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I can no longer stay silent during this upcoming Assassin rework

I am Razgriz·10/10/2016, 10:51:53 PM·2 votes·975 views

I am watching ridiculous comments spouted and Riot listening to this and going, "Yeah uh-huh. We hear you, we'll probably fix that." Ignoring certain facets of the game. It's getting ridiculous.

Topics: Ranged vs Melee, Leblanc and Talon (Not the match up, but a comparison), and Maw of Malmortius.

The ranged vs melee lane match-up is ridiculous and always has been. I am sad to see it's gone on like this for so long. That a Ranged champion can just auto you for free and get no backlash. Minions make an attempt to respond but all the ranged champion has to do is pull back a tad and they take maybe 1/10th the damage you did because Minions give up so easily. (Speaking of Minions I'm tired of watching the Cannon switch targets on Minions when both aren't doing anything special or the first hasn't died, it just randomly switches targets.)

Some champions are given tools where they can maybe do something sometimes [Renekton]. Some have absolutely nothing they can do [Talon]. I'm frankly ticked that Talon has been treated the way he has. That you even consider his greatest strength to be roaming. It's only his greatest strength because he has no other options! If he fails the roam he is actually likely fucked for the rest of the game due to the snowballing effects of being behind.

Talon's power is in the midgame and he's okay at best in the late. But he can't be strong in the midgame because he can't set himself up in the early. Like a Nocturne can. Compare him to Katarina who is manaless and has a manaless escape. She has much better roaming powers because she will come to the side lane with more money due to the fact she can salvage her early much better by using her Q freely and her W in any situation Talon would have used his. Then she can escape ganks and all-ins with E.

Better roaming champions are Leblanc and Kassadin simply due to the speed at which they can arrive at a sidelane and the inescapability they impress upon you AND that they have significant CC. Can't tell you how many times I laned vs Leblanc and unfortunately having to eat her harass from spells completely for free and wondering when her mana will run out only to see my health will be gone in the next spell if I don't leave NOW and she's at half mana. Meanwhile Talon can land every Rake he's ever casted on the enemy (much harder to do) and he won't even be able to kill them with that. His mana will be gone before that happens. (Just to be clear to everyone I'm talking about lane phase).

So I find it hilarious people complain about Maw of Malmortius. God forbid the melee assassins buy an item to survive the lane phase. To be fair, I do think the Armor Pen should be removed. It didn't seem to fit the item. BUT I'm watching what must be mage mains complain about it (Why would any one who plays AD complain about it after all?) And I heard them crying because they can't burst their target anymore or "do anything."

I'm sorry but wtf is this item 3157 item? As long as this item exists you have no room to complain. It provides a hybrid of defensive stats and offensive stats just like Maw. The difference is you CAN overpower the magic shield. You CAN'T overpower raw invincibility. So don't give me this crap about burst. Zhonya's as it exists is the most powerful item in League and, in fact, always has been with one exception. When it was first put in to the state it is now and QSS/Merc still had the ability to remove ALL debuffs, then QSS/Merc was the strongest, Zhonya's being second. Now that QSS/Merc has been nerfed Zhonya's is back on top. I agree with removing the armor pen on Maw, perhaps for Lifesteal and making Lifegrip stronger, it would make sense, especially since it's being considered as a "fighter" item now. But if so then something needs to be done about Zhonya's. Frankly it should be probably made in to a utility item, like Ohmwrecker, Guardian Angel, and similar items. By removing the AP, so anyone can use it. Of course, give it more utility stats to compensate... it still has a power budget after all.

23 Comments

Kaioko10/10/2016, 10:59:42 PM4 votes

Most people don't complain about Talon when it comes to AD mids. They complain about the Zed, Yasuo, Fizz and the likes who are able to gap close, get better stats for being melee and have very little reliance on mana. You do realize melee champions get MR per level whereas ranged champions receive none right?

Furthermore, I'm not sure why you're complaining about the Talon vs LeBlanc match up. LeBlanc is an early game bully while talon is one of the better late game assassins but due to his unhealthy play style he was toned down quite a bit. Play something like LeBlanc vs. Zed and you get somewhat of a more even matchup.

OurLestrade10/10/2016, 10:58:38 PM4 votes

No actual info's come out yet, that's what bothers me. They're just using colourful words before throwing it out onto the PBE and then dragging it onto live a week or two later without any tweaks.

Woook3r10/11/2016, 1:05:18 AM2 votes

I dont really have a problem with zhonyas. yea i do think its the best active in the game, but it enables an individual to make plays. I used to find it quite annoying because it was always up and 5/10 times it would just be used to delay the death of a mage who was caught out. pointlessly used in a lot of situations, but they nerfed the cooldown and that was really good.

I dont really see how maw helps you make a play tho..i just see it as an item that is mandatory vs some champions and in a way its there to balance the insane power of ap burst mages and ap assassins which never truly fall off due to having a poor game.

i think the difference between armor and mr, ap and ad is not in a very good place in this game. And I think that Zhonyas shoulld have a passive like maw and maw should have a passive like zhonyas. Or at least im not sure why they have the passives that they do have.

MaliciousX10/11/2016, 8:02:08 PM2 votes

The problem with Maw is that a couple of champs abuse it, and are borderline oppressive with it. Im on your side overall, i think melee champs need this option in laning phase against mages. Best example of this item being too strong on a champion would be Zed of course. Hea already a stupid strong laner, but Maw makes him practically unkillable in lane in a 1v1.

ValiantDogFood10/10/2016, 10:59:02 PM1 votes

It's called counterplay bud. That's why talon is bad melee, and his roams are good despite your opinion. And the difference between zhonyas and merc/maw? YOU CAN'T DO SHIT WHILE YOU'RE GOLDEN.

I say with my bronze icon

Dark Nephthys10/11/2016, 1:38:25 AM1 votes

While I will say that I don't really have a problem with Talon as people have mentioned that the more "unfair" AD mid laners to fight is Yasuo Zed so I won't say anything about the entire Leblanc Vs Talon instance.

However, I will say that item 3157 is not as awesome or strong of an item that you are implying, or at least I should say...that it's not any where near as strong as item 3156.

Just look at what the items gives...

item 3157 Cost: 2900 70 AP 45 Armor 10% CDR

Active: 2.5 Second Stasis with a 120 CD

item 3156 Cost: 3250 55 AD 40 MR 10 Armor Pen

Passive at under 30%: Grants 300 + 1 per magic ressit for 5 seconds (90 CD) AND 10% Spell vamp and Life steal until out of combat.

For starters, let's look at Zhonyas as an item comparing it to the other AP items. 70 AP is extremely low for it's price of almost 3k Gold. Hell even item 3504 gives 60 AP for a much lower cost, the AP on Zhonyas is way to weak for it's price and for how much it's needed against the AD mid laners or champions in general. Not to mention that in most cases, Mages would love to get either item 3027 or item 3165 so they can keep up with their mana cost, but against some match-ups (like Zed ) they are forced into a Zhonyas just to survive them, and in the end makes them run out of mana really easily in the early/mid game..And I don't like Zhonyas as a first item, the stats it gives is not worth rushing it unless you are playing Kennen Morgana Fiddlesticks and even then most of the time they still like to get a different item first.

While the 45 Armor is good and helpful, in most cases the CDR just feels almost wasted since a lot of items now give CDR. Personally, I'd be fine with them removing the CDR from it and adding another 20 AP...I think at least 90 AP will make you feel much more happy to buy as a first item imo. Plus you keep on going on like the Stasis is this ultimate active...Yes there are moments when it's very strong and useful, like dodging a Karthus or Zed ultimate comes to mind, or using it with Kennen/Morgana/Fiddle Sticks etc. But in most cases it's just used to stall a fight and wait for a few seconds for another ability or dodge some thing and that's not all the time going to help you. If you used Zhonyas, that also gives the enemy team another 2-3 seconds to catch up to the fight and surround you.

Then you got the CD of the item. With Zhonyas being 120 CD, which for most assassins, is a longer CD then their ultimate so they will still have time to re-jump back on you knowing you won't have the active. Also the comparison between item 3155 item 3191, Hexdrinker is a much better component than Seeker and just Hexdrinker alone is enough to make mages life hell in lane. Not to mention that Maw also gets 55 AD which is around the average AD of items that AD assassins would build and giving 10 Armor pen which even more allows them to counter mages who build Zhonyas. Also Maw has a shorter CD on the shield than Zhonyas.

tl;dr Maw is much better of an item than Zhonyas and a much better counter used to beat the opposite. Maw offers way more and actually makes you feel powerful when you build it, while building Zhonyas early feels like you wasted your gold on it. Mages need their mana regen and can't always afford to rush a Zhonyas, while there is no reason not to ever rush a Maw on AD assassins.

RogueWill10/12/2016, 2:00:56 AM1 votes

This is funny. Tanks suffer the same problem and that's why they were shoved into the Jungle. They can't set up themselves on the early game, spike at midgame and become ok at best on late game since everyone will have enough damage by then to kill them easily...yet no one complains about that instead god forbid if a tank midgame is a tad on the strong side.

Catastrop10/11/2016, 8:14:19 PM1 votes

You people seem to think Hourglass is just this big one way ticket to freedom, it's a double edged sword more than anything. While I'm stalling for CD's, the enemy's are also counting down, what happens after those 2.5 seconds is what differentiates a good hourglass proc to a terrible one. Maw's shield on the other only benefits you, and doesn't give your enemy the chance to use it against you. It's not that Maw is better, it's just that Maw doesn't also happen to give your a opponent an advantage by consequence.

Could not care10/10/2016, 11:16:21 PM1 votes

I would say, Talon just needs a buff, so he can hardly be used as an example.

Hexdrinker is too good though. Not only Zhonyas has a huge cost in comparison, statwise it's a pretty bad purchase, so you really can't build it as 1st or 2nd item without falling behind greatly by default. Hexdrinker gives more than enough stats to be effective as first item.

About Zhonyas, QSS and Hexdrinker.. if mages could build some decent equivalents of QSS with AP stats and a melee Hexdrinker, Zhonyas would probably join the trashbin where Ohmwrecker currently is. In fact, I've already seen mages running with QSSes and even in Worlds there was a Ryze who built QSS into mercurial simply because he needed the active. CCing yourself to avoid damage is not exactly a great idea often, and neither Hexdrinker nor QSS have that disadvantage.