Varus: thunderlords vs Lux: thunderlords

Jeremiah H·Jan 2, 2017·149 votes·80,941 views

Exhibit A: Lux hits an opponent with a spell. Her passive is marked on them and then she autos them, setting off her passive and then thunderlords.

In the sequence the opponent has been damaged by Q/E, an auto, (P), and then finally thunderlords.

Exhibit B: Varus autos an opponents. His W passive is marked on them and then he uses a spell, setting off his W passive. Thunderlords does not happen

In this sequence, the opponent has been damaged by an auto, a Q/E, W passive, but not thunderlords.

Why not?

216 Comments

Aatrox Mid 1v5Jan 2, 2017127 votes

http://giphy.com/gifs/justin-bieber-food-yummy-dZRlFW1sbFEpG

ßurstJan 2, 201713 votes

LOL

Death and DoomJan 2, 201736 votes

name checks out

THEATOMBOMB035Jan 2, 20173 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_rxVipBG94

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

RiotNot SurrenderingJan 2, 201770 votes

When thunder lords first came out, didn't have the tech to do it. I believe we have the tech to do it soon.

The reason this occurs is that we have no way to determine spell origin. For example, on the second tick of Morgana w, thunder lords has no way of knowing if that instance of damage was from W, q, auto, r etc. As such, it has no choice but to treat it as a separate instance of damage.

This would mean that once the tech is out, any instance of damage from a spell will only refresh the thunder lords stack and not add one (morg w, mf e, etc.). Multiple cast spells will count as a separate cast for thunder lords, Eg. Ahri R. Effects that state "your attacks/spells apply X" will count as one spell including the auto attack (Eg. Teemo E). Recasts count as one (Eg. Anivia q, sejuani w). I believe aurelion passive will count as one for the game duration.

For the varus example, I'm not sure what's going on there, probably mum's linguine.

Edit: oh right, varus w is of type proc, whereas lux passive is of type spell.

Photos of GhostsJan 2, 201710 votes

Aurelion will count as one for the game duration? That's absurd... Why would you take away his possibility to use it?

RiotNot SurrenderingJan 2, 201711 votes

Each orb traces back to the spell origin (each orb is one instance of a spell). I think only way we could do it is if each orb was individually distinguishable (say a different colour or size), then we could make them 3 different spells.

LankPantsJan 2, 20176 votes

Wouldn't this be a case where you'd hard code an exception? That seems like the best way of dealing with this to me. It makes sense from a players perspective too because Sol's orbs aren't really a projectile in players eyes even if they behave as such.

RiotNot SurrenderingJan 2, 20179 votes

Hmm, don't think so. The only reason for it would be because it worked that way previously. (eg. Wouldn't expect Karthus, Anivia R, Rammus R, etc.) in the new model to work that way either.

LankPantsJan 2, 20173 votes

What about if you toggled Karthus's AOE off and back on. I'd say that's a case where Thunderlord's should reapply. If it doesn't then multiple Qs shouldn't apply Thunderlords stacks.

The reason why I'd argue A-Sol reapplying Thunderlord's is more OK than other champs with somewhat similar spells though is that each instance feels like it's a dodgable spell. It's not like the AOE is particularly wide, you can sidestep out of it even when slowed. It just feels fair for something like that to actually be an exception, while something like Anivia's ult just ends up being 'applies TL's if you don't have a dash'.

GarlicFriesJan 2, 201741 votes

Karthus, Anivia R, Rammus R, etc.

I'll be honest with you, Sol's passive seems a LOT more like individual spells than any of these.

QuinntimidatingJan 2, 201712 votes

Okay, I kind of see where you are coming from. But his passive still isn't the same as those abilities. This is like the entire way he is supposed to do damage. You would basically be saying TLD's shouldn't ever be taken on him, since a lot of times you don't even go into auto range. That seems unfair, when his passive is fundamentally a different type of spell than the ones you listed.

And how would this work with Azir? Each soldier only procs it once? But auto's will proc on each auto, and soldiers auto.

Penta PenguinJan 2, 20174 votes

are you drunk

"Aurelion orb can only add a thunderlord stack once per game" sounds fundamentally broken... how is this okay at all?

LordGeovanniJan 3, 20172 votes

not once per game one tick in any instance of useing tld even if multiple balls hit is how i understood that

Ice Weasel XJan 3, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Giggle Physics,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XhPEjuQM,comment-id=001600000000000000000004,timestamp=2017-01-02T23:06:07.820+0000)

are you drunk

"Aurelion orb can only add a thunderlord stack once per game" sounds fundamentally broken... how is this okay at all?

I don't think that's what he's saying at all. What he means is that every damage source is individually identified as a potential stack. An individual source can repeatedly refresh its own stack, but not stack upon itself.

[{quoted}](name=Fizz Enthusiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XhPEjuQM,comment-id=0016,timestamp=2017-01-02T09:10:55.900+0000)

This would mean that once the tech is out, any instance of damage from a spell will only refresh the thunder lords stack and not add one (morg w, mf e, etc.). Multiple cast spells will count as a separate cast for thunder lords, Eg. Ahri R. Effects that state "your attacks/spells apply X" will count as one spell including the auto attack (Eg. Teemo E). Recasts count as one (Eg. Anivia q, sejuani w). I believe aurelion passive will count as one for the game duration.

Here's the stack breakdown:

Center of the Universe (P) - All orbs are a single entity lasting throughout the entire game
- If no P stack exists upon impact, add P stack.
- If P stack exists upon impact, refresh P stack.
Autoattack (A) - each Autoattack is independent
- Add A stack upon impact.
Starsurge (Q) - each Starsurge is independent
- Add Q stack upon impact.
Voice of Light (R) - each Voice of Light is independent
- Add R stack upon impact.
If 3 stacks exist, trigger Thunderlord's Decree.

With this structure, Center of the Universe could never trigger Thunderlord's Decree on its own, but would still be able to contribute to the necessary stacks at any time throughout the game.

And for his followup comment:

[{quoted}](name=Fizz Enthusiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XhPEjuQM,comment-id=001600000000,timestamp=2017-01-02T09:35:54.937+0000)

Each orb traces back to the spell origin (each orb is one instance of a spell). I think only way we could do it is if each orb was individually distinguishable (say a different colour or size), then we could make them 3 different spells.

I read this as:

Center of the Universe - Orb 1 (P1) - individual damage source lasting throughout the entire game
- If no P1 stack exists upon impact, add P1 stack.
- If P1 stack exists upon impact, refresh P1 stack.
Center of the Universe - Orb 2 (P2) - individual damage source lasting throughout the entire game
- If no P2 stack exists upon impact, add P2 stack.
- If P2 stack exists upon impact, refresh P2 stack.
Center of the Universe - Orb 3 (P3) - individual damage source lasting throughout the entire game
- If no P3 stack exists upon impact, add P3 stack.
- If P3 stack exists upon impact, refresh P3 stack.
Autoattack (A) - each Autoattack is independent
- Add A stack upon impact.
Starsurge (Q) - each Starsurge is independent
- Add Q stack upon impact.
Voice of Light (R) - each Voice of Light is independent
- Add R stack upon impact.
If 3 stacks exist, trigger Thunderlord's Decree.

With this structure, Center of the Universe could still trigger Thunderlord's Decree completely on its own.

TequilaZombieJan 2, 20177 votes

Would they actually need to be visually distinguishable? They could look all the same and just be coded as different spells. If, for some reason, you can't have 3 spells with the exact same code, just make it so one Orb deals 1 bonus true damage, the other 1 bonus magic damage, and the last 1 bonus physical damage (Or any other insignificant change you can think of).

RiotNot SurrenderingJan 2, 20178 votes

I believe so. Knowing when you're going to be thunderlorded (both for ASol and opponent is pretty important).

TequilaZombieJan 2, 20176 votes

That's a fair point. Basicly, the gist of it would be that you'd have to hit different orbs for it to proc? Hitting someone with Orb A, Orb B, and then Orb C would proc it. But hitting someone with Orb A, Orb B, disengaging and re-engaging and landing Orb A again wouldn't proc it?

RiotNot SurrenderingJan 2, 20177 votes

Yeah, something like that.

JunkοJan 2, 20176 votes

Why not just code an exception where Aurelion Sol and some other champs ignores the rule? I really don't understand what is the point. Yeah sure Heimer W or Morg W shouldn't proc it instantly, but you don't have to gut the keystone for a lot of champions to fix this. Just put a small time interval where the spell can't proc it again or something. I'm no pro when it comes to coding, but this seems relatively simple, hell you did it already with Teemo!

TerraRisingJan 2, 201719 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fizz Enthusiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XhPEjuQM,comment-id=0016,timestamp=2017-01-02T09:10:55.900+0000)

For the virus example, I'm not sure what's going on there, probably mum's linguine.

Edit: oh right, virus w is of type proc, whereas lux passive is of type spell.

I've not seen "Varus" called "Virus" before. Must be an inside joke at Riot...

RiotNot SurrenderingJan 2, 201739 votes

LOL woops auto correct

LankPantsJan 2, 20176 votes

Edit: oh right, virus w is of type proc, whereas lux passive is of type spell.

This makes no sense to me at all. There's 0 clarity.

Udyr's Q and R apply two procs on the AA, Sona's Q aura, passive and AA damage somehow count as one though and if Nami Es herself she gets 2 procs from an AA? It just seems arbitrary.

RiotNot SurrenderingJan 2, 201713 votes

Yeah it is very arbitrary, which is why the tech will be valuable and make it consistent across the board.

ModJango MageJan 2, 20172 votes

I dont think that this aurelion sol change would be that bad since he is better with death fire touch in my ompinion.

DarkRitualJan 2, 20173 votes

That's a bad reason to do anything though. They're bad with it, so it's fine to not work well.

Chromatic EagleJan 2, 20172 votes

Any other arbitrary/inconsistent mechanics you believe that new tech could realistically fix?

I am RazgrizJan 3, 20172 votes

When this tech is made live, heck, PBE as well, please inform us. I want to test stuff.

RocketRelmJan 2, 20176 votes

This would mean that once the tech is out, any instance of damage from a spell will only refresh the thunder lords stack and not add one (morg w, mf e, etc.).

Regarding this, this is actually a pretty major nerf to several champions that dominantly use Thunderlords and are balanced with that in mind, and cannot easily proc it otherwise. Using Morgana as the example (though she's not the only one), this would kneecap her ability to harass without landing her snare entirely.

Would there be any potential for compensation buffs to champions that are most affected by this change?

DarkRitualJan 2, 20174 votes

I'm straight up switching to dft or something, unless she gets a decent buff. TLD will he terrible on her after the change.

RocketRelmJan 2, 20172 votes

Sadly TLD may still be the best option for Morgana, even with this blatant nerf. She rarely gets enough raw AP to make Deathfire worth it (also trash during lane), and she really hates tier 5 of resolve too much to go for CoC.

DarkRitualJan 2, 20172 votes

I think for midlane Morgana dft would be 2000% better after the change for sure. As support, I still build a moderate amount of AP (one or two items after FQC), so it could go either way, based on playstyle. I like to harass and with W, so dft would likely be a little preferable.

RocketRelmJan 2, 20172 votes

The problem I see is that you need about 300 AP for Deathfire to begin pulling its weight on Morgana, meaning 4ish items in. For me that's too long to wait for a benefit that I can't even then definitively call better than TLD. A 100 AP death fire is going to tick over 5 seconds for not even 40 damage. I like harassing with W too, I just see DT as nearly worthless during lane, and only really cashing out at a full 6 item Morgana build complete with Deathcap, and I often find myself teching into at least one non-AP item for defense. With TLD, I could at least auto + W+Frost for a proc.

I mean, if you're in combat so much that the Deathfire ticks can give you profit where the TLD will never be poppable, that can work. I just personally feel like Deathfire is too small a benefit to invest my way to it. TBH if Thunderlords becomes that unusable, I'd probably look into Stormraider Surge for the stick potential when using my ult first.

That's play style differences though.

ChaddyFantomeJan 7, 20172 votes

{quoted}

The problem I see is that you need about 300 AP for Deathfire to begin pulling its weight on Morgana, meaning 4ish items in. For me that's too long to wait for a benefit that I can't even then definitively call better than TLD. A 100 AP death fire is going to tick over 5 seconds for not even 40 damage. I like harassing with W too, I just see DT as nearly worthless during lane, and only really cashing out at a full 6 item Morgana build complete with Deathcap, and I often find myself teching into at least one non-AP item for defense. With TLD, I could at least auto + W+Frost for a proc.

I mean, if you're in combat so much that the Deathfire ticks can give you profit where the TLD will never be poppable, that can work. I just personally feel like Deathfire is too small a benefit to invest my way to it. TBH if Thunderlords becomes that unusable, I'd probably look into Stormraider Surge for the stick potential when using my ult first.

That's play style differences though.

The problem with your way of looking at it is you are falling into the instant gratification trap.

Yes in one rotation in lane, Tlords is giving you more damage... in that instance, but unlike Tlords where once you pop it, it goes on CD and you aren't doing anythign with it until you pop it again, FeathFire is far more consistent.

Every spell you get off on a target or even multiple targets procs it.

over the course of laning phase, you are actually quite likely doing the same or even more damage with DeathFire, especially in a Duo lane if you have AoE.

Whats more, Tlords falls off after lane phase on, especially on Supports that don't build tons of damage and build more utility.

Morganna is a notable case in this one too since she pretty much is locked into getting item 3157 .

Im not trying to convince you to switch to DeathFire, but I d think you are sleeping on the mastery here and being a bit shortsighted in that regard.

CC MonsterJan 2, 20178 votes

As someone who likes Ahri a lot (on another server) this change worries me. Does that mean she won't be able to proc TLD anymore with both Q hits and an AA? It's an important part of her trades in lane.

Will the possibility of pulling this off get removed because you rely on two instances of damage from Q? Or will it stay because both instances of Q's damage are different kinds of damage (magic, then true)?

Blaze Wolf891Jan 2, 20175 votes

This one is most Ahri mains concern. Easiest proc is both parts of Q and auto attack. Technically the 2 parts of Q are two different parts. Magic and True.. So it should still count as 2 spells.. but don't know how they will do this.. Ahri

RecktozJan 2, 20172 votes

Recasts count as one (Eg. Anivia q, sejuani w).

Anivia Q already just counts as one, even if you hit the recast. Q > Q > E Does not proc Thunderlord's.

I believe aurelion passive will count as one for the game duration.

What does this mean? Please be more specific. Will he only be able to proc is once during the course of the game with his passive, or will he only be able to use one of his passive spheres to proc it?

ChlululuJan 5, 20172 votes

q q e does, in fact proc tl on anivia good sir

RiotAD YuumiJan 2, 20176 votes

Can confirm. There was no tech. Stashu, Squad5, and I were very sad ;(

ChaddyFantomeJan 2, 20179 votes

Lulu with thunderlords

Lulu E's and then auto attacks the tartget.

in this sequence, she hits someone with the damage of her E, then auto attacks them, hitting them with her Passive pix bolt as well as her actual auto attack.

Thunderlords is not proc'd.

Why?

DrCyanideJan 2, 20179 votes

You want consistency? What blasphemy is this!

I wonder if Varus's stacks being part of an ability rather than an actual passive is the difference.

EndlessSorcererJan 2, 201730 votes

The difference is probably that Lux's passive is applied by her abilities while Varus' passive is applied by his autoattacks.

If it is applied by a spell, it is a spell effect (which counts towards TLD). If it is applied by an autoattack, it is an on-hit effect (which doesn't count towards TLD).

AFAIK, this is the reasoning as to why Twitch's and Darius' passives don't apply spell effects but Brand's does.

DrCyanideJan 2, 20176 votes

The Blight detonation surely isn't treated like an on-hit, right? I totally get why he doesn't get two stacks of TLD on the first auto, but a spell triggering the damage passive of another spell would count as a spell effect, right?

Jeremiah HJan 2, 20176 votes

That doesn't matter. Thunderlords does not say "spell damage." it says damage. 3 autos will do it. So your reasoning doesn't apply

EndlessSorcererJan 2, 201718 votes

{quoted}

That doesn't matter. Thunderlords does not say "spell damage." it says damage. 3 autos will do it. So your reasoning doesn't apply

TLD will be triggered upon hitting three autoattacks and/or abilities on the target; damage alone will not work.

If three instances of damage were sufficient, then Darius or Twitch would be able to trigger Thunderlord's Decree with a single autoattack due to their passives.

Also, the description for TLD states "Your 3rd attack or damaging spell". You were even wrong on that part of the attempted correction.

SteelflameJan 2, 20172 votes

MF E or R says hi.

EndlessSorcererJan 2, 20178 votes

Miss Fortune's E (and Swain's Q and Morgana's W) will have each instance of damage count as a separate spell hitting you.

This is because they are ground-targeted effects which will hit you with an application of the spell for each tick while you are within it.

DoT spells which are applied to a champion (i.e. Swain's E, Malzahar's E) only count as a single application for the purposes of Thunderlord's Decree.