCs and they die to a breeze anyway. With a few resistances, that 400 turns into 100.

You pair all this bullshit up with some mobile carry with high base damage, and yeah you start seeing tank akali ekko in lcs.

The only reason tankali exists is because her assassin playstyle got gutted. "Seeing her in LCS" is a nice way of saying "she got picked there once". Tanko never bought deadman's by virtue of it sucking and he was picked for the free waveclear on his Q.

Most of this made no sense to me, but i'll give you my two cents on Maw and Abyssal. You can't mix damage and survivability into one item without significantly reducing one or both of the stats.

You must have a real problem with lifesteal then. And must've been very glad when spell vamp got removed.

Maw of Malmortius is the ap carry counter.

Correct, that'll show them for having free waveclear and poke. Well, 1v1 it's a counter. Sustain and pseudotankiness isn't nearly as useful in fullblown teamfights.

Ap Assasins don't exist with this item.

Correct, they would have no use for it, as they aren't DPS based. And even if they did, a game where tanks, mages and ADs all have clones of the same item would be boring as heck.

Hex is so gold efficient the item doesn't even need to be completed and it will still shutdown every ap assasin.

Who you love so much, I'm sure.

And I love how armor pen is included in all of this bc Riot just loves overloading items.

It was replacement for the fact that the old Maw used to give the highest amount of AD in the game. Riot loves it when things have a point and that was something that the old Maw's passive definitely didn't have.

Both Maw and Abyssal are just lane winners.

Shame that it's a 5v5 game instead of a 1v1 as so many of you love to think when Maw comes up. And they're less lane win items and more don't lose lane items. It's something that AD assassins desperately need since they universally fall off without a lead.

And also magic pen from abyssal doesn't affect minions so it gives no waveclear.

Yes? A downside to buying the item? Good?

Bladerunner7777Aug 4, 20161 votes

Early flat health is infinitely more valuable than piss poor percent health late game

Voluug13Aug 4, 20163 votes

Reaaaaaly depends.

On someone that will not get much more HP, yeah flat is better early.

But on a tank, and specially a jungle tank, % starts being better by 2-3 items unless you build only resistance items.

Bladerunner7777Aug 4, 20163 votes

A 3000 health tank isn't going to notice a 120 health increase

Every champion in the game would notice a 50 health increase at level 1.

Veteran's scars was so bad at the beginning of this season that everyone took runic armor even if they had no built in healing

Champion SkinAug 4, 20168 votes

Thunderlords is the default mastery.. if your champion don't work particularly well with any other keystone mastery Thunderlords is probably best (it is easy to proc and deal ok damage with base damage even with low AP/AD)

kile147Aug 4, 20163 votes

Which is its job really. I'm glad they made at least one mastery that works for champs that don't stack health (grasp), AS (warlords/fervor), or have DoT (deathfire).

HaloDragonXAug 4, 20162 votes

This isn't patch 6.1, TLD isn't the best anymore. Some people take Stormraiders too.

Sire HippingtonAug 4, 20167 votes

it's exactly the opposite: little base tankiness and high base damage(from champ+masteries+runes) leads to tank builts because the damage is already there and all you need is to survive. High base tankiness and low base damage is for agressive item builts, cause you already survive alot and need damage from items.

Actuall tanky masteries would helps real tanks and agressive builts, damagedealers running tank builts only do so because their damage masteries give enough damage already.

ZT XperimentorAug 4, 20169 votes

Don't forget they also nerfed a few parts of it too; most noticeably veteran scars going from +4% hp to +50hp.

morris1Aug 4, 20162 votes

*50, though it's still horrible.

DænariusKhølerinAug 4, 20163 votes

It useed to be +4%??? Dang. I know they added +5 hp to it to bring it up from 45 in a recent patch, but I don't see how that helps much at all.

ZT XperimentorAug 4, 20164 votes

Yeah, it was great for tanks and pretty useless for anyone else; then riot nerfed it.

Ariel the CruelAug 4, 20161 votes

My ADC Kennen greatly appreciated it. (>_>)

ZT XperimentorAug 4, 20161 votes

Before or after the change?

Ariel the CruelAug 5, 20161 votes

After. 50 health early game is a big deal when you kit expects you to tackle people. (>_>)

ZT XperimentorAug 5, 20161 votes

Yeah I kind of figured; I don't see anyone but a few mages & marksmen take it now days.

Ariel the CruelAug 5, 20161 votes

I would hope so. They're the reason it was changed in the first place.

ZT XperimentorAug 5, 20161 votes

Not the point; they already have their own tree, tanks have little to begin with.

Ariel the CruelAug 5, 20161 votes

I'm not saying I agree with the change. But. The reason they changed it was specifically for those champions. So they would have a strong defensive early game option. So long as those champions are using it, Riot has no reason to revert the change; the mastery is working as intended.

ZT XperimentorAug 5, 20161 votes

Which shows their bias against tanks (& for marksmen), given the nerfs to 2 of the tank keystones; which marksmen were abusing beforehand! Seriously why doesn't riot just used the 'melee only' option to prevent things like that from happening? Greed & laziness I'd wager.

Ariel the CruelAug 6, 20161 votes

Seriously why doesn't riot just used the 'melee only' option to prevent things like that from happening?

Probably Thresh .

Gosh DarnAug 4, 20169 votes

They need to start by reverting veteran scars. Makes no sense that most of the offensive masteries are %pen or damage, while the tank masteries are mostly unrelated to AR/MR/HP. Tanks SHOULD get more use out of Veteran Scars than glass cannons.

Then the rest are crap like movement speed, flat hp regen, and reduced damage from monsters. Most of this tree has nothing to do with tankiness at all. You can't find one true tank that can benefit from all 30 points of masteries.

RisenDarkKnightAug 4, 20166 votes

I just realized the OP is right, there is almost nothing in the resolve tree that makes a difference late game, and even early game it doesn't make you much tankier. Strength of Ages is great in the early/mid game, and grasp is OK all game, but their isn't much in the way of real tank stats, not when compared to the power of Thunderlord's/Precision and Fervor of Battle/Bounty Hunter.

People mostly just take the tree for the summoner spell CDR and Grasp/Strength of Ages while not really caring about everything else.

DarkSunSovereignAug 4, 20163 votes

The problem IMO is that tanky champs benefit greatly from damage masteries whereas squishy champs don't benefit at all from defensive masteries.

ModCaptainMårvelousAug 4, 20163 votes

Perfectly balanced? u wot m8?

CarnariusAug 4, 201613 votes

{quoted}

Perfectly balanced? u wot m8?

they were way better than they are now. the most important thing is, you werent forced to put only 5 points in one branch, you could go 0/30/0 or whatever you like to get only those masteries you wanted. it's pretty saqd that now i have to take masteries i don't want at all in order to advance to better masteries

Hyrum GraffAug 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

they were way better than they are now. the most important thing is, you werent forced to put only 5 points in one branch, you could go 0/30/0 or whatever you like to get only those masteries you wanted. it's pretty saqd that now i have to take masteries i don't want at all in order to advance to better masteries

As much as I loved running cheese builds with 30 points in the same tree, this argues against your original point. Fewer options -> more consistency -> easier to balance.

Serpents EmbraceAug 4, 20164 votes

You're right that it's more consistent and easier to balance, but the main point he was making with the post is that while there are fewer options and a more rigid selection protocol - almost all of the options are damage-centric. Going 21/9/0 is for damage, going 9/21/0 is for damage, going 0/9/21 is for damage based on hp...

NoblewindAug 4, 20162 votes

Previous masteries gave you minor stats, and overall were a boring concept hence the decision to revamp them. However, the new system has only added a significant additional layer to balance issues because of the synergy these new masteries create with some champs over others, some items/builds over others.

IMHO the best, truest answer to the problems with masteries is to simply remove them. The most balanced game you'll ever play in LoL is one played with a new account when no one has masteries (or even runes). We've all been there, it's hard af and a challenge. It bothers me when people say "no but they add decision making going in and theres tradeoffs", because while that's a fair point it doesn't mean they aren't an issue. There is plenty of enough complexity to LoL between champion kits + items. Tank Ekko and Tank Fizz would have never existed without the abilities and the aid in defensive scaling gained through masteries, they would have been weird off-meta builds that sometimes worked and sometimes didn't (and easier to balance if it became too strong). We could be in a world where we only needed to balance 2 layers of complexity instead of 3. Note this would also solve some issues within the new player experience.

CarnariusAug 4, 20167 votes

{quoted}

IMHO the best, truest answer to the problems with masteries is to simply remove them

i'd take that in a heartbeat. -25% damage for all damage dealers across the board? i can't say no

ApollogyAug 5, 20162 votes

META stands for Most Effective Tactic Available.

If something works in a given situation, really well, so well that it needs to be nerfed for some reason, then it's not off-meta. You can't have something in a competitive game that both works really well and is off-meta. There's nothing wrong with new strategies popping up. That's how this game was created.

There wasn't always a jungler, there wasn't always a bot lane with a support, there wasn't always a mage or an assassin that goes mid lane, etc... This game evolves as people find new tactics that are more effective than the old ones. For the longest time, Riot refused to support any specific meta. It's only more recently that the 5 roles have been forced upon us by Riot. However, we still have blind pick if we wish to attempt something different.

Reducing the complexity of a game as competitive as League of Legends would really only harm it. New players play games against new players. You have an MMR, match making rating, that literally decides which people you play with and against. Sometimes smurfs get involved in the early levels, but after a few games, Riot's algorithms are able to differentiate the smurfs from the new players. Eventually, smurf accounts will play with smurf accounts. There are challenger level players who create new accounts and go through their ranked placements against gold or platinum level players. (There seems to be a hard cap at Gold 1 for your first ranked placement ever, and the MMR might be somewhat limited here as well).

But that's not a problem for new players, because it's likely that newer players aren't anywhere near that level of play. And if they are, then they're there for a reason. Runes and masteries aren't even that important for newer players or even lower ranked players. Heck, I've got friends in high elo, (plat and diamond), who have no idea what runes to go with. They just use the most basic pages for everything. (AD, armor, MR).

Runes and masteries aren't very complicated, but they're just one aspect of the game, and probably one of the simplest. I've been growing as a player, and I've spent a lot of time learning how to build properly, how to tune my runes and masteries for every situation, etc... But I'll still need knowledge of the hundred+ champions out there so I know what to do if I ever have to fight one of them. I need to play and almost master many champions and learn everything about those champions, their kits, and their match-ups. There are so many relationships in this game, so many variables, that it's nice to have something as concrete as runes and masteries. They give us quantifiable adjustments to how we play the game.

League without runes and masteries would be even more complicated for newer players to learn. They'd be forced to learn more difficult, complicated, and abstract ideas from the start. Runes and masteries are simple. This seasons masteries are even simpler than most. Instead of the 21-9, you're able to run a 18-6-6 if you'd like. It's less essential to fully invest in a secondary tree. (Although, it mostly just depends on what you want to be doing).

KillstradoAug 4, 20161 votes

We have one already too add what would become of the mysteries in the cunning Tree? Mysteries that are used quite frequently. What you're saying is trash good mysteries in two trees so you can be happier because you don't realize how tanky they actually are. Maybe it's your runes that need fixing

CarnariusAug 4, 201620 votes

{quoted}

We have one already too add what would become of the mysteries in the cunning Tree? Mysteries that are used quite frequently. What you're saying is trash good mysteries in two trees so you can be happier because you don't realize how tanky they actually are. Maybe it's your runes that need fixing

sorry but i didnt understand a damn thing