"Senna is just gonna be an ADC!" - Debunking the Myth

ModCaptainMårvelous·10/30/2019, 7:47:12 AM·69 votes·18,848 views

So a lot of people are only looking at Senna's positive traits, as people often do. "Senna is gonna be sick nasty broken OP" "You heard it here" "Day one insta-ban" "Riot just trying to milk the game :". However, people are conveniently ignoring her massive, and I do mean massive, downsides.

#Senna's Passive

Free damage. Range. Crit. omg omg omg so busted right?

Not quite. For one, Senna's crits deal 35% less damage. 35%. That's a huge negative to her critical power. Even with 100% crit and infinity, she's never going to hit as hard as a normal ADC. In addition to this, Senna gains no AD per level. None. Zip. Zilch. She is entirely reliant on her soul mechanic to keep pace. If Senna fails and falls behind, she can't just buy her way back into the game with a single item power spike. Excessive crit does add to lifesteal but we're gonna hit another point with that in a second. Senna also only gains 25 attack range per stack of 20 and has a base range of 600. Annoying, maybe, but she needs at least 80 stacks to get some absurd range. Unless you buy RFC?

#Senna's Base Stats

One of the things nobody seems to talk about is the proverbial wind-up on Senna's auto-attack. As Riot August said: Most champions have between a 0.2/0.3 delay on Autos from animation-to-shot. This matters quite a bit in terms of orb-walking and getting some autos out. Senna's autos have a 0.5 second delay. It takes Senna half a second to fire. And no, this isn't improved by attack speed. Senna is a sluggish shooter with her gun which trades off her powerful damage (% current HP on hit) in favor of an admittedly questionable attack speed. She's also got some other meh stats befitting a support (330 MS and 520 HP, oof)

#Senna's E

Senna's E is grossly misunderstood. Everyone is under the impression that it makes people invisible, untargetable and hair-raisingly difficult to kill. This is not the case. While it does turn allies "invisible", it's more of a moving bush than Pyke's W. At all times you can tell where Senna is and when allies exit, they can still be hit by skillshots. Think of it more as "I am a giant vape cloud and nobody can tell who is in the vape cloud". Expect this to be something people don't understand.

#Senna's R

The giant array part is the only part that actively shields. The singular, tiny center beam damages people. Expect a ton of shields but not so many snipes with it. Not much to add here.

Senna doesn't have the makings of an ADC. She's sluggish, deals moderate damage and is entirely reliant on her mist passive to scale. In addition, while I didn't mention it above, Senna's scaling on her abilities is...meh. A ton of her ratios are siphoned by her supportive abilities so even if Senna becomes a major damage threat, she's always going to lean more on the utility part.

My guess is that people will attempt to take Senna as an ADC or a "Support" like Lux and build glass cannon. There will be some success but most will botch it and cry for buffs because Senna has so much of her ADC budget siphoned into her supporting tools. People are likely going to call her clunky because her shot delay is different from most champs.

All that said, I do think boards is right in that this is another champion which further strains the bounds of Pro play vs. PUB play. Once again, a cool design is hamstrung because (CHOOSE YOUR ENDING)

  • A.) ...riot continues to care about 0.0001% of pro players and high ELO.

  • B.) ...riot continues to cater to know-nothing casuals.

107 Comments

Sire Hippington10/30/2019, 12:29:56 PM21 votes

what you didn't acount for is the rate of gaining passive stacks, which makes or breakes it. And the ms boost she gets from it to make up for the high AA delay.

In the 1 test game i had so far, i reached 200 stacks in under 30 min. that's 200ad, leading to 250ad with not items, 100%crit and 50% lifesteal and 250 extra range, allowing me to constantly outrange towers...

Sure, the damage won't be hypercarrie levels, but she still gets very scary in the late thx to massive range and still enough damage with strong utillity. Though probably still not a big deal in soloQ, but her E will certainly break her in pro.

Hayaishi210/30/2019, 8:30:29 AM17 votes

You can put two champions two together and they still don't have more stuff in their kits than senna

Jaspers10/30/2019, 9:50:38 AM16 votes

They didn't create an support marksman. They created a AD Caster.

Who's building anything but lethality on her really?

Z3SIeeper10/30/2019, 9:05:04 AM14 votes

Some things you forgot to mention:

  • She has a 0.2 attack speed ratio, abysmally low. Forget about building AS on her, you can't even hit 1.5 with 6 Nashors at level 18.

  • Enemies who get into melee range of allies in Wraith stealth (E effect) can be targeted. Basically melee champions don't care about the untargetability at all other than for targeted gap closers.

Also for the crit thing, saying she only deals 130% damage on crits sounds better to your case than "she deals -35% damage on crits". They both mean the same thing, but one is a bigger number difference that requires less brainpower to comprehend.

Syrile10/30/2019, 8:40:38 AM13 votes

This is just... wrong?

First off... Getting base range of 600 and rather easily scaling up beyond Caitlyn is clearly broken. What did they nerf to fix Kalista? Range. Along with other ADCs. Her reduced damage on crits.. sure, that lowers her damage.. But her basic auto-attacks get +20% damage period. Her auto-attack delay decreases based on attack speed with no listed cap. Her damage scales infinitely. Her range...? I am not sure if it has a limit but I would assume so. Her crit % for free? Funny thing, when an ADC goes over the crit %, they get....? Nothing. She gets lifesteal.

Her passive also alters the way spell-thief's edge works for whatever insane reason. But at least that is supposedly being fixed with pre-season for everyone. Bonus current health damage up to 16%, btw.

She also gains bonus movement speed based on the person she hits... as if she needs even more stuff.

And this is just her passive. Just. Her. Passive.

Her base stats... Her base attack damage is higher than every ADC except Kalista (whom she outranges by 100 before scaling) and Lucian (who has a higher base AD by 1).

Her base movement speed is equal to or higher all of the ADCs that have higher ranges, including being equal to or higher than several with lower range than her.

Base armor is equal to or higher than most ADCs including many that are lower range than her and tied with Caitlyn.

So.. her base stats seem just fine and are actually, overall, superior to most ADCs. Accounting for range and ranged scaling by attacking your opponents (which she is good at), she is easily just fine here.

Her Q has range equal to her base attack. Hmm.... How many ADCs get bonus range on their skills based on their attack range? In fact.. how many ADCs have scaling attack range? Oh, and of course the Cooldown decreases based on auto-attacking.. but at least the cooldown does not drop below 15 (yet) without CDR or auto attacking. Oh yeah... this ability hits enemy minions... This was too strong even for Pyke to keep and Riot loves him being OP. So... ya know... make a better version of it. Oh yeah... This can target wards and turrets as well (even if it does not do damage to them) so it does not need a champion to target. Also, applies on-hit effects.

Her W. Literally just a better version of Jhin's root.

Her E Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Everything bad about Pyke and Akali put onto your teammates as well. Not only are you unable to auto-attack or point-and-click target them, but you cannot tell which enemy champion is coming at you. Seems fun.

Her R That "tiny" singular beam is bigger than Jinx's or Ashe's and I think even Ezreal's ulti, travels vastly faster, and has the added benefit of shielding your team at the same time.

Honestly, the description you gave is more of a gross misrepresentation than even the most complaint-filled thread I have read about her yet.

Kai Guy10/30/2019, 8:21:50 AM10 votes

Yea but players are unable to understand some basics such as complexity does not equate to OMG OP. Akali if she just had empowered damage for her next auto as her passive would be stronger. Get rid of MS, energy, range. Still a stronger passive simply due to reliability.

Oh well. each and every change will inspire tilt and rage on boards. There will be a flood of OMG OP and OMG BUFF THIS SHIT CHAMP day 1 like everything ever.

Stylîte10/30/2019, 2:02:13 PM8 votes

Why do people white knight about balance so hard? New champions in the past few years have almost always been overtuned on release. People like you were making posts like this about Akali when she was reworked. Pyke as well. Hell, you'll probably keep insisting that nothing is wrong with a champion right up until the point they get nerfed. As much as I'd like to give Riot the benefit of the doubt, they've proven to balance champions pretty poorly out of the gate and Senna's kit looks particulary strong.

Worst JG Wins10/30/2019, 12:47:04 PM7 votes

{quoted}

Senna doesn't have the makings of an ADC.

Riot has literally already said they will try to balance her as both an ADC and a support

You don't understand the E at all, it makes champs completely immune to point and click CC/dmg which is insanely broken.

Senna's autos have a 0.5 second delay. It takes Senna half a second to fire. And no, this isn't improved by attack speed

Factually not true.

GilxeN10/30/2019, 11:50:39 AM6 votes

Only E atm looks problematic, but the rest looks not "overloaded".

Nea10410/30/2019, 5:19:48 PM5 votes

"Senna is just gonna be another problem in this game, instead of an actual fun support, since this competent people never learn!" Pyke Yuumi

Fixed it for you.

WTBeGirl100EUhr10/30/2019, 4:07:47 PM5 votes

So I don't think this post is completely accurate in two places. Honestly mostly lends more to the case of her not being broken than being so though.

Senna's crit modifier is +30% (+48.25% with IE). This is where the 35% reduced damage stat comes from. That said, Senna also does 20% of her total AD on-hit. This damage cannot crit. As a result, Senna's AD ratio on a non-crit auto is essentially 1.2, and on crit 1.5 or 1.6825 with IE. This means that she scales even worse with crit than the OP states.

Also, Senna's AA wind-up does scale with attack speed but it's honestly the main thing that seems to scale, since you only reach some 1.4 AS with a maximum attack speed build and in said full AS build you almost feel like a normal ADC. I spent quite a bit of time on PBE today testing this to see if building attack speed would be worth it as much for the mobilty and, eh, no. Maybe one AS item since the first one seems to aid orbwalking on her a lot. Otherwise, no.

There's some other stuff that's cool to mention. Her Q hits turrets/wards/plants. I didn't actually test if this lets her heal turrets but I presume not. It also applies on-hit effects (including the 20% AD ratio on her passive).

As far as gaining passive stacks, there's some level of realistic expectation you can make. As a support she'll gain roughly 2 mists per wave from the waves when you account for cannon minions. Less early, more late. This means she's getting roughly 4 stacks a minute when sitting in lane. Plus you basically gain 1-2 stacks every time you trade and a stack when you kill a champion. 100 stacks at 20 minutes is probably a fairly reasonable expectation for a Senna doing well but a Senna doing badly is going to be way, way behind curve. As an ADC she gains far fewer stacks from waves and will have far fewer stacks in general in exchange for her increased gold income as she will not get a mist stack from most waves outside of the guaranteed ones from cannons.

Senna is a very, very VULNERABLE champion since she only has a weak movement speed steroid on her E and on her passive and her autos and Q have long animations for which she must stay still. Her root is delayed.

Jerry SeinfeId10/30/2019, 1:42:40 PM4 votes

my biggest issue is the wraith thing. So camouflage and stealth in general is strong, though i quite like it. but the whole thing about camouflage is that you can sneak up on someone but not just appear right next to em. My problem here is that it hides your champ even though they've visible. And while i understand i'm not supposed to be running at these wraith's what's someone like jinx or teemo gonna do when LB and lucian run into that shit and 2 wraiths come out? idk which one is a caster minion and which one is a oneshotting nightmare.

her R damage has no business being comparable to the likes of ezreal, jinx and draven 2 of which she outdamages in base damage unless draven gets a double hit. she's got half a damn shen ult attached to that projectile. it's got a higher cooldown but presence of mind exists.

as for her passive. She should at no point really be outranging those who specialise in range like Tristana JinxCaitlyn and especially not KogMaw. but considering it gives her 25 range for 20 stacks and you literally get stacks from doing everything you do i'd say she's here to replace some champs. and fucking free lifesteal for excess crit? big fucking lul.

all in all she ain't as crazy as some ppl expect, yeah she'll be broken in pro play (the fact that she's a flex pick alone) but who the fuck cares about pro play? she'll get some things removed, probably on her passive. depending on what gimmick ppl find to do dumb shit with her that'll be nerfed too. the standard new champion procedure.

Baby Ghoul10/30/2019, 8:24:00 AM4 votes

I do think her Q is a tad overloaded, but you make some good points.

However, a champion can be both a hindrance to our high ELO overlords and problematic at lower ELOs too. The most recent support release Yuumi is proof of that.

I'm by no means high ELO. I'm a Gold enchanter support main, but I despised Yuumi. I actually had to take a break from permabanning Pyke to ban her for a while.

Enchanters are easy to play, until you factor in other aspects such as positioning and defense. They're squishy, and first pick target among assassins. If you're standing in the wrong spot, you're dead. If you're not risking yourself at all, your teammates are dead. It's a balance. The trick to playing enchanters is being able to manage all that attention the enemy team is giving you while sustaining your team.

Yuumi completely eliminated that balance by making her incredibly safe to play. This meant that know-nothing casuals could competently play Yuumi while putting in minimal effort (or just having a pulse), and among the pros she was instantly hated because her safety coupled with her enchanter abilities was obnoxious in lane, and devastating out of it. There's Yuumi pairings that were unstoppable.

Earlier in the season she was a must-pick or ban in pro play, and even after the nerfs that were devastating to solo queue Yuumis, they still ban her.

I don't think the issue is pro play versus pub games.

It's the fact that Riot wants to eliminate class weaknesses, which isn't sustainable. Eventually those champions are nerfed or permabanned in ranked games after they had their time in the sun. It's not a sustainable model because none of us can create a connection to these champions because they won't be viable picks in draft or ranked.

I'm happy to see Riot's take on an enchanter/marksmen support, I just hope that in the next 6 months we don't have another Yuumi because when she comes out I'll be picking her up immediately.

PaladinNO10/30/2019, 3:45:16 PM4 votes

So I was looking through a Senna review video someone sent me...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx5HlvD68OA

No idea who's the narrator is...apparently some coach. Well, he can't be that good at his job, because he said "balancing" and in question form.

Anyway, it's obvious who designed this champ - this is "CertainlyT's all-time best hit-mix compilation". Lux R, Jinx R, Akali W (or whatever the shroud button is) all rolled into one. Just one concern: ...Where is her dash? Missed opportunity there, so back to the drawing board with that one. :/

I like the design of her big fucking BFG gun though.

https://d1lss44hh2trtw.cloudfront.net/assets/article/2016/05/17/doom-2016-BFG_1200x500.jpg

It's a little small ( Veigar ), but with scaling ( Veigar ) it can seemingly play the role of Dwarven sniper from DoTA just fine (Fountain Altar turret: "Am I a joke to you?").

And when Senna hurts Yasuo THROUGH his Windwall - HOW LONG HAVE WE WAITED FOR THIS DAY!?!?!?!?

6300 BE? ...Tencent? I'll take two. I am SO going to enjoy her in ARAM!

...And apparently, trying to write something in a funny manner is a waste of time.

Jesi Oni10/30/2019, 4:51:55 PM3 votes

Feast or Famine... Both sides will cry and I am tired of it already 😅

Tokishi10/30/2019, 3:51:00 PM2 votes

I mean, we're talking about the same company that put out garen from pbe, akali rework??, pyke, and numerous other abnormalities. I'm sure she is not meant to be OP, but Riot been kind of snoozing on the balance team lately

Its All Skillzz10/31/2019, 4:56:31 PM1 votes

judging by some clickbait videos on youtube her power looks pretty insane. Going full ap she has 100% crit chance anyways dont need ad items she can do just as much ap damage as ad with a lichbane gunblade nashor tooth and has the range higher than caitlyn with a rapidfire cannon. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YvZyR-6CWM Granted this pbe an he has an insane ammount of stacks but you can see the power she has throughout the game.

only luciano10/31/2019, 5:25:08 PM1 votes

I just feel like this is going be another case of Pyke . Trying to create a hybrid class AND keeping pro play in mind never really works out.