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Vayne is ridiculous

35285419DEL1··24 votes·2,397 views

Practically cliche' topic at this point I bet, but Vayne's kit is so difficult to play against and counter I have no idea how riot even thought this was balanced.

Problem 1: Her Q (Tumble) is basically a "screw you" to anyone with a skillshot. Most of the time the only way to beat an adc is with hard engage and crowd control, but most CC is skillshot oriented (Blitz Q, Thresh Q/E, Naut Q, pretty much anyone that isn't taric), its cooldown is extremely short at later ranks without even building CDR, and the attack damage boost is gigantic when compared with the mana cost.

Problem 2: Her W (Silver Bolts) is impossible to counter against. To counter most Marksmen, you build armor; but Vayne has true damage. So you build health to counter said true damage and then it makes it even more brutal because it has a max health scale. The only counter to true damage is health, but her w basically covers itself from countering.

Problem 3: Her E (Condemn) may be a bit awkward to get the stun right sometimes, but the problem is that outside of lane it's pretty easy to stun people, and even when you don't stun people you can use it to push engages and ganks back, basically giving vayne a free ticket home. But when she does land the stun, it lasts so long. Combining the stun and her W with even a little attack speed basically says "you're dead if I hit you with my E"

Problem 4: Her ult is such a ridiculous steroid, 100 mana is a decent cost, but the amount of stats she gets from just pressing a button and spending some mana is angering. She gets almost a fully stacked item 3141 worth of attack damage, invisibility on her "screw you" and her passive gives her 90 movespeed... considering that her Q and normal passive already make her difficult to escape from without a flash dash or speed boost (with still a slim chance of getting away) this just makes it so much more frustrating to play against.

Before you comment about how she's "balanced" take a close look at a vayne in game...(Also I know I pretty much ranted about her whole kit but the whole damn thing is so powerful)

32 Comments

AstroFerrari 3 votes

I'm not a Vayne main by any means, but let me play devil's advocate for a minute. Vayne is balanced in the sense that her early game is lacking, she has very low range (maybe even the lowest) among ADCs, and really needs to snowball to be of any use in her roll. She can't do ok, she can't do alright, she NEEDS to be strongly ahead of her opponents to be an effective part of the team. With a lot of people play CC/Tanky champions in the current meta, Vayne's true damage along with attack speed is all she has going for her, along with the need to build attack speed. She has no reliable escape, and no way to save herself from point-and-click CC other than the stealth she gains from her ult and that isn't always available. She's outranged and outdamaged in her early game by Jinx, Caitlyn, and Tristana. Not to mention Cait and Trist have useful escapes. Jinx and Cait also have traps to help them get away, plus Jinx's passive. All Vayne can do is flash, and if that doesnt work out she's dead. Take it from me, even though Vayne has her strengths, her weaknesses can make her useless before he strengths can be utilized.

macromite6 votes
  1. people who say has vayne has bad laning or low range are wrong, vayne has average laning and average range.
  2. vayne only needs one or two items to get rolling into late game, which is a lot less than a lot of other champions.
  3. tanky cc champions tend to need to stay close to a target to cc them, or to hit long range skillshot cc, vayne has non ultimate counters to both, as well as a way to get around any build the tank is building.
  4. jinx has low rang on her minigun, trist has low rang early.
  5. cait and jinx have both got worse escapes,
  6. if vayne get shit by either cait or jinxes traps then the vayne is probably not equally skilled, or the cait or jinx are not going to follow the trap up.

plus the fact that vayne is not a solo laner on bottom lane, and pretty much any and every flaw she has can be adequately covered. This isn't the problem though, it's her ridiculous strength that needs to be removed.

AstroFerrari 2 votes
  1. I said her laning phase is lacking. Tumble barely counts as an escape and her E is dependent on brainless positioning by her opponents. Anyone with their head on straight knows not to fight Vayne against a wall or in tight spaces.
  2. That's true, but she's completely reliant on AAs and her passive grants movement speed. The way she is made, that's a given.
  3. Wrong. Bard has point and click CC and doesnt need to get need Vayne. His ult can also freeze her. Blitz can just hook her, and so can thresh. Brand also has point and click CC. So does Udyr, and Sona. And all of these champions are all going to approach Vayne with an ADC or during a gank. There are so many ways to shut her down.
  4. Jinx can just poke with her Rocket Launcher and play passively. If a smart, skilled Jinx is against Vayne, they arent going to be aggressive. Trist still has reliable escape and can play passively.
  5. Cait's escape is fantastic in skilled hands, and synergizes well with the right support. Jinx I agree with, she has almost no escape.
  6. That's not necessarily true, a skilled Cait has a huge advantage over a skilled Vayne in terms of range and kiting potential. Jinx uses her traps to secure kills or counter a potentially bad all in by Vayne.

And also no, it's not like any scrub can pick up Vayne for the first time and go 20/0/0. Whether you want to believe it or not, Vayne takes a lot of mechanical skill to play effectively.

macromite2 votes
  1. on your retort to my one I think you're forgetting the fact that her e isn't just a stun like bards, it comes with a knockback.
  2. you don't need to be strongly ahead to get two items. that's what I was getting at.
  3. uh, I don't think you know what point and click means. if it has a travel time and it heads in a straight line regardless of other units, is a skill shot, really the only champion I know with ranged point and click hard cc is taric. and again the problem is an average vayne player can get around most of these, and punish you for using your cc as an engage or disengage at anything but point blank.
  4. a passive lane is a lane vayne wins, she scales harder than just about any other champion.
  5. cait's escape isn't bad, but its not as good as vaynes. short dash plus slow vs short dash plus knockback/stun
  6. in the high skill matchup the vayne is never getting hit by any of those delayed usage traps, hell I don't think anyone is. the only times you get hit by those are if you're completely ignoring them.

Not any scrub can pick up vayne and go 20/0/0, but any scrub can pick her up and expect to get a good score, and that proves that she has a simple easy kit with a high skill ceiling, which isn't bad, but for being so simple she should not have the complex problems of having to deal with her. she's an example of a champion that's fun to play but not fun to play against.

AstroFerrari 2 votes
  1. i didnt forget that, most vayne players only use the e to knockback if they need to get away
  2. yeah i got what you meant
  3. ok then what about Annie, in which every 4th ability auto stuns you? I made a mistake in mentioning some of those above chamions as having point and click cc, but it really isn't like the CC from those champions is extremely difficult to land either. If the enemy knows Vayne is the problem, Vayne is just gonna get focused.
  4. Not true, the jungle and bot lane can just have their jungler camp and bait her out to put her behind. Come on man she sint invincible
  5. Odds are vayne isn't going to use that for a knockback and even if she does, its going to have a very long cooldown for awhile since every Vayne maxes E last. She cant Condemn you on every failed engage/ trade
  6. Those traps are either going to be hidden in brush (in caits case) or used in team-fights or to run away (for jinx). In a higher skill matchup, Vayne is going to be harassed/ poked down and these trap abilities are a last resort or a method get away from ganks or aggressive supports.

Also not true, and even if that does happen, that shows a major lack of skill on the opposing sides fault. This goes double if theyre using champs they are used to playing. But are champions really meant to be "fun to play against"? Do you get beat in lane by Jinx or Cait and say "Hey at least it isn't Vayne, im losing really bad but damn im having fun :D". I'm just saying

Trash ADC Btw1 votes

Yes. Fun to play against is one of the first things that should be thought about in champion design.

I have my own qualms with Jinx's design, but a skilled Vayne WILL use her E to disengage, and unless you plan on all-inning twice in... 15 seconds? You're not getting her. The fact is that Cait's Dash can't dodge skillshots and still likely CC the target. Vayne's EQ can.

AstroFerrari 1 votes

Is she really that bad unless shes fed though? Her E has a long cooldown and it's use feels more situational to me. Idk, maybe it's only cause I play blind pick a lot.

Trash ADC Btw1 votes

It's not THAT bad, but it is quite powerful and allows her to escape a lot of the damage her early game should do to her late game. I think vayne is MOSTLY balanced, with a few outliers. Sated Devourer, however, has turned her into a 100% ban in all ranked games I play.

macromite1 votes
  1. exactly my point, she has it to escape if she needs it.
  2. vayne is practically designed to dodge skill shots and punish people for it, getting focused should also never be considered a part of counterplay, especially against someone designed with escape in mind, it never works out right.
  3. getting camped by the jungler should not be considered a part of counterplay, camping a lane is something the jungle can only do if they can accept the fact that they are not going to help any other lane, and if vayne needs it to be played against, this is terrible design, and it makes people want to play the game less.
  4. heavy trades don't happen on bot very often, and you can be sure when they do its either because vayne is going in or vayne isn't putting up with that shit.
  5. I'll spell out my point for you, vayne isn't getting hit by the traps because either they are being placed visibly near her, or in caits case she isn't facechecking the bush. its not her job to go into the bush. in teamfights the jinx traps are going to be walked around by anyone with a brain, unless you can ignore the cc, and if jinx is close enough to place them behind vayne, odds are jinx is far to close and is about to take a beating, or the fight has already spiraled past that point and that traps are pointless.

jinx and cait are both much more fun to play against, you can catch them, and they can catch you. with cait its a game of watch for traps and survive the sniper fire till midgame, with jinx its a game about closing the distance and kicking her shit before she scales past you, with vayne its a game about begging your midlaner and jungler to come help you because you can't beat her solo in lane as almost any champion, and those that do get outscaled hard.

AstroFerrari 1 votes
  1. Her E is going to be on a hefty cooldown for most of the game an can only be used on 1 person. It's more of a situational tool to disengage than an escape
  2. And why not? She's the ADC, shouldn't people be actively making sure she doesn't get fed? She's the AD CARRY. Since that's one of vaynes stengths, shouldn't you not give her ample opportunity to dodge your skills or at least have somewhat better timing on your part?
  3. I personally never count out the jungler no matter what ADC I use, and neither should any other ADC. If you don't consider a jg to be part of counterplay, the jungler will eventually gank if the lane is pushed or under constant pressure.
  4. They dont happen often but they do happen, and it isn't always to the will of a Vayne. The game doesn't revolve around her.
  5. She can get hit by traps utilized by skillful players, it really isn't that farfetched. Why isn't it Vayne's job to go into the bushes for stealth? Why should she stay out in the open the whole time? Theres more than one angle to farm from. Jinx can time her traps around the moves of her teammates, it's not that hard.

So by fun to play against, you mean beatable right? Don't get me wrong, some of what your saying is reasonable but other parts of it just seem really emotionally charged. I've played many good games, so-so games, and plenty of bad games as Vayne. I don't main her and have lost one who carried her team, but I feel like there were many more factors in play other than the fact that she seems OP.

AstroFerrari 1 votes

I also would like to add that I totally understand what you're saying and I'm really not trying to fight you. I just want people to see the bigger picture of things that show Vayne can beaten.

Cowgirl Ed2 votes

{quoted}

I'm not a Vayne main by any means, but let me play devil's advocate for a minute.

SHE HAS NOT FUCKING LOW RANGE FFS vayne's retarded atm, deal with the facts

AstroFerrari 3 votes

shes outranged by every other viable adc in the current botlane meta. There are no facts to be faced. If shes really such a hard match up for you, play smarter around her and shut her down with cc.

Trash ADC Btw1 votes

If you can land the CC. Her range isn't BAD, it's just not good. It's far enough back to passively farm without being hit automatically, for instance.

Cogito Ergo Sol 1 votes

Correct me if I am right, but you have just done a awesome thing, am I right dear Murdock?

AdanChristo2 votes

lol this is a disgrace of a post, how you got 6 upvotes shows the decline of the world. Vayne has ALWAYS been like this and you decide NOW to call her OP? get out of bronze first and then talk

ApexInTheCircle2 votes

{quoted}

lol this is a disgrace of a post, how you got 6 upvotes shows the decline of the world. Vayne has ALWAYS been like this and you decide NOW to call her OP? get out of bronze first and then talk

It's not that she's overpowered, it's that every other adc has been nerfed. She is now the top tier adc with no other contenders. My main adc is Quinn and I still have problems with her due to her ability to disengage with her E and Botrk which is a core item on her.

IMO she needs to be either nerfed, or other adcs need to be brought up to her level.

brad1 votes

{quoted}

(Also I know I pretty much ranted about her whole kit but the whole damn thing is so powerful)

is it

AdanChristo1 votes

so what if more people pick her? why should riot nerf her?

OnanThaMan1 votes

Because having an extremely high pick rate with an extremely high win say 50%+ is a sign that some toning down is in order. I'd say make the stun on her e scale now instead of the flat amount it is now, or remove the flat amount of damage on her w and maybe buff the % a bit more.

brad1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Onan the man99,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XkUYvdBH,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2015-08-09T14:45:56.362+0000)

Because having an extremely high pick rate with an extremely high win say 50%+ is a sign that some toning down is in order. I'd say make the stun on her e scale now instead of the flat amount it is now, or remove the flat amount of damage on her w and maybe buff the % a bit more.

the win rate is as close to 50% as any champion will ever get

do you have eyes??? are we looking at the same picture???

OnanThaMan1 votes

The Fact that she can maintain such a high win rate with such a high popularity shows she is that strong. Swain has around or above 50% win rate but doesn't even hit 5% popularity so the reason he maintains it is because those who play him are good at him and play him because they like his theme/kit. Unlike Vayne who is just arguably the strongest adc right now.

brad1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Onan the man99,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XkUYvdBH,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-09T19:05:31.129+0000)

such a high win rate

today i learned that a 50.019% win rate is high

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

she wins half of every match shes played in......let that sink in

brad1 votes

{quoted}

she wins half of every match shes played in......let that sink in

is that not the epitome of balance?

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

the amount of games she is played by how many don't even main her....for someone who is supposed to be "hard" i don't think she should be able to keep that stable 50% win rate if its even that

Unironic SJW1 votes

Vayne main with about 400 games on her here. I'm not high elo or anything but I think I understand the champion.

First off, Vayne is too strong right now, Vayne should NEVER be a 50% win rate champion especially with her pick rate. However, it's largely a product of the meta.

First off, ADC nerfs. Vayne couldn't, and probably still can't, lane against Graves. Vayne can't even with at her level 6 and BORK powerspikes because Graves just has too much burst unless your team camps him. Graves gets nerfed out of meta. She has trouble laning against Corki (she needs to outplay Corki hard to win really). She has trouble laning against Lucian (she can win at level 6 but it's hard). All those ADCs have been nerfed.

Second, poke supports are weak. Sona + Cait, Graves + Annie, Vayne cannot win those lanes, period, without a huge skill difference (at least Gold versus Bronze or Plat vs Silver) or without jungler camp and possibly something like Soraka/Janna/Nami designed to protect weak early laners from feeding. Though I think one of the worst matchups for Vayne that isn't being played right now is Karma. Karma + lane bully ADC can pretty much zone Vayne off the creep wave if they hit their shit. But what's in meta right now? Leona (a good Vayne will snowball off Leona), Naut (see Leona), Alistar (Alistar literally can do nothing to a good Vayne except get chunked by W), stuff like that. Furthermore, Vayne likes playing WITH those CC tanks, and doesn't get much offensively out of poke supports other than zoning to allow her to CS freely. Ali headbutt > pulverize combo is a free condemn wall slam and kill for Vayne. If Leona engages the enemy ADC in a bush, same deal, condemn, free kill.

Finally players tend to play the matchup wrong. For example, Cait can beat Vayne if neither player makes a mistake but if Vayne makes a mistake, she condems Cait away and tumbles away, while if Cait makes a mistake, Cait feeds Vayne a kill. Players will play super passive against Vayne even if they're stronger because they don't know how weak she is levels 3-6, and in most cases until she gets BORK.

anyway, I don't know what needs to be done because Vayne is too easy to win with right now in terms of laning and snowballing (but for god sake don't complain about her late game, she's a hypercarry, that's what hypercarries do) but i think if the meta shifts back to lane bully ADCs and utility adcs with poke, then she'll settle down to a more natural level.

also i'd like to add that vayne cannot lane against annie and if i'm playing vayne i nearly always ban annie unless i'm playing normals and not giving a shit

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

what riot needs to do is force her knock back to scale with level and reduce her base mana regen since she can spam her Qs too much without being afraid of going OOM too much and also her flat true damage needs to be gutted and her % true damage to be buffed to compensate so that way she can still be a tank killer late game but not a squishy killer early game

O Fallen Scholar1 votes

Vayne's problem is her E. Too safe because of it. Other than that she is fine.

Unironic SJW1 votes

Indeed, but a lot of that is the meta, not her. She was one of the lowest win rate champs in the game about 3-4 months ago and she's gotten a bunch of minor QOL buffs but nothing really major. Her strength right now is due to nerfs on other ADCs + meta changes that favor her.

YossarianSensei1 votes

I still don't understand the Vayne QQ. Her entire kit is dedicated to killing champions 1 target at a time, obviously in small skirmishes she's going to have a massive advantages

But there are more things a champ can offer other than single target DPS. Vayne would be utter trash tier if she couldn't take on ADCs like Varus/Ashe/Lucian in a 1v1, and even so it's not easy for Vayne to come out on top

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