Is it impossible to make a likeable, damage oriented melee champion?

SmurfOfYixuan·6/17/2015, 9:45:22 PM·5 votes·1,517 views

Talon, Diana, Master Yi - "Binary", "feast or famine", "not safe enough", "balls of stats", "either have enough damage to one shot with no counterplay (or in Yi's case 1v5), or not enough damage and be comepletely useless." Rito make better champs!

Ok. Looks like people don't enjoy binary and simple kits, let's add some safety/outplay mechanisms so they have more options.

**Ekko, Nidalee, Zed **- "Overloaded", "too many tools at their disposal", "too safe", "why does these champions have free escapes and/or safe waveclear?" "Wtf he jumps in, killed me, and got out alive!" Rito these champs are too good! Stahp!

I don't understand. What do you guys really want? Is the better if all the melee champions are just utility tanks? Should adc and mages be the only champions capable of dealing any significant damage? Is that what you guys want?

30 Comments

420Templar6/17/2015, 9:48:55 PM9 votes

I personally think Ekko is fun to play against, because there is a decent amount of counterplay to most of his skills. He may have a lot of stuff, but you can find ways to minimize the effectiveness of that stuff.

The fact his passive is an 80% slow and 80% movement speed buff with a .8 AP ratio is kinda BS tho.

thinking man6/17/2015, 10:00:28 PM3 votes

{quoted} "balls of stats"

literally the only way to make a melee damage dealer work

EndlessSorcerer6/17/2015, 9:57:43 PM2 votes

In a game with this many players?

Someone will always find something to complain about.

ApplyForAGrant6/17/2015, 9:56:26 PM2 votes

I think from a purely macro gameplay perspective Talon and Diana are healthy and meet the definition of a balanced assassin. They have weak laning and no real option to escape. They are more reliant on being opportunistic. But they aren't healthy from a purely mechanical perspective because their burst is too fast leaving 0 counterplay on your part, unlike the burst from Zed where you can Zhonya's or QSS to negate his combo.

Slamurai Jack6/17/2015, 11:10:39 PM2 votes

So long as damage oriented melee champions are able to kill people, they will be disliked. People don't like being killed, and they especially don't like being killed quickly, which is what a damage focused melee champ needs to do to you to be viable.

Narzeim6/17/2015, 9:54:24 PM2 votes

Zed has an overloaded kit? Medium damage skill shot and a medium-low damage melee range aoe. Ult is good until zhonyas and qss show up. Shadow is good and he has energy. I wouldn't call that overloaded.

IcyPepper6/17/2015, 10:42:17 PM2 votes

At the risk of having tomatoes thrown at me, I think Vi might be a case where a melee champion can be balanced with. A bit of natural tankiness and damage on a condition (cooldown on the shield dependent on casts, three autoattacks or spell hits) with decent ratios. A good gap closer that has some telegraphing and is dodge-able, but deals more damage if charged longer (risking missing the target, with the self-slow). Not to mention her ultimate is one of the greatest gap closers.

Of course, we all know the complaints Vi has, so not the best example, but I think her design could be tweaked and some ideas from her kit could be implemented into some melee champions for some decent risk/reward without being feast/famine.

Baby Ghoul6/17/2015, 11:23:57 PM1 votes

I don't think Ekko is that out of control, especially if you play a feast or famine type of champion like Fiora Yasuo Diana Talon . When I play against him as those kind of champions I don't have a lot of fun because you strip champs like that down to nothing so quickly.

I think the only way they know how to make an melee AD carry work is to give them stats, and give them little to no utility or safety. What they did to Yasuo was a shame because it could have opened doors for the rest if they went in the other direction.

Currently their required play styles creates an unreliable teammate for most people because the only path for them to contribute is to play a little risky, and when they're matched against someone with a lot of CC and tankyness, that's just not a great option. Fiora is getting a rework in a couple months, so hopefully they can start to addressing this issue with melee carries because they have a lot of potential. However after the direction they took with Yasuo, I don't know if it will be anything positive.

Rinky Dinky6/18/2015, 2:57:22 AM1 votes

To answer your question?

People just like to bitch

Lugg6/18/2015, 4:11:17 AM1 votes

Champions need to be countered by ALL other champions in some way. That isn't the case with about half of the champions currently in the game. Even if you are against a hard counter, you should have at least a small chance to outplay them.

LilxPaprika6/18/2015, 4:39:48 AM1 votes

ya had another look its not as bad there is room to dodge.

its just his entire kit as a whole is strong. mobility + huge shield with aoe stun (telegraphed but still) his ult makes him a half decent damage soaker since you focus him he just ults you dont focus him he kills your whole team. and you just burnt everything on him

i really like his kit though i wouldnt change anything just tone some things down a bit is all. adding mana cost to his ult might go a long way we'll see.

Minrog6/18/2015, 9:12:35 AM1 votes

Nidalee Diana are both mages. If you took Nidalee's human form away nobody would even notice her. Talon Zed both can qualify as mages too in that they rely on their skill combos to do damage. I get that they stack AD to improve their damage output, but they hardly count as melee auto-attackers.

Ekko MasterYi seem to be using more auto-attacks than abilities, and I don't think they are too bad at, Ekko seems overtuned atm but I'm sure we'll see a couple of minor nerfs and then not to much after that.

Zed LeeSin Nidalee Leblanc are just too difficult to punish, it's not the way they do damage that is an issue. They can do low-risk plays and get medium to high risk rewards as a result because of how easy it is for them to ignore counterplay.

OJ1916/18/2015, 9:42:15 AM1 votes

{quoted}

Talon, Diana, Master Yi - "Binary", "feast or famine", "not safe enough", "balls of stats", "either have enough damage to one shot with no counterplay (or in Yi's case 1v5), or not enough damage and be comepletely useless." Rito make better champs!

Ok. Looks like people don't enjoy binary and simple kits, let's add some safety/outplay mechanisms so they have more options.

**Ekko, Nidalee, Zed **- "Overloaded", "too many tools at their disposal", "too safe", "why does these champions have free escapes and/or safe waveclear?" "Wtf he jumps in, killed me, and got out alive!" Rito these champs are too good! Stahp!

I don't understand. What do you guys really want? Is the better if all the melee champions are just utility tanks? Should adc and mages be the only champions capable of dealing any significant damage? Is that what you guys want?

Sorry but there is massive room inbetween a master yi or talon and a zed/nidalee/ekko lol.

A kit can be complicated, it's even a good thing, but you can't give them too much. For example Zed, has safety, waveclear, poke, massive and safe all in, manaless, and his optimal build path is lifesteal+penetration.

Zed is actually to the point where the poke mages who would normally counter a hard-engage assassin like zed, actually run OOM before causing him any meaningful grief!

Knight SoIaire 6/18/2015, 10:03:45 AM1 votes

personaly i think that riot goes too far with multi purpose tools

its fine for a champion to have a safety skill but when he gets to have get in/juke/get out/outplay mechanics in one skill its not so good becuase he can always do the thing that you cant compete with

the problem lies in designers ... they create what they think is awesome ... not what should be in this game

Kotex6/17/2015, 10:02:14 PM1 votes

While i do agree with what youre saying, at the same time though... i still feel giving ekko 2 gap closers WITH a speed buff, and a 90 sec ult that does massive burst damage and heals him for no cost (at the time, but 100 mana is still not much better) seemed kind of ludicrous.

(obligatory Teemo mention as per forum rules)

Kazaashi6/17/2015, 10:04:46 PM1 votes

People want to blame the champion they are playing against because it is easier than admiring they made a mistake or are not as good as they think.

TehNACHO6/17/2015, 10:37:12 PM1 votes

Yasuo could have been a champion that actually meets the requirements if they hit him right.

But instead of nerfing his damage and reworking his weird as fuck power curve, they nerf his utility, unfortunately turning him into:

"Binary", "feast or famine", "not safe enough", "balls of stats", "either have enough damage to one shot with no counterplay (or in Yi's case 1v5), or not enough damage and be comepletely useless."

Reikken6/17/2015, 10:45:34 PM1 votes

@ topic, Nocturne

LilxPaprika6/17/2015, 10:46:05 PM1 votes

This crit chance change would make Zed's talons and even master yi's damage more realistic http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/O1PXlzLZ-crit-chance-a-prospective-rework

A QOL Crit Chance Idea/Change. Currently if they get lucky they can potentially get two back to back crits with just ghostblade.

doiminat0r36006/17/2015, 10:58:12 PM1 votes

Irelia Galio Garen Rammus Warwick Udyr XinZhao All of which are reliable, fun to play with and against (some more than others), and dont have to 1v5 to make an impact.