The quest for a -slightly- more unholy grail

The Bardic Gay·2/4/2015, 10:18:36 PM·18 votes·1,813 views

Let's be frank, grail sucks right now. Outclassed by Morello's as a mana item for casters who rely on spell spam to deal relevant damage. I'm certain some people are quite happy with this, considering that it used to be an item you could buy to forget about your mana pool. That's not something I think needs to come back, it's a bit of a bad concept, even if some of my favorite champions greatly benefited from it. Anthene's unholy grail should be made a decent item that's worth buying, and as such, it should be given something that differentiates it from the rest of the mana/cdr/ap/ items.

Now, we ask ourselves, why, exactly, is anthene's an unholy grail? Clearly, it's a grail filled with blood. It's omnious, cultish, malevolent. If I had to guess, it looked like it was a sacrificial artifact of sorts.

I think you get where I'm going with this.

I propose, that in order to make Anthene's a more thematically complete item, that is also a viable choice, that it should be given an active ability, one that allows the user to sacrifice a portion of their HP for a buff. Maybe a toggle, but I think an active ability with a cost would be easier to balance.

I wouldn't quite know what this active would be. It should be something that is obviously geared for sustained damage mages, so i think a damage amp is a bit out of the question, otherwise it'd just be a slightly different version of DFG with a health cost. Perhaps a Cooldown reduction/mana buff? Something that applied bonus cooldown reduction that ignored the cap would be pretty fly, if you asked me.

Maybe I'm iffy on the details, but I think this is an idea that could genuinely give help to an item that got slammed, as well as providing a nice thematic touch to the item.

Thoughts?

50 Comments

Sailor Mint2/4/2015, 10:25:18 PM5 votes

You build Grail when you want MR, you build Morello's otherwise. That's it. It's a fine purchase on Utility mages with shields (i.e.: Orianna and Lulu).

As for the name nitpicking: Base Item: Chalice of Harmony Support upgrade: Crucible Offensive upgrade: Unholy Grail (originally Chalice of Discord).

Cindikle2/5/2015, 3:20:35 AM5 votes

Grail's regen is in a good spot. It's equal to morello's if you hold an average of 60% mana. This does not include the mana on kill/assist. This extra mana makes it the better late game regen item in terms of mana. But this mostly counters the GW passive on morello's.

It's problem is that it costs 400g more for 25MR. Following the league wiki 20AP = 435g 25MR = 500g

No where near the 400g gap.

The other problem is that Chalice costs 1000g. Although it is much stronger than Idol. It has the full mana regen benefits of Athene while Idol has half that of Morello's. But it is 600g. Another 400g gap.

I'd like to see Athene get buffed to 35MR(this increases it's worth by 200g). And chalice dropped to 800g. This will make Athene cost 2500. 850/2550g is also an option if too good.

This will put the costs in a more realistic place. The rest is decided by choosing between the extra mana in a teamfight vs reducing healing.

Cyrrus2/5/2015, 12:07:16 AM3 votes

Regen mana on taking magic damage? Not sure what the numbers would be. item 3211 kinda thing

ProfDrDeath2/4/2015, 11:09:02 PM3 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/Vci86YUJ-buffing-athenes-the-blood-grail

Something like an oom-emergency button - either converting some of your HP to mana or allowing you to cast a single spell for HP instead of mana. Playing on the Blood Grail theme of the item.

Lord Dusteon2/4/2015, 11:43:42 PM2 votes

...Why? Buying an item TO HURT YOURSELF for mana seems really counterproductive, to, i don't know, just buying the freaking mana? Otherwise, if you haven't noticed no items provide negative stats or negative effects for the owners; one of the main reasons is because spending your gold to become weaker or hurt yourself is really unfun, even if the weakness/hurt makes up for great stats.

Abyssphere2/4/2015, 11:10:22 PM2 votes

I'd just like 5 more magic resist and 25% more base mana regen. Nothing crazy or complicated, nothing that returns it to season 4 levels. But something to make it feel like a worthwhile mana item and still the more defensive one rather than Morello.

SleepyLionCub2/5/2015, 4:33:35 AM1 votes

Chalice should just give 45 mr :/

Weasel Kensei2/5/2015, 10:57:10 AM1 votes

Im sorry I have to disagree farily strongly. You may not have the ability to "forget" about your mana bar with is alone, but certain things are impossible without it. Im pretty sure I can still take Aniva and build mana and AUG and maintain her ult at an enemy turret much longer while sieging with it than without it.... Id like to see that done with alone item 3165 .

Just like you get item synergy from item 3151 item 3116 you may have to build item 3003 item 3174 to get super good mana regen. In several games I have saved up the 1,750 or so gold just to get item 3028 item 3070 . This will mean that I can spam skills on Ziggs so hard that... I can still run oom but it is much harder. As that Tear otG charges up, the amount regened by AUG gets larger and larger meaning more and more mana sustain.

Im a bit new to LoL, but not mobas. I prefer resource sustain and if manafont was taken it would hurt me. Maybe not every player but my play style for many of my champs would be impacted in a negative manner.

Xtremey2/5/2015, 5:18:41 PM1 votes

item 3174 TOGGLE: Sacrifice X% of your max health every second for X% of your max mana.

Silents4292/5/2015, 5:34:35 PM1 votes

PERSONALLY.

I haven't had issues with mana on anyone.

(Vel Koz, Lux, Yorick anymore, Ali)

And while I never really bought the grail on anyone other then Lux, Vel and Alistar, I haven't had mana problems lately. It's like the change made me learn to conserve mana, which of course you said was a good thing, that going back to not giving a hoot about mana anymore was a horrible place.

I still think 1 or 2 champions here and their need a small buff to their mana regen/pool to give them some help.

If I were to have any change added to the item, It would be the lower price or giving it a health boost. OR!

Imagine if it had a passive that granted nearby allies more mana regen? It would be a great support item them.

DrCyanide2/6/2015, 10:37:07 PM1 votes

Have the Unholy Grail siphon health on a toggle. In exchange for siphoning health, the mana regen it gives is increased significantly. Additionally, you gain some amount of spell vamp while it's toggled on.

Potentially Cool Stuff:

  • Spammy mages can choose what they need more, health or mana.
  • Missing a spell has a health cost, while landing a spell reduces the cost.
  • Warns the enemy that a spell is likely coming there way (assuming it has a visual like item 3042 )

Potentially Problematic Stuff:

  • Spell vamp rewards single target spells more than AoE spells. This in turn makes the toggle cost less punishing for targeted abilities like Annie or Veigar 's Q, as oppose to Ziggs , Xerath , or Ahri 's Q.
Giovarco2/4/2015, 10:25:12 PM1 votes

Good idea. Maybe not on item 3174, but definitely a good idea.

Leaf of the lake2/7/2015, 7:24:32 AM1 votes

Three things they could do that would all make grail a viable option again:

  1. Increase the MR back to 40
  2. Increase the AP to 80 or 90 (s2 grail, yo)
  3. Reduce the cost

Any of these would bring it into line as a viable option.

Drunk Rummate2/4/2015, 10:27:04 PM1 votes

i think its still good as an early magic resist option versus AP assassins. i still buy it a lot of the time and i have pretty good success with it.

McAllister2/4/2015, 10:37:20 PM1 votes
  1. Remove mana font passive

  2. Bump AP up to 80

  3. New active costs 10% of current health and restores 10% of missing mana on a 20 sec(ish) CD

  4. Tune numbers and increase cost as necessary

The way I see it, there are two problems with a strong Athene's: it makes champions that are balanced around limited mana very strong, and it's the obvious item to rush in the classic AP v. AP midlane. Introducing an HP-for-Mana conversation seems like it will help with those problems: if the CD is long enough, mana will still be a limiting factor, and if the HP cost is high enough, spamming it on cooldown will have a meaningful price.

EDIT: Keep mana font on Chalice and Mikhail's, those are much less worrisome in midlane and the support doesn't want to be bleeding HP all the time in lane

SpecterVonBaren2/4/2015, 11:30:27 PM1 votes

What if its mana regen increased depending on how much health you are missing?

RAT IN GAME UwU 2/5/2015, 12:57:52 AM1 votes

active, lose health, gain mana, not sure how this was an overlooked option

junglerboy162/5/2015, 3:02:28 AM1 votes

Like a couple other people suggested, trade % current HP for % missing mana.