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I don't think Yuumi needs to be knocked off on a displacement

ModUlanopo·11/17/2019, 4:00:36 PM·1 votes·9,125 views
Yuumi Stats, Pro Builds, Guides, Runes, Masteries, Counter, Matchups - Blitz LoL

Okay, since the other thread degenerated into talking about moderation on Gameplay and some pretty nasty insults, I'd like to open up the discussion in a new thread. I'd also like to make this a challenge to the Gameplay board, so if you can change my mind on this topic, I'll pin the response and make a public apology.

#Here are the rules:

  • If you don't think I can be open-minded, please don't bother responding. You'll just junk up the thread.
  • Stay on topic: Should the circumstances under which Yuumi is involuntarily detached be expanded and, if so, why?
  • Your rebuttal has to at least start as a direct response to this thread, otherwise I can't pin it. You can clarify and extend in the discussion that descends from that response, though.
  • I've turned off voting. Your response has to stand on its own.

#My argument:

  • Being attached to an ally is a core aspect of Yuumi's theme intended to appeal to the specific fantasy of being a wizard's familiar.
  • Being attached is an excellent way to express the theme, but can be tricky to balance because untargetability is problematic under many circumstances.
  • Much as I think it would be healthier for her to have a modal play style somewhat similar to Jayce, Yuumi is intended to be fairly simple and straightforward. Also, having to decide to be detached damages the theme.
  • Yuumi is currently not in a great place (see link). I think part of that is that she's one of those champions that can feel oppressive when run by a skilled player in a premade that knows how to take advantage of her strong points. I also feel she's worthy of a medium-sized rebalance based on those numbers.
  • Her picks and bans at Worlds are worthy of discussion. It looks to me like she was a niche pick and that teams threw a ban at her simply not to have to put up with the off-meta play. She certainly wasn't in the top 20 at Worlds and her performance there was weak.
  • Having displacements detach her is a straight nerf. The request to have displacements detach her feels more like a generic gripe about untargetability than a specific complaint about facing her.
  • Yuumi could benefit from some graphic changes that make it more clear where she is. I know that in the chaos of a big team fight, I often lose her.

That's it. Good luck!

76 Comments

ModBianca Colt11/17/2019, 4:16:06 PM1 votes

I just feel like they would have to introduce some rather serious buffs to her kit in order to compensate, should they decide to actually make her W more _inconsistent _ and susceptible to crowd control. In the end, she would just end up being even more annoying to play against, especially against teams with no access to the tools (displacements) required to knock her off a target.

######I guess 🥴

Saezio11/17/2019, 4:16:55 PM1 votes

You are wrong because

  1. Pro play shows how busted yuumi can be

  2. In most soloq games she isn't even played with a juggernaut bot but with an ADC. Which is moronic

  3. There is currently NO WAY to remove yuumi from her host, and there is NO reason for her to detach in the late game, which is problematic, since it means she is basically viable without her passive late.

P.S. I think disabling voting is super insecure. Why don't you let people express their agreement/disagreement with a single button? Now we will be filled with comments like "+1" or "I agree". Seems much more elegant to have the +/- score

TwitchInMyPants11/17/2019, 4:32:14 PM1 votes

It'd be nice if any of the arguments from previous threads could be preserved instead of being hid away from everyone.

I will say Yuumi's design being based around untargetability is a difficult concept to balance. ATM she's a niche pick after receiving many nerfs, and I feel she might be in a state similar to older concepts like Azir and Kalista where Riot won't be able to buff her without major issues. Personally she's not on level with these champions, Yuumi is more usable for sure. But giving her more heals means she's like a Soraka who doesn't risk dying. Giving her more damage means she can poke without being traded against.

One of the best suggestions from the last thread is giving her more things to do while detached from her target, which is her vulnerable position. Her Q is straight up inferior when detached and her W bonus does nothing, should that really be the case? If she had available on-hit damage like Janna and her Q gets a damage boost or something it'd actually encourage Yuumi to do more than effectively be an item on another character.

I don't like the idea of knocking her off a target unless its a specific circumstance. Maybe some really rare cc like Grounded or Suppression could be justified to knock her off so she has specific counters. If they go that route, I think she'll need buffs to compensate since there's existing cc that'd hard counter her. But one of the biggest complaints about her I hear is that she's a Soraka that you can't focus, which often turns out to be true. Her healing is very good, not Soraka level but its higher than Nami, Sona, Janna, pretty much everyone but Soraka so the comparison is reasonable.

Making the champion more interactive in a rework whether its rewarding her for hopping off her target or making conditions to knock her off would justify buffing her to be more viable in Solo Q so she doesn't have to be a niche pick that requires full team coordination. That and it'd likely increase her pro play presence since they're already good at her and as long as a strong counter isn't in the game they'd be able to take advantage of the new strength that could be justified.

Daddy Ants11/17/2019, 7:21:50 PM1 votes

Make her take 50% of the damage her host does.

That way she has to detach and actually heal herself or she dies slowly.

Worst JG Wins11/17/2019, 8:32:27 PM1 votes

{quoted}

  • Being attached to an ally is a core aspect of Yuumi's theme intended to appeal to the specific fantasy of being a wizard's familiar.
  • Being attached is an excellent way to express the theme, but can be tricky to balance because untargetability is problematic under many circumstances.
  • Much as I think it would be healthier for her to have a modal play style somewhat similar to Jayce, Yuumi is intended to be fairly simple and straightforward. Also, having to decide to be detached damages the theme.
  • Yuumi is currently not in a great place (see link). I think part of that is that she's one of those champions that can feel oppressive when run by a skilled player in a premade that knows how to take advantage of her strong points. I also feel she's worthy of a medium-sized rebalance based on those numbers.
  • Her picks and bans at Worlds are worthy of discussion. It looks to me like she was a niche pick and that teams threw a ban at her simply not to have to put up with the off-meta play. She certainly wasn't in the top 20 at Worlds and her performance there was weak.
  • Having displacements detach her is a straight nerf. The request to have displacements detach her feels more like a generic gripe about untargetability than a specific complaint about facing her.
  • Yuumi could benefit from some graphic changes that make it more clear where she is. I know that in the chaos of a big team fight, I often lose her.

None of these are arguments they're opinions.

1 - Untargetability is a toxic and overpowered mechanic. If it's going to exist in the game it needs to be limited see Kayn/Zed R buttons Nearly unlimited untargetability isn't interesting it's an awful game mechanic, which is why even without being a true power pick in pro play and having a low win/pick/ban rates in solo Q Yuumi can still be almost universally reviled.

2- I believe the primary reason she has a low win rate is because people refuse to play her optimally in solo Q. Due to her untargetability she can be attached to a Tanky juggernaut which effectively makes her relatively unkillable while at the same time taking away the typically weaknesses of those juggernauts, her power comes from synergy not solely from herself. However in solo Q people will often pair her with a squishy marksman or she will attach to a diver in team fights, in the later cases she is very killable. Players using poor strategy doesn't make a champ weak. Solo Q winrates are pretty meaningless for this reason.

3a -I do not care about what arbitrary numbers you think justify the near complete removal of counterplay. 3b -I don't care about your "Wizard familiar" fantasy, LOL is a multiplayer PVP MOBA not a casual RPG. Theme should take a backseat to enjoyable and balanced gameplay. Not the other way around.

4- Yuumi doesn't need nerfs per se, she needs counterplay.

5- Riot should stop putting toxic mechanics in the game and trying to "balance" those toxic mechanics around some arbitrary win percentage

I've turned off voting. Your response has to stand on its own.

Your OP doesn't which is why you turned off votes.

Kai Guy11/17/2019, 9:20:40 PM1 votes

I have no intention to change your mind as I feel your correct. The idea of splashing damage and displacements? Strongly negative for the kit, just massive Net nerfs that require compensation. About as productive as OMG GUT THIS BS CHAMP and WTF DELEAT THIS POS OP WTF BBQ style posts. Damaging a champions ability to function on any level when being portrayed as a "fair" nerf is such blatant bias players should be honest that they are asking for their removal.

There are better alternatives.

I'd look into CD manipulation on her attachment personally. Add a Lock out when you attach before you can hop off or swap targets and/or Add a Lock out if you host Dies with you still attached, giving players a better window for killing her mid teamfight rather then having to hard ACE a team.

You could also have hard CC put her W onto CD for making her "go down with the ship" more often as well.

An alternative nerf is to make her Attach into a skillshot. This mostly just hurts teamfights and bad players, and would inevitably dumpster her play in standard MMR ranges requiring a buff just to keep a playerbase for the champion.

More complex adjustments like having modifications to her kit biased on if her Sheild is up or not can be made but upping her floor and ceiling are things I fear would only serve as buffs in higher MMR and Proplay.

5050BS11/17/2019, 10:59:30 PM1 votes

I love how you literally titled this the OPPOSITE of what the original two threads said.

Yuumi NEEDS more interaction that ether makes her want to get off her target on a 5-8s CD OR she needs to be able to be knocked off her target,

Hot LeBlanc Yuri11/17/2019, 11:28:43 PM1 votes

Why can i not downvote, what the fuck is this abuse.

NaughtyWord11/17/2019, 11:37:07 PM1 votes

I think her attachment should work like Kayn.

I play Morgana in midlane a lot, and if I ult, and Kayn hops in me, it will stun him after the 3 seconds. With Yuumi, she should be subject to AoEs. AoEs don't "target" and just effect every target in a given area, Yuumi should not be excluded if she is in the target area.

General Esdeath 11/18/2019, 4:19:30 AM1 votes

Please delete this post, as it doesn't belong in gameplay uwu

Also she needs counterplay that's not "kill the ADC"

Killing isn't counterplay, otherwise we can't say anything needs a nerf.

Diopsideˆ11/18/2019, 7:10:33 AM1 votes

Unpopular opinion, this champ should not even exist, with such dumb kit.

Ulkusus11/18/2019, 8:27:16 AM1 votes

In my opinion, yuumi should have never been released.

Reasons:

If yuumi is weak:

  • she won't be picked and might as well not exist.

If any part of yuumi is strong:

  • She crowds out similar style enchanters due to being untargetable, insepparable and parasitising the strengths of the champ she sits on (mobility, tankiness, invisibility(!) ).

Additionally: If stronger heals are traded for damage:

  • Place her on a carry or high resistances champion to massively increase their survivability with no counterplay not already present against that champ.

If stronger damage is traded for less healing:

  • Place her onto a naturally tanky champion like a juggernaut and enjoy the slow/zoning/poke she provides while being completely safe, giving a tank a book-mounted cannon, again without any way to counter it that is not already present against that champ.

If her stat sharing is amplified and her own base numbers nerfed:

  • Enjoy seeing Kassadin etc. pop off even earlier and even harder, while getting healed wherever he goes and having even less chance of running away from him.

I actually don't know how I would even fix her. A support that is not punished for going full on damage/utility glass cannon (also being able to use active items and summoners while staying attached) and that has no trouble keeping up with mobile champs seems unbalancable to me.

RegardsKitty11/18/2019, 11:34:10 AM1 votes

Hoo boy, here we go.

Your "arguments" are pretty much just opinions and "look at that winrate it's bad". Let's take a look at the actual few arguments in here.

First off, a champion shouldn't be balanced around its theme. Look at Aatrox, he had a revive since his release, it was part of his identity, and it was removed for balance reasons. Saying that Yuumi shouldn't have ways of getting detached because "It hurts her theme" is not a valid argument.

Secondly, the reason people want to be able to detach her is because she pretty much is just an invincible pocket Sona. Sure, people complain about untargetabilities, but in the case of Yuumi she just sits on someone like Garen and there is nothing you can do about it, unlike Sona who you could just kill. "Just kill the person she's on" is not a viable method of counterplay and right now that is pretty much the only way to counter her.

Pro-play and soloqueue aren't comparable. I thought people knew this but apparently it's not obvious.

Since we're on the topic of opinions, let me state my opinions.

Okay, since the other thread degenerated into talking about moderation on Gameplay and some pretty nasty insults, I'd like to open up the discussion in a new thread.

And why did that happen? Maybe because someone deleted a post on Gameplay that was about Yuumi. And why was it deleted? Because apparently it wasn't "constructive enough" for the board.

If that's the case, why is there a post related to Ivern, that pretty much goes "Ivern is fun, you should play him" in Gameplay and that post hasn't been deleted yet, since it has less content than the deleted Yuumi post? In my opinion the Ivern post should get the axe if you are playing by these rules.

Also, I took a glance at your match history, and you seem to pretty much play nothing but aram and the occasional normals. In my opinion, if you don't play the actual game, then you shouldn't be debating about a feature in the game.

So in the end, you deleted the Yuumi post because you are biased and made this so that you could "win" the argument. The mods on this forum seem to just play by their own rules and delete posts that they don't agree on, but considering that Riot is owned by China where freedom of speech doesn't exist, i'm not surprised.

General scnitzel11/18/2019, 2:21:57 PM1 votes

Dear Ulanopo,

My opinion on the matter of thematic is that if Yuumi is intended to be a "sorcerers familiar" there would need to be a stronger emphasis on the link.

I think a good comparison can be made between Yuumi and ChoGal from HOTS, where the interaction is creating a champion with a shared health pool, yet the "familiar" has an immunity to CC. This means there is an independence between two in terms of agency, while still making it clear that they rely on one another.

At the moment an amount of AP is given adaptive to whoever Yuumi attaches to, perhaps having her pre-mitigate damage from the "sorcerer" and instead receiving a percentage to her health would be a concept (similar to knights vow) that could lead to it feeling less unfair.

Alternatively, if just giving base stats can be risky, then perhaps a more interactive tool (akin to the ChoGal ball) where the "Familiar" might place "magical pages" or whichever canonical buff she could place for them, on the ground that they can pick up, giving one of 3 random buffs, Movement speed, Adaptive damage, or resistance for instance. these could in turn be destroyed by enemies through stepping on them. In order to ensure the Yuumi doesn't simply place it at the foot of the champion there should be a minimum cast range similar to Xerath (If I recall correctly!).

lastly, I personally feel that there is little commitment when Yuumi links to someone. some balance around her being forced, through cooldowns, or short term decreases in power when first linking might help to plan out if you where to focus down the pair. At the moment it feels very cheap when you finally kill the "sorcerer" and she simply leaps to another target without any need to prepare.

I think the root of peoples concern is that they have little control over how to interact with her, so placing "challenges" that makes her more tangible would really push her to becoming a "symbiotic creature" over a "parasite"

Let me know if any of the above sounds reasonable.

BR, Gen Schnitzel

Call Me Nana11/18/2019, 5:04:59 PM1 votes

I'd like to propose a change in which there are periods of her being attached that make her vulnerable to damage, it's pretty silly that I have to burst down the attached target just to get a pick at her, when she has a lot of tools to get her partner to safety, she can even successfully defend off full team assaults. there are even times where her target dies and she simply W's to a new ally.

There could be a minor change that says "once every x seconds, yuumi looses her focus on something shiny and becomes vulnerable"

They made a number of changes which promoted her afk style a couple patches ago.

Done2511/18/2019, 5:52:00 PM1 votes

Anyone who argues for Yuumi to get "knocked off" is looking at this the wrong way.

The problem is really "Yuumi never leaves her ally, therefore I have no chance to interact with her."

I don't know the current status of her pending changes, but from what I've seen so far Riot is going about this wrong. She needs more power in her passive. Not less. Return the mana restore, lower her passive's CD, and make her do bonus damage when proccing it.

Without her passive Yuumi has zero reason to ever leave her ally. So Riot needs to give her that reason, and it needs to be a good one. Something like:

Yuumi's next attack against an enemy champion deals 50250(+100% AP) and gives her a shield for 40200(+80%) that lasts until destroyed. (12~4 second CD)

If it's not at least this much Yuumi will simply never take the risk of hopping off and being one shot by AoE.

A longer range on her jump might also encourage her to wander further away, and thus risk being caught out by hard CC.

5050BS11/27/2019, 12:50:53 AM1 votes

We still need more ways to knock Yuumi off her target