Marksmen: Inherent Dissatisfaction

Bronze GOAT·12/22/2018, 3:46:50 PM·32 votes·13,145 views

The ADC role creates dissatisfaction for marksmen players and other players depending on the meta. This problem is more pronounced in crit marksmen, but some of it can be found across the class as a whole. Basically, the class' identity screams dissatisfaction. Let me use an example to explain what I mean here.

Now this isn't necessarily a balance post, so these examples aren't really meant to make a point about balance. I'm just explaining the topic.

Let's start off with the polar opposite of a scaling marksmen with Talon. Talon's goal every game is to use his superior early game abilities to create a snowball for himself and his team in order to close out the game before 30 minutes. Now Talon may not always achieve his goal, matchups, teammates, junglers, etc. can all put a damper on that, but for the most part these are what they are. Now for a marksmen like Jinx Jinx, who is Talon's polar opposite, she would rather farm safely through the laning phase, attempt to be of some use in the 20 minute team fights, then come online at the 30 minute mark to carry the game.

This brings us to our first problem. Talon has the early game to attempt to reach his win condition and Jinx has the late game. The dissatisfaction here is simple, every single game, Talon will at least have an opportunity to try to carry. He may not always succeed, but even when he doesn't, he still gets 20-30 minutes to give it a shot almost every single game. In Jinx's case, she may not always get to the point where she can try to carry, and in this meta, that is even more the case. Problem 1: Whether they fail or not, early game champions will "always" be relevant at some point in the game, while for scaling marksmen, reaching a relevant point can feel like a coin toss.

The second problem is time. In previous seasons the time was pretty evenly split. Marksmen had about 25-40 minutes, while an assassin would have about 10-25 minutes to attempt to carry. Now, marksmen have been pushed back to 30 minutes, while simultaneously game length has been shortened as well. Problem 2: The 25-40 minute window of relevance for marksmen has shrunk to what some could argue half of what it once was.

The final problem is dependency. Now take the other two problems with Jinx and add the fact that her ability to get to the late game and her success when getting there is also half dependent on another person(s), her support and/or front line. So not only is the majority of her game play experience just a build up to an end goal that may never happen, but she also heavily relies on others in order to do anything throughout the game. Problem 3: Dependent on support and front line.

The only time marksmen satisfaction is high is when they come online early or their late game vastly outshines everyone else's. When these things collide, you get the ardent meta and these problems become what other roles are faced with. At the moment, neither of these are true, so they are in a pretty bad spot. I think the best way to address marksmen satisfaction is to lower the discrepancy between their early, mid, and late games more; so a champion like Talon would be only slightly more effective than Jinx early, they'd be even in the mid game, and Jinx would be slightly more effective late.. Based on how their kits work, the only way to do this would be to buff Jinx's defensive itemization while nerfing her damage, so she can survive early even when she's weak. That would ruin her and the class though because marksmen only play this role for its ranged glass-cannon gameplay and that would take that away.

With that being the case, the answer would have to lie not only in marksmen itemization, but in the support's as well. The meta supports are all aggressive catchers and carries in their own right like Pyke and Brand. These guys can get you a lead and when played alongside an ADC like Lucian it is a win for both them and their marksmen, but when paired with a passive marksmen like Ashe, they only weaken their early game and her late game. You're never going to get people to match their picks in solo que so you have to give them options in game to make it work. What I mean is Riot needs to make aggressive support items that give these supports ways to protect their ADCs while still allowing them to play their carry support style.

Examples for this could be an item that speeds up nearby allies when a support lands cc, or something similar to knight's vow where a support's attacks steal an opponents resistances and grants them to their chosen partner. The goal here is to give marksmen some level of "obligatory peel", so they don't have to rely so heavily on others. Especially when those others Pyke are literally designed to leave the ADC in order to make a play. This should solve problem 3 as best we can. Then by making things like Maw and BT rushable, as mentioned by Meddler, marksmen will compete early and items like IE would give bonuses purely for tank shredding, so they don't melt everyone late.

With that we'd have hopefully solved all the problems and can make progress towards a more satisfactory marksmen experience.

28 Comments

Saevum12/22/2018, 5:09:06 PM17 votes

There is another problem for the adc in order to properly shine past 20 minutes.

If you observe recent Solo Q jungle champ pool list, you may notice a lack of actual tanks being picked. There are honorable mentions tho, but in essence, the junglers prefer not to pick tanks. Which indirectly slaps the bottom lane. Same goes for supports, they rather pick mages most of the times.

BestPudgeNA12/22/2018, 8:34:22 PM6 votes

Again this is true for other roles...

Take for example Xin Zhao

He is an early game pressure jungler who is extremely strong early and tries to win the game by getting his team ahead and then letting them carry. Having played Xin a bunch of games i can tell you that he has the same problem as Jinx does in the opposite direction. It doesn't matter how well you do you job in the early game if you team is filled with throw artists.

The actually problem is marksman players don't except their weakness for what they counter balancing to their strengths, they think Jinx being weak early and Draven having "scaling issues" mean they're weak champs, when in reality that's called balance. Whereas Xin players except their weak late game as counterbalance to their early strength and Kassadin players except their weak early game as part a counterbalance to their late game ect ect.

Śhunpo12/23/2018, 1:31:41 PM5 votes

Don't buff marksmen and supports, fix every other role, especially jungle. If bot lane wasn't barraged by 4-5 man ganks post level 5 then you'd be hearing a lot less complaining. Just saying.....

HàrrowR12/23/2018, 4:03:28 AM4 votes

You've made just one mistake in assuming that ALL adc players love the glass canon style, while i'd say its 100% not the case since most adc mains like me are always frustrated about being one shotted super easily, but i can only speak for myself.

When i started playing back in season 1 or 2 i cant remember, ADCS weren't anything like they are today, no one had this crazy level of mobility and one shot damage they do now and supports were less prevalent than they are now, you could play Ashe mid as a meta pick.

The fact that you didn't have champs like Zed back then or Yasuo coupled with the fact that you had a DODGE chance meant that ADCs like Sivir or Ashe were actually pretty safe and tough to kill.

Ashe could kite most champs, Sivir had a dodge chance and her spellshield,imagine trying to kill her while she's dodging attacks and denying your cc and lets not forget the champ that got me into ADCs in the first place, Graves, he had a damn 100 armor and MR on his E and he still had his QR burst.

You were stupid if you didn't buy Banshe's veil as an ADC and of course GA was still a standard item as it is today, the only remnant of ADCs not being tissue paper.

What happened down the line im not sure,riot wanted to push supports maybe so they nerfed ADCs self-sustainability or just a general damage and mobility creep fked them over,who knows,but for sure nobody asked for it to happen, i don't know if anyone really likes the idea on relying on a random person to protect you everygame especially now that you won't see a real support ever anymore, its all pyke and brand.

So if you ask me and i believe most other adc players, i'd gladly take your offer, give me better early and a stronger defense,i'll pay it gladly with my late game.

Ionian Vulpix12/23/2018, 2:04:04 PM2 votes

Issues I have as an ADC player:

  1. We pop like a damn bubble and can't afford to spec into any defensive options other than Lifesteal. But against champs like Brand or Pyke or Zyra, one spell early game could be half your health bar. And most ADCs don't have super high base MS so it's not that easy to just dodge everything.

  2. Crit items. Unless you're Jhin, crit items take way too long to come online. Going a crit item first is terrible because none of them give AD, hence why everyone goes for the free crit Stormrazor.

Personally, I'd rather have Enchanters be meta again so ADCs actually have a chance to live and play the game.

Power Cosmic12/22/2018, 8:47:15 PM2 votes

All the game ever needed instead of all this damage was to rebalance a handful or the riskier champs into late game carries. Marksmen are good at poking, objectives, and being safe. Their place in the game should reflect that.

Valeckserai12/23/2018, 9:58:41 PM2 votes

I just feel like there's a problem with "right click" the class in general, both with dissatisfying game play and with how the class functions as a whole. If what you specialize in is just right clicking something to death, that doesn't sound very satisfying to me. That doesn't lend itself to make me feel like someone can express their skill at game mechanics with them. They just kill stuff from range and that's it. Right click them, know how to play the game like ANY ranged squishy champ (kiting, rotating, farming ect) and you win. No skill expression, just stats in a bag and a mean right click. Sure, individual adc champs can have certain mechanics unique to them, but after a day of practice anyone could probably play them competently in whatever their elo is as a secondary role. MF lands 3 double ups on you. Woohoo, such skill, many rng, must back to base because holy shit that's a lot of damage. It's not fun to play against and I never got into playing it myself because I wasn't having fun, I was just right clicking shit and it died or I did. And as far as game play balance, I feel like they are just like ranged mages/assassins that don't have to worry about hitting their shit because their damage is in auto attacks and that shit is point click. You deal around the same damage overall, but you automatically land everything. That means that other champ classes who can actually miss their shit need it to do more than the adc autos since if they miss they will probably lose, because a huge part of their damage/utility was just removed from the fight. But, this makes it so adc's numbers are what decides the fight most often. If their numbers are high (either through items or champ stats, it doesn't matter) then adcs are a nightmare class that bursts squishies, shreds tanks, takes objectives, and turns all other classes into their bitches, because they CAN'T fail and their damage is insane. If their numbers are low, then they just don't do enough, and they become irrelevant compared to other classes that can just free farm them. Why pick Jinx when you could do the same damage, but better with Swain bot, while also healing, and having better cc, and teamfight like a god and so on?

TLDR; I just don't like adcs at all. Their auto based kits make it too easy to ALWAYS get their damage off consistently, which make it so if their numbers are strong, they are way too strong and overshadow the whole game. If their numbers are weak they do nothing compared to other classes that do around the same damage, since other classes have more put into their kits/abilities to compensate for the fact that unlike adcs, they can actually fuck it up and miss. Combine that with their "skill expression" coming from praying that their sup isn't a degenerate playing on their 10 year old smart phone with bad internet connection and all they do is right click on something until it dies, I just can't find them and their play style ever "satisfying."

The thigh guy12/24/2018, 2:32:09 AM2 votes

The issue atm is the adc late game isn’t worth it anymore. At 5 minutes talon does more in a teamfight than jinx, and 55 minutes he does more than a jinx in teamfight.

Lategame isn’t worth putting investment in because you will not get the rewards you should.

forresto12/22/2018, 10:17:47 PM1 votes

My perception is that the problem isnt necessarily marksmen themselves, but tanks being weak. Right now tanks can only tank properly in the mid-game if the enemy is weak. If the enemy is breaking even or fed, the frontline tends to melt fairly quickly. As a result no one really plays tanks these days, and you get 0-1 pure tanks per game for most games. This leaves the field fairly open for assassins to do their thing thanks to a lack of defensive cc. Marksmen also feel underwhelming in this scenario because their job is to do consistent damage against tanks. Instead, they have to fight damage-heavy bruisers, burst-mages, or assassins. When its between "you 100-0 me, and I take several seconds to kill you" you know who's going to win that trade.

Adcs are also notorious for lacking real escape mechanisms. I think vayne and Caitlyn are the only ones with strong mobility. Ik some like mf or twitch can get movespeed buffs, but it's really not the same when you're trying to escape.

ChaddyFantome12/24/2018, 1:46:14 AM1 votes

simple problem here is that marksmen's damage comes from undodgeable ranged resourcless projectiles, which gives them an inherent advantage over everyone else in the game that is only compensated by the fact that they are so dependant and take time to scale.

the level at which you would need to nerf their damage to justify substantial defensive capability is MUCh more than u seem to think, especially since it would also effectively gut assassins and burst mages wholesale.

The class is just fundamentally flawed because there is no real "fail case" since all their damage and win conditions are guaranteed so long as they remain alive, leading them to win all wars of attrition.

The only think i can think of doing would be to massively increase their range while lowering their damage. and when i say massively i mean MASSIVELY.

PaffWasTaken12/23/2018, 4:00:29 AM1 votes

buff Jinx's defensive itemization while nerfing her damage, so she can survive early even when she's weak. That would ruin her and the class though because marksmen only play this role for its ranged glass-cannon gameplay and that would take that away.

Nerfing damage to privilege survivability is BY FAR the solution to take. The whole "marksmens aren't glass-cannons anymore" situation is actually caused more by external elements or other champion classes instead of being tied solely to marksmens themselves. For example, if we REALLY nerfed ADC damage and buffed their survivability, of course they would feel far from being glass canons tuned for damage, since unchanged Assassins, who presently deal either more or equal damage when compaired to current marksmens, would overshadow their role. The same goes for almost every other classes today too: if we nerf marksmen damage without touching any other classes, all those other classes would become better carries since soooooo much damage has been forced into the game.

BUT, if we both nerf marksmen damage AND any other source of damage who are currently overwhelming, this would put everyone on an even ground while marksmen players could enjoy their glass canon class since, even if they would deal less damage than before, their damage output could still be comparable since other classes would ALSO deal less damage, giving the needed survivability to marksmens while avoiding the chaos that was late S7 with marksmens outdamaging every single other classes at any point in game.

Still, this dosen't fix the fact that marksmens are still underwhelming early game while being disgustingly broken in late. In my opinion, this problem is mainly caused by the power-spike heavy aspect of marksmens in general over the years. I believe that marksmens getting an huge powerspike in late game because of their item synergies is far from being an healthy aspect of the game, as well as the early powerspikes meta fiascos caused by Zeal items and item 3095 whenever they are overtuned. A slow but steady scaling without major bumps would feel much more satisfying and healthy: marksmens and late scaling classes/champs should scale steadily and slower but should never really "stop", carrying them into late game while not being overtuned or too weak to scale early on. Assassins and early scaling champs with "snowballer" tattooed on their forehead should be allowed to do so, but they have to be slowing down at some point and give the chance to the game to actually last, instead of never really having a snowballing roof, ending in a never ending stomp of late game champs who can't even fight back.