How to Play vs Assassins with Strong Waveclear?

Shapiro·9/18/2018, 3:16:48 AM·7 votes·5,125 views

I play a lot of mages; some with good waveclear and some without. I struggle a lot with assassins, but mostly ones with strong early waveclear; i.e Talon/Ekko. Zed's waveclear becomes quite good, but not at level 1.

Ekko and Talon always seem to push me in to tower no matter how hard I try to prevent it, and their pushing has such a low mana cost that I cannot keep up. To make it worse, on the off chance I push them in after they leave to roam, I can't roam since they could just be waiting in a bush to kill me.

Should I ever follow roams as a mage vs an assassin?

Also, why do some assassins just have ridiculous waveclear while other's don't? Kassadin's is very very poor until 6, Zed's isn't great until 3, but Talon, Ekko, and Leblanc are all pretty strong pushers at level 1.

9 Comments

Crimson Zeppelin9/18/2018, 3:28:59 AM4 votes

Talon and ekko zed never should be allowed to have wave control over mages. The mage should only be punished if their control is compromised, and there the strategy game of roam or to not should happen.

It sucks when assassins can waveclear, control a mage, and then produce a ultimatum.

Mylon Requiem9/18/2018, 4:26:12 AM3 votes

As a TL;DR direct response to your questions,

I play a lot of mages; some with good waveclear and some without. I struggle a lot with assassins, but mostly ones with strong early waveclear; i.e Talon/Ekko. Zed's waveclear becomes quite good, but not at level 1.

If Ekko/Talon/etc. are pushing you to tower, attempt to manipulate the wave so that it stands just outside your tower range so that you can safely force them to decide between approaching the wave to CS and fighting you where you are most safe. If they leave lane, relentlessly push and only leave lane to assist a fight in vision or over vision (contesting a control ward or protecting your jungler for example). Notably this should take priority over securing CS unless you cannot make it in time so that you do not give up advantages to an assassin for free.

Ekko and Talon always seem to push me in to tower no matter how hard I try to prevent it, and their pushing has such a low mana cost that I cannot keep up. To make it worse, on the off chance I push them in after they leave to roam, I can't roam since they could just be waiting in a bush to kill me.

Roam/follow in a situation where you are ganking towards your strong side where one or more of these advantages exists: Jungler nearby, support rotating, strong vision control already exists in the area, or because your cooldowns (Summoners/Ultimate/etc.) allow you to play aggressively according to matchup should you be caught out.

Also always consider the simple fact that if the enemy champion uses their ability on the wave instead of you, this is the window you should look to trade onto them and chunk enough HP to increase the risk of them continuing to waveclear without interaction. Some matchups demand different things: you go to war over the push or you try to pressure the other champion until you get it.

Also, why do some assassins just have ridiculous waveclear while other's don't? Kassadin's is very very poor until 6, Zed's isn't great until 3, but Talon, Ekko, and Leblanc are all pretty strong pushers at level 1.

Because champion diversity.

Playing against Assassins is unfortunately always a tricky, dangerous game, and the solutions are always multiple choice, but they all have one thing in common based on match-up:

PICK YOUR SPOTS (in other words, as Captain Jack Sparrow would say, wait for the opportune moment.)

Rather than provide specific matchup information (which for me is incredibly simple to obtain by watching pro VODS or other YT guide/tip videos involving the relevant champion picks, I'll suggest a few general rules and observations when facing assassin/high kill pressure lanes:

Consider the future consequences of a trade or potential opening for an all-in. Ideally, you make it consistently as hard as possible for the Assassin player to safely/routinely threaten you, which in general means you are almost always saving your crowd control threat spells for defense or when you or they are out of position or have an important ability of their own on cooldown.
Respect both what the enemy champion can do and then what your specific opponent is capable of; in other words, play the champion match-up first, and the player match-up second. I am of the opinion that it is much more important to simply try to learn intimately what a champion is capable of or to know what is possible in a given situation than it is to be needlessly afraid of or more respectful of a specific opponent than is necessary. This lets you recognize when they objectively make a mistake, and only afterward if they are able to outplay you under pressure should you mark them as "dangerous".
Lastly, do not show weakness to your opponent Nay, show confidence even in retreat. Showing respect to your opponent by playing safely is not the same as playing passively (for no reason). If you can meaningfully interact with an opponent and gradually create opportunities or advantages by doing so, then do so. Playing proactively and getting ganked (as the ancient Korean proverb suggests) is better than creating no pressure at all and bending over backwards to every move from your enemy.

Zerenza9/18/2018, 4:22:54 AM1 votes

Alright here's the deal, you just need to know when to take trades against the assassin.

Talon: After level 3, so he can't level 2 cheese you, if he uses his W(Rake) immediately punish him with some spells. Rake has a fairly long cooldown and without it he can't really kill you, as long as you don't get hit by it your free to bombard him with as many spells as you want pre-6.

Ekko: Levels 1+, ekko is easy, his Q(timewinder) is his main damage tool and his only reliably way to trade with you is to E+Q, if your out of range of his E and he throws out his Q, do exactly what i said to do with Talon, just bombard him with spells, poke him down. Even after level 6 your only real threat is the E+Q+W because he has the highest burst time of any other assassin in the early game. If you poke him down enough he won't be able to fight you or roam and his R won't heal as much when he eventually is forced to use it.

The general rule as a mage for roaming is to roam when you know your stronger than your opponent, this will be before level 9 usually, also only roam if your lane is pushing towards them or you've pushed them under tower, you don't want to miss 2 waves just to stop the enemy roam.

I might also suggest taking a couple games to play as Talon, Zed, Leblanc, Ahri, Ekko, Fizz and Akali just so you can get the feel for what they want to do to you, that way you can figure out how to stop them from doing it.

Fisher No Chains9/18/2018, 12:13:36 PM1 votes

LeBlanc’s waveclear is terribad until she gets Luden’s tho.

Rock MD9/18/2018, 9:37:10 PM1 votes

I'll break this down into 2 categories.

First is high kill pressure/100-0 potential (Talon/LB). Second is low kill potential (Ahri, Ekko)

Against your high kill pressures, you're going to want the waves to either freeze near tower or hit tower without bouncing. If it bounces that's fine but you want to immediately force a reset or the wave pushing your way. The rest of the time, you want to focus on killing the melee minions. Try to clear them so you're getting less damage on your tower. You should be able to last hit them safely. Try avoid taking too much poke while doing so. Your goal here is to try your best to keep them as preoccupied with the lane (and not roaming) as you can without dying. If they do roam past a certain point (probably around rank 3 on your waveclear spell) hardshove the lane so they're forced back or they miss minions.

Against low kill pressures, you want to kinda do the same thing but stay outside of your caster minions so they can't hit you too. These champs can't really 100-0 you early unless you make a positional error or are at 50% health. You're also going to trade more actively into these champions.

BobaFlautist9/18/2018, 9:42:03 PM1 votes

I always just shove back as best I can - mages with poor waveclear probably have better tools to actually duel assassins, but everyone else should be able to push at least almost as hard as the assassin. If they roam, unless you have vision in them, just ping up a storm and keep the wave pushing, you'll either get some tower damage and deny farm (which is easily worth 1 kill, but usually not more, or at least pin the enemy jungle mid and get a free back.

If they roam with their jungler and wipe it you can deny at least two waves of farm and force them to choose between protecting mid or securing dragon by shading top and keeping the push going.

Your goal is to mitigate their roam, not contest it (unless you're stronger than them). Remember that a two item mage contributes more than a three item assassin to most teamfights, so it's ok to let them win the farm game as long as they aren't keeping you too weak.