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Cass players get ready to stand for Sion players

so chad··6 votes·1,304 views

Back in March of 2014 Riot Chun gave insight into a potential future retune of Lee Sin (http://www.surrenderat20.net/2014/03/red-post-collection-lee-sin-retune-team.html) which was to be similar in scope to the one given to Cassiopeia. Essentially, Riot wanted to reduce the early game power of Lee Sin and channel it into a stronger late game. This upset a legion of Lee Sin players because they viewed it as Riot attempting to pull a complete 180 on the power curve of the quintessential early game jungler. Due to the condemnation of the player base Riot scrapped the retune entirely, despite viewing Lee Sin as the flag bearer of a game warping subset of champs crowding out nearly all variety among junglers.

Fast forward to two weeks ago. Riot informed the players of a retune for Cassiopeia (http://www.newsoflegends.com/index.php/wip-pbe-cassiopeia-rework-tu-guardian-of-the-sands-khazix-new-akali-splash-art-24895/), which was met with equally negative feedback as the Lee Sin retune. This time Riot's plan was more egregious, as not only did they plan to pull a complete 180 on Cassiopeia's power curve, but also play style by shifting all of the power out of Cassiopeia's poisoning skill shots and dumping it into her single target targeted ability. Cassiopeia players were very open to a retune as she is clearly not a powerful or popular champion (though this is only true regarding Summoner's Rift), unlike Lee Sin players who wanted Riot to put the nerf gun down and step away, but were extremely negative towards the direction Riot was taking her. Unlike Lee Sin, Cassiopeia's rework was pushed through.

What was the difference? There's a boat load of Lee Sin players, but Cassiopeia isn't nearly as popular, and popularity is tied directly to the in-game strength of the champions. This creates a dangerous downward spiral regarding the relationship between Riot and the playerbase. Players are unhappy that their favorite champion isn't strong enough, but not many people play the champion due to his/her weakness, and thus Riot doesn't listen to the concerns of the players who have invested time/money into the champion!

Well, only half of that breakdown is on Riot. We know that we can put the brakes on terrible reworks as its happened before (Lee Sin). We just need to come together to help each other out. When Riot gives details on the Sion rework we need to raise the alarms if it appears that another champion will lose his soul. Sion players won't be able to do it on their own as he's one of the few champions as unpopular as Cass.

EDIT: Guys, don't give flack to people who say they enjoy the Cass retune. The whole point of this thread is giving a voice to the little guy. Refute their points, explain why their reasoning may be wrong, or give your own opinion back to them, but theres no reason to be negative towards them.

26 Comments

Worgslarg8 votes

You are assuming that whatever riot does for sion is a bad thing, and you are trying to incite a crowd simply to complain about sion, who needs a rework, changing his identity or not.

so chad3 votes

Read my post again

redniwediS3 votes

Reading it again doesn't make it sound any better. Sion needs heavy changes, not an angry mob looking out for him.

Points can be refuted all you like, but only Riot has the information needed to decide what changes will actually benefit the game. If you want to have a real argument over this stuff you have to keep opinion out of it, and as players we rarely have the information required to pull that off.

so chad2 votes

You have to read it the first time to read it again. To make it very clear for both of you

  1. At no point did I assume anything regarding the Sion rework. I only called for solidarity as a player base should the rework turn out to be a stinker because it worked for Lee Sin.
  2. I do not advocate against updating champions, in fact Im very for it. What I am against is pulling a complete 180 on players, many of home have spent actual money on the champion.
Sunfield3 votes

You do understand the idea of his rework dont you. Sion is going to be a completely new champion. Hes not going to be like Cass, who has only different power peaks, or NIdalee, who just got a new mechanic.

Nobody. Plays. Sion. In Riots standard he is on the level of old Karma and Trundle, confusing mess for a champion which many often confuse with uniqueness

so chad1 votes

I am completely in favor of reworking Sion and retuning Cassiopeia. I have never said Cass was just fine and should be left alone. I am not, however, in favor of destroying everything that was liked about any champion.

Cassiopeia can be retuned as a caster who's strength lies in the early to mid game and is based on skillshot DoTs. She doesn't have to be retuned as a potato early to mid game who turns into Ryze late game.

Same goes for Sion. If they do to him what they have done to Cass (ie a complete 180 on power curve and play style) then he will become a worse Renekton, and I will be completely against that.

Sunfield1 votes

Sorry but you have no idea what destroying a champion is. Cass is played exacly the same way, same mechanics, same skills.

It was hardly a rework, much more like a power shift. Speak to Karma players if you want to know what a rework is. I bet some are lurking around.

And you still dont understand my point about SIon. Furthermore, you dont even play the champion so why would you care. The whole "Cass players stand for Sion players" is one of the worst circlejerk reactions i have ever seen. Not to mention, there are no Sion players.

Grand Eleven1 votes

Sorry but you have no idea what destroying a champion is. Cass is played exacly the same way, same mechanics, same skills.

Uh no. SHe used to use dots and could whittle down opponents. She could max either q or E first depending on her lane opponent. She actually had options.

New Cass Q is literally nothing more than a gateway spell for E spam. Her new passive is basically Nasus with an upper limit. She has one way to build now (r->e->w->q), must start tear, and any "depth" that was once there is now gone.

It was hardly a rework, much more like a power shift. Speak to Karma players if you want to know what a rework is. I bet some are lurking around.

its a rework that completely removed a style of play. Arguably the most popular style of play available to her.

Eagleheart6 votes

The problem is that Cassiopeia's old passive was, indeed, a noob trap. You were encouraged to spam your skills yet your mana reserves an cooldown put a halt to this very quickly. Why they would rework sion (A champion I scarcely see ingame unless I'm playing AD sion top an laughing.) I don't know. But Cassiopeia did need a gameplay update and needed one quite badly. We have it now, and currently it's still hot out of the furnace, we just need to hammer riot to press it into it's proper place.

so chad1 votes

Cassiopeia was in no way a noob trap. She definitely had points of mastery, like managing your passive, but that's not what a noob trap is.

If anything her current rework makes her a noobtrap. New players look at her passive and think of the incredible endgame which they will never reach.

Sunfield1 votes

That is a severe case of failing to adress the point you are replying to.

so chad1 votes

Theres nothing else to address, I've said many times that I'm in favor of Cassiopeia being updated but against a complete 180 in character design.

Sunfield1 votes

In other words, you refuse to acnowledge any arguments other than your precious phrase and I am out of here.

Replying to a 300 word essay on Earth orbiting sun with "Im completely against any theories that disprove Sun orbiting Earth". Way to go buddy.

The Queen Viper1 votes

Actually her old passive was the reason why she could do sustained dmg and why she usually was referred as "the highest sustained DPS champ in the game".

Cassiopeia was fine before, she never needed any gameplay updates, only bug fixes and QoL changes to her E and R hitbox. If RITO doesn't revert the changes, she will be forgotten and never be picked again in serious games, high elo ranked or competitive...

Sunfield1 votes

Because she was such a contested pick in ranked and pro play.

And tell me more how her old passive was useful outside of the lane when mana regen items make all champs close to resourceless. Notice how only Cass mains say she is fine, just like Karma and Trundle mains did... see anything here?

The Queen Viper1 votes

Because she was such a contested pick in ranked and pro play.

The fact that she was hard to play, didn't mean she would be somehow unviable in ranked/pro plays. Cass has always been struggling against assassins and high mobility champs, or champs that can just outrange her. However mobility creep is not her fault, and she could always get Rylai's to compensate.

And tell me more how her old passive was useful outside of the lane when mana regen items make all champs close to resourceless.

Actually some people didn't get mana items on the old Cass at all, or they did so very late into the game. Her old passive allowed you to just rush dmg if you knew how to manage your mana with that passive.

Notice how only Cass mains say she is fine, just like Karma and Trundle mains did... see anything here?

Probably because only Cass mains knew how to play her? The fact is, she was just fine... and many people just sucked at playing her.

so chad1 votes

Ricklessabandon on Cassiopeia:

"given her play pattern(s), she'll likely remain more of a pocket pick for dedicated cassi players. i think that's fine when it's for the right reasons, and in cassi's case i think it makes sense as you've in part pointed out. that doesn't mean she isn't in want of love/attention on our end though. :3"

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=44403996#post44403996

Champions can be fine without being pick or ban in ranked/pro. No one is asking for a Teemo rework despite not seeing much play at the highest levels.

Sunfield1 votes

That was in January. While you're at it, dig out the promise that IronStylus made regarding snow SR. And lets round up all old quotes in general because RIot's policy remains the same over years like the game doesnt change.

Btw your dedication scares me

Fat of the Land6 votes

I like the Cassiopeia rework. Her poisons are still crucial to her kit as that sets up her ability to spam twin fangs, without landing the poisons her DPS drops dramatically. She's still the poison based mage, I don't understand why people complain like her identity has changed when it hasn't. Her playstyle is nearly identical to before. The main difference is that instead of being a lane bully who transitions into a super DPS mage she has a more traditional hypercarry power curve, which is a good thing because it's more consistent with the class archetypes of League.

The nerfs to her DoTs AP ratios were necessary because DoTs are safe harass and deceptively strong, so when those DoTs deal high damage it turns champions who abuse them into obnoxious lane bullies, which in turn means they must lose power elsewhere or be straight broken (See Malzahar, Teemo, nerfs to Dravens & Twitchs passive etc.).

She could probably still use some tweaks (I'd like to see some bonus damage if she uses her ult when the enemy is facing away) but overall they did a really good job with the rework.

Solumindra1 votes

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=49926654#post49926654

You know nothing of Cass.

so chad1 votes

Her poison is now only crucial to her kit because it turns on her E. Ask yourself, if Q and W did 0 damage what would change about her current playstyle? Nothing.

Previously Cassiopeia's Q and W did most of the heavy lifting, allowing her to whittle down opponents before finishing them with a burst of Twin Fangs. The emphasis was on landing her skillshot DoTs, not only blasting away with a targeted spamcannon.

The Queen Viper3 votes

Nah... honestly, you really have no idea what you are talking about. You don't even play nor main Cass, so is it really a surprise that you don't understand why people complain? Dude, get real bro.

The problem was that Cass was never about her Twing Fangs, it was all about her poison (DoT). Majority of Cass mains used Twing Fangs as a finisher, not as the "main source" of dmg, since obviously as a squishy mage, that skill is too unsafe against the majority of the champs in this game.

redniwediS1 votes

Did you actually read his post? He covered the DoT change better than you did, and he never specifically mentioned Twin Fangs.

The Queen Viper2 votes

I did, and unfortunately his post is incorrect regardless.

redniwediS1 votes

Would you care to make a reply to his post then? All you did was insult Fat and talk about Twin Fangs, which he didn't touch with his post.

Wullf1 votes

All it says is that Riot made mistake with Lee sin giving in to his players.

Though both cases are completely different as Riot (or atleast i think so) is trying to make all champions somewhat viable picks, because Cass was forgotten and underplayed but on the other hand Lee sin is/was played too much.

But both these champs had (have) unhealty mechanics in their kit. Lee sin has his early dominance and Cassiopea her ridiculous poison damage.

I am not saying that Cass rework is alright but I do not dislike the direction she is heading and belive me I really liked old Cass.

The thing you are promoting here is developing preassure on Riot to make them do what YOU want, because you think that you know what is right.

But think is she needed rework so reverting it will help nothing. Jut give her chance, write something constructive and then maybe we shall see reasonable changes.

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