Can we have a serious moment of discussion about Maokai?

Averia·5/16/2017, 6:17:17 PM·5 votes·3,382 views

I'm actually seriously curious who thought these ideas were good together? And I don't mean this is as a "wah I died to saplings" post, this is a genuine "you fucked up with these changes". Maokai will probably never fulfill the tank niche he's supposed to properly while the current design choices are on his kit.

  • High % max HP damage (8% base, doubled in brush)
  • Super high AP scaling (like seriously 2% per 100 AP, or 1% per 50 AP, doubled in brush? Getting upwards of 40% max health damage isn't impossible or even hard)
  • Stackable trap
  • No diminishing returns
  • Impossible to clear without risk of taking damage
  • Throwing these all on a champion whose first designation is "tank". Seriously, Tanks aren't supposed to deal damage, I could have sworn that was the whole reasoning behind the Mid-year Tank Update in the first place? Was it not to lower the amount of damage output in favor of tankiness and utility?
  • Almost forgot to mention the stupid "throw it in a bush for double damage" gimmick.

I.e. why do Maokai's saplings just ignore everything that Jhin's traps, Teemo's 'Shrooms, Shaco's Boxes etc. were given as counterplay? Because they're not invisible? They offer absurds amount of zone control and are only really countered by other oppressive mechanics (i.e. Zyra plants). 1 of them is enough to take anything that isn't a full-tank champion off the fields of justice while they return to base, an act that takes anywhere from 20-40 seconds. 2+ is enough to outright kill squishies and 4+ can basically kill anything that's not 3 tank items deep. Not to mention these traps provide zones of control for upwards of a minute and the cooldown is incredibly short even without CDR at 11 seconds.

Maokai was a fine champion before these changes. His ultimate was the only overbearing part of his kit but Riot chose to gut him in favor of a stupid trap gimmick. Literally just changing his ultimate and passive would have been more than enough to completely fix the design problems Riot had with Maokai's kit. Or was it because we wanted to try throwing Maokai into the jungle, when he was already good at jungling? Because now his jungle clear sucks and his ganks have no damage.

There can be argument that there are nerfs/changes on the PBE, however the issue is not the numbers or anything of the sort, it's the actual design philosophy behind the rework to begin with. The only truly problematic portion of Maokai's kit was his generic "I take less damage" ultimate. Which, by the way was just randomly re-applied to Galio in hideous fashion. In fact a lot of Galio's kit would have looked pretty good on Maokai with a few different twists which I think kind of emphasizes how generic Galio's rework was too (seriously the only "situational and unique" mechanic in Galio's kit is the strong magic damage shield), but that's a discussion for another day.

I don't expect the rework to be reverted (The only time Riot's owned up to a rework was the Kog'maw rework which was an obvious failure). However I believe moving the % health damage from his E back to his W and making the E ratio something like .4-.5 instead (or leaving the ratio low at like .3 and increasing the base damage) and leaving the double damage effect on is a much cleaner approach to handling Maokai as a champion. This alone would probably be enough to move Maokai back into the tank role and fix this gimmicky bullshit.

Saplings would then still be powerful, but Maokai would be rewarded more for going into the fray and playing as a tank rather than just hiding in the brush waiting for saplings to effectively remove an enemy champion off the map. This in turn favors a tankier build path and rewards maokai for playing to his strengths: A strong disruptor with lots of CC and self-healing, rather than playing to a "I deal retarded damage" wet-dream fantasy playstyle.

39 Comments

Ralanr5/16/2017, 6:18:29 PM3 votes

"Tanks aren't supposed to deal damage"

They are supposed to deal enough to function in solo lanes when they are designed for those lanes.

Averia5/16/2017, 6:19:28 PM2 votes

And fixing the problem isn't as simple as just nerfing saplings. Either Saplings will always be the main playstyle for Maokai, or he will be unplayable unless Riot makes him too powerful everywhere else in his kit to compensate for completely losing his ability to abuse his saplings.

This is what I mean when I refer to saplings as being a design problem, not a numbers problem. Nerfing them won't fix the issue. They'll just remain the issue until they're nerfed to the point where Maokai will be too underwhelming to be an effective champion compared to other champions in his niche role.

Lucian Waifu5/16/2017, 6:23:33 PM1 votes

Riot is reaching a cliff where the game is going to become extremely unbalanced for all the wrong reasons. Currently assassins have slower burst than dps mages, ADC still sucks, supports are doing more and more damage, tanks have been given free percent hp damage while they are suppose to do less damage, top lane has nearly lost its identity, turrets are there to scare away lower elo players because they no longer do damage, baron isn't scary anymore, jungling has become stale because only high efficiency junglers can be effective, keystones still feel off, etc.

420 grams5/16/2017, 6:28:43 PM1 votes

I think they'd be a lot better if multiple hits on the same champion does less damage. Or maybe not double damage in bushes. It's silly to have that much damage output without needing any damage items. Not to mention they also give utility like vision and a slow.

"Oh, just build Mr! It's all magic damage."

That's great, but I shouldn't have to buy Mr to not get one shot by a tank.

Doctor Jarvis5/16/2017, 7:07:40 PM1 votes

I don't know how Riot looked at Mao'Kai's current kit and said "yeah, I'll build this guy like a tank." There's literally no reason to; sure, you can survive a little longer after W'ing into a fight, or you can just keep hucking 12% max health damage at the enemy. You know what we call a character with a lot of small, unreliable pieces of CC? A mage. You made a mage, then said "no guys, he's a tank."

Pinker 105/18/2017, 9:46:39 PM1 votes

To be perfectly honest, maokai's %max hp was already a horrible idea on his w, you could assasinate a carry pretty easily built full tank. To put %max hp dmg on an AoE ability for a TANK and then DOUBLE IT from inside brush, meaning maokai can (singlehandedly) deal nearly 80% of a player's max hp in dmg with a SINGLE SPELL. If he builds RoA then full tank , that jumps to 100%, one player's worth of hp can be wiped with a single spell. It's not overly likely to happen unless the enemies like 5 man face-checks, but it really makes you wonder how on earth anyone could ever possibly have thought it was a good idea. Even assassins can't do that much damage with a single spell, and they build for it...

This should never have made it past brainstorming, take one second to think about 8% (plus scaling) max health x2 AoE damage, and all it takes is one third grader in math class to realize those numbers are horribly unbalanced.

I've always liked maokai, and the only thing I can say about this rework is WHY?!?!