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I don't think it's even possible to have a meta where every champion is viable

Real Sexy Yoona·7/13/2018, 5:52:31 PM·41 votes·12,569 views

Edit: I don't think it's even possible to have a meta where every champion is equally viable in League of Legends.

The title is kinda stupid because a meta, I believe is the most effective tactic available? or something that works better/best in the game. And if everything works equally well, there wouldn't be a meta theoretically. I could be wrong.

Anyways, here is what came into mind that would make said meta impossible: I am self aware that this is a narrow, tunnel vision example but take a look at Ashe and Rengar. Let's exclude grasp of the undying Tank Rengar Top for this example to work better Keep in mind that when I mention "one shotting", it's referring to one shotting squishies, champions that generally don't stack defensive items.

Ashe is literally incapable of one shotting because of the nature of her kit. Even a pretty fed ashe that's an item above everyone else isn't able to 100-0 you in 1-3 seconds. Rengar in the other hand, specializes in one shotting and is capable of doing so even if he's an item behind because of the nature of his kit and the lethality items he utilizes. Lethality takes advantage of you not building armor and so even if you are ahead, you can get screwed if you only build offensively.

Now let's say Riot nerfs all sources of damage by whatever percent and nerf one shotting sources (skills, items etc) so one shotting ceases to exist.
Since Ashe is a dps champion that gets stronger as the fight gets longer, she'll become way more viable than Rengar who's kit tells him to one shot when he can't anymore.

I mean people are already doing this in a very smaller scale by taking resolve as a secondary. Usually it's on champs that has any form of DPS, and not on one shotting assassins. They are essentially self-inflicting a nerf to their overall damage while increasing their likelihood and duration of survival which grants them more DPS. This is evident when you find two sparring champs early in lane and one of them takes resolve as as secondary and the other doesn't.

** If you haven't caught on yet, I think there are champions and items-design wise that are keeping other champions from being equally viable. And if you nerf the oppressing champions (and items), you are indirectly buffing the champions that were oppressed and making them meta. So the oppressors become the oppressed and the oppressed become the oppressors. **

If this still doesn't make sense, I'm saying if you make one shotting champions unable to one shot, you are indirectly buffing DPS champions that thrives in extended fights where they don't get bursted down quickly. It would be a buff to Yasuo, Vayne, Ashe, Tristana, Twitch, Kalista, Swain, Nasus, Ornn etc.

So if burst damage isn't a thing, you would then find people trying to find ways in keeping these DPS champs stay alive even longer- which makes shielding supports meta again. Literally, if you can't burst down (assassinate) any DPS ADC fast enough, Soraka, Janna, Sona's viability is going to skyrocket. Yeah even Sona because you would be keeping everyone alive longer while being safe from being one shotted yourself.
Which is why nerfing all sources of damage greatly favors some champions over others.

I just remember throwing up after watching the WE vs C9 games in worlds because of how cancerous a Kogmaw was while being peeled by an entire team. I actually believe that C9 was a better team mechanically but WE just had a better read in the ardencenser meta which was brain-dead.

I feel like one side is always going to be crying because of the other side when it comes to assassins (burst damage) vs DPS squishies/Shield supports/ Mages. As assassins are only viable when they are able to one shot because they heavily lack DPS, while the other side becomes useless when there is practically no counter play to an assassin's burst. Fyi a janna support usually doesn't buy Zhonyas- it's not some universal item for every squishy that's not an assassin. What do you do? Change the design for these assassins so they do more dps instead of burst? Then people are going to cry about the design change and how the assassinating skills/kit was iconic for that champion. Zed isn't zed anymore if he doesn't burst but deals DPS like a yasuo. How do you fix this.

31 Comments

the weeaboo7/13/2018, 8:50:12 PM9 votes

Disagreed. I played Dota for a long time and I wouldn't say that back when i was playing (when Arc Warden came out) that there were any heroes that were truly as god awful as some of the weak picks in League. You could pikc pretty much any hero and do well. I cant say the same about League.

Meep Man7/13/2018, 6:54:02 PM6 votes

For pro play? No, thats impossible.. But other MOBAs have proven that, outside of champions that are just hard to play and can't be played by your average person to great success, you can have a meta where every champion can have a serious impact on a game and not be overshadowed. I've always found that Dota 2 really shows that it is possible. There are community favorites and easier heroes to play, but you can pick just about anyone and have a ton of impact on a match.

Pika Fox7/13/2018, 6:30:47 PM4 votes

I mean, everything is viable in regular play. Garen jungle can get you to masters just as much as a katarina support can. Competitive play is where things start becoming unviable, not so much because things are op or up so much as they need things to be consistent.

kjm997/14/2018, 2:44:31 AM3 votes

Many things still lack meaningful counterplay. Plenty of abilities have poorly represented hitboxes like Blitzcrank's hook and Irelia's stun, or are impossible to fight like Lulu's polymorph or Yasuo's windwall. The core problem with balance though is assassins, without them the game goes something like ADC > Tank > Mage > ADC, everything has some capability of dealing with each other, when assassins come into the mix they can destroy both ADCs and Mages and in most cases have no weaknesses. An assassins' gameplay fantasy is inherently against counterplay. A burst mage usually has to land skillshots and won't always kill in a single rotation, an assassin has point and click and other easy to land abilities that will almost always kill in a single rotation. Assassins need to be removed and shifted into different classes we already have like divers, burst mages, and bruisers.

50000000000000007/14/2018, 1:52:54 AM3 votes

Meta actually refers to metagame, which is essentially a game about the game. It's not actually an acronym.

For example, the game has 3 lanes, the jungle, and 5 players. Over time, multiple strategies evolved, each competing against another. For today's example, the adc+support strategy is competing against bruiser+support/double mage/etc. Picking different champions in response to understanding the current trend is like a game on its own, and that's what metagame is.

Kai Guy7/13/2018, 6:12:36 PM2 votes

Yes and no, See thing is you also have to account for Different MMRs. It is entirely possible for every champion in the game to be viable how ever not all of them will be viable in different MMR. Low skillcap champs might fall off upper MMR but in the hands of less skilled or experienced players they can win matches for that player in their mmr. High skill cap champs might be wrecking it in proplay but gutter tier in bronze.

Never expect every champion to be viable in your personal MMR, that's unrealistic.

thecowley7/14/2018, 6:19:06 AM2 votes

For the number of champs, if we can get over half as viable in at least one role, and the others viable with good team play and team comp,.id feel very good about that as a game designer/balance team.

Honestly I think they should slow down on new champ development, and focus on vgus and balance changes for next session.

Malix Farwin7/14/2018, 3:17:50 PM2 votes

Its possible to have every champion viable but not every champion meta, theres a huge difference. Right now despite popular belief, most champions are viable(and if you are taking a look at the top performers of those champions they are beating meta WR). Meta champions are just basically low effort champions with high success or high effort and extremely high success.

ModCaptainMårvelous7/14/2018, 5:19:03 AM2 votes

Completely true.

Even in DOTA, a game with a core around counterpicks and almost every hero being viable to some extent, had a "meta" where certain heroes were greatly favored over others. You're never going to have 100% pure pickrate on everyone as there's always going to be champs who counter others to such a degree that their existence blocks others from appearing.

Not to say this is a good or bad thing, just a balance fact you'll need to accept.

AugustHeatHaze7/14/2018, 10:50:25 AM2 votes

it is possible for all champion archtypes to be viable though... unlike right now and to not have all heros in f tier. you can get close to being perfectly balanced.

Khristophoros7/13/2018, 6:06:40 PM1 votes

You're not taking into account the macro play champs have. It's not just how you perform in fights. It's also how you pick your fights.

Ashe vs Rengar is actually a good example of two champs that can coexist even though Rengar automatically wins 1v1 against her if you just pointed the champs at each other and went at it.

Ashe can play around her counters because she can group with her team and hit an ult on a priority target to initiate a teamfight or pick. Rengar cannot actually stop her from doing that. Ideally you would land it on Rengar (or whichever assassin) and start the fight by just killing them off that pick. Then Ashe's counter is eliminated and her team can easily win the fight. Of course Rengar can play around that too. But the point is both champs can play around each other, it's not just "ok they fight and Rengar wins."

Caretaker Jack7/15/2018, 4:35:43 AM1 votes

Doesn't riot strive to just have every champ at 50% win rate and toss a few high skill picks at like 45-47ish??

Like, I highly doubt riot is even worried about defining a meta let alone making sure every champ is in it. They're just going for that 50% sweet spot usually.

Dope Solo7/13/2018, 7:04:43 PM1 votes

100% of all champs is certainly lofty. What should be considered an attainable goal, 50%, or should we just settle for the current 5-10%?

hhaavviikk7/13/2018, 7:14:41 PM1 votes

well when you think about it there are champions that are strong early game and weak late game, there are champions that are weak early game and strong late game, in some cases, like adc's, it's an entire class that functions that way, so in order to have both of those designs be viable you'd need a meta where games basically have a 50/50 chance of ending in the mid game thus making early game champions strong or ending in the late game making late game champions strong

The Space Cowboy7/13/2018, 7:40:54 PM1 votes

While I agree that a game with utility variety can’t be perfectly balanced it’s possible to get really close. The damage output is easy enough to balance on champs and items, but a power score needs to be worked out on cc, mobility and other utility. Then just make all champs have the same power score between damage and utility combined. Same with items.

AtheosisX7/13/2018, 8:33:22 PM1 votes

Viable? Yes it's possible. Meta? No probably not. Being in the meta is about more than viability though.

LeftyRaydy7/13/2018, 11:58:01 PM1 votes

The problem is Items right not the diversity is not there to support all champions. They should really take a deep look into Items and fix that. With Mages there is basically no variety at all.

Automated Riven7/14/2018, 5:32:15 AM1 votes

I agree. However you can have a theoretical league where every champion has a unique niche that they fill better then any other champion. Which means that every champion is viable in specific teamcomps.

The largest problem with the meta of league is that there is largely only one viable strategy at this time.

For example. When was the last time you saw a teamcomps that was dedicated to sieging and poking. And actually was built to NOT teamfight. Cause for me it was like 3-4 years ago.

Rocnation987/14/2018, 12:55:16 PM1 votes

It really doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

woodvsmurph7/14/2018, 2:34:40 PM1 votes

There will never be a meta where every adc is at equal playrate and winrate and all classes and champs have completely equal viability in every match... if that's what you are getting at. And that's not peoples' goal in most cases.

The goal I believe most people have is that they should not feel like they are unable to have a fair CHANCE to win if they lock in a certain champ. Like if I'm an urgot main and mundo top is meta... I shouldn't have to work 10x as hard to stand any chance of winning. That would be bad balancing. Now it might be somewhat harder because mundo just does things better based on the role toplaners are typically filling in this meta (sustain tank), but that doesn't mean urgot can't win if I just play him better than the other guy plays mundo and I work well with my team.

Some champs are designed to win early, others to win late, others... are just average at all points in the game. Thus... what I said in paragraph 1 and what you suggested. But that doesn't mean the advantage an early game champ might have in an early game snowball meta has to be impossible to overcome. They will have the advantage yes. But at long as they are balanced properly, you can't miss half your stuff and kill someone 1v1 or 5v5 if the person you are trying to kill hits all their stuff and plays it properly. So the scaling champ survives early by playing better and playing SAFE and begins to see scaling work in his favor. And eventually, he drags out the game time beyond the average, and wins because he's now at his powercurve's strong point and you've long passed yours. Or vice versa. Games average a long time and the meta favors cait rather than kalista. But you still have early game advantage. So you exploit that, play better than the caitlyn, and snowball early game. Now even though the meta favors cait, she never reaches the 5-6 items where she completely outclasses you and you are able to close out the game and win off your early lead. That is kind of how it SHOULD play out. Where player skill and team execution matters more than... I picked more meta champ.

Larriet7/14/2018, 11:56:16 PM1 votes

Metagame literally means "outside the game"; as in, it's not stuff enforced by the game, but stuff that players do. Which is why it's always used for "optimal" strategies, since that's what players do!

By that definition, counterpicking someone with Vayne while Vayne is horrible into any other character would be "meta", but I don't think that's enough for people to call it "meta". So there's some nuance in the way people say it.

I totally agree the game will never be totally balanced; characters have to be balanced around how players play them, which is why a lot of new champs get hotfix buffs in a day or two if they're struggling and why some champs are stronger in certain levels of play (since people don't play around Garen in low ranks, Garen has to be balanced so that he doesn't steamroll those players, for example).