Can we balance out Normals please?

Śmøl ßirb·Jul 18, 2017·33 votes·2,008 views

I'm getting annoyed being paired with higher elo players when I'm trying to practice/learn a new champ. What do y'all want me to do, practice a new champion/role in ranked? If I want to learn from my mistakes by playing against higher elo players, I'd organize a scrim. I just think it's really unfair to all the low ranked players (eg bronze/silvers) to be getting paired up with numerous high diamond players. What are they learning form getting their teeth stomped in and then having these players just rub it in their faces? Nothing. Other than learning how many asshats there are out on league.

It never used to be this bad, Normals used to be fine, the matchmaking was great. Ever since you've changed how matchmaking in normals work, lower players are getting paired with players 3/4 ranks above their own. It's becoming quite unenjoyable. And I know I speak for a handful of other Summoners out there when I say this, because I've had people I play with also complain about how unfair/unfun it is.

Riot, please? </3

40 Comments

Sumpp1Jul 19, 20175 votes

Every time someone makes this thread, the white knights arrive with their "getting stomped is the best way to learn" -mantra. Which is total bullshit.

A bronze player isn't going to learn jackshit being forced to play against master/challenger players. A silver isn't going to learn much facing mid to high diamond players. There is nothing to learn getting stomped. A Silver 4 player will learn more facing a Gold 5 to 3 player in comparison to facing a diamond 2 player. I'd honestly argue that a Silver 4 player is going to learn more facing a Silver 1 player rather than a gold 3 player. See, when you face someone slightly above you, you actually have a chance at winning and a chance at understanding what they are doing.

It's like making a new chess player face off against grandmasters. The player isn't going to learn anything because they are going to be outplayed at every level and will have no idea why the grandmaster is doing the things they do. You are going to learn more and learn faster facing off against people slightly ahead of you opposed to facing people leaps and bounds better than you. You can't develop mechanics and general game sense when you are going to be destroyed no matter what you do. You will have no idea if what you are doing is right/wrong and you will have no idea you are making progress because everything you do is likely going to result in failure.

MrHaZeYoJul 18, 20174 votes

Idk, I think the best way to learn is getting thrown under the boss. Specially laning vs Diamonds as a Gold, it honestly helps me a lot although more times then not I totally get mollystomped.

Śmøl ßirbJul 18, 20177 votes

Whilst I agree with you that playing against higher players is indeed a great thing to learn from, when you're trying to learn something new it's not as great.

MrHaZeYoJul 18, 20175 votes

Still debatable, I get where you're coming from though.

Modern SupportJul 18, 20171 votes

Overall I'd like to see a complete overhaul in how smurf buster works the last time I leveled an account from 1-30 the matchmaker would create some pretty unfair games.

Normals really don't have any incentive to play them so a lot of the times you end up with players having low normal MMR but high ranked MMR. The only real way to fix it would to make it take some of your ranked MMR into account when matching the game.

http://imgur.com/a/iJP4Q Imgur album of my level 1-30 experience no RP

In one of the games the average MMR of the game was 2100~ but it matched my team with a 900-950 MMR player to balance the game out in a normal match since you incur penalties through smurf buster.

I'm currently leveling a Latin America North account.
http://i.imgur.com/BMnMbTX.jpg

Smurfbuster completely breaks MMR past a certain point 30~ minute average q times for both of the accounts I leveled past level 20. The reason why the Q times are long in low level is because it refuses to match you versus level 30 as a pre-30

GULAG 4 UJul 18, 20172 votes

I've seen a level 25 player get queue'd with an NA challenger today rofl.

Sun Wu RyuumokuJul 18, 20171 votes

i would like to have choice and be matched with higher elo like diams... than silver, bronzos & lv30

TargonJul 18, 20171 votes

I'm in Silver 3, and this week, I've played with/against people as low as level 19 and as high as Plat 2 in normals.

Nea104Jul 18, 20171 votes

In my opinion you were just unlucky; it was your "unlucky" time.

I mean, look at everyone's match history, at least under plat. How many games are balanced? About 10-5-3% (1/10, 1/20, 1/30) :D So, could be a matchmaking system intented to give you the best game possibile so flawed? In one of the most played games in the world? Of course not :D

Point is, there is (nearly) always one stronger team, and one far worse. You go, on average, one time in the (nearly) surely winning team, one time in the losing one. Why? 50% ratio assured; plus, faster queues and cheaper coding, I guess.

Śmøl ßirbJul 18, 20171 votes

Unlucky? Every game I've played has at the very minimum one extremely higher ranked player in it.

If you consider it, and reverse roles. I'm sure there are some Diamond players out there who are getting tilted playing with bronze and under 30 accounts as well, because of the major skill discrepancy.

There will always be one stronger team, and one weaker team. But that should be because 5 players of relatively the same elo are competing against one another, not one bronze + silver team being pitted against three diamonds and two plats and just getting trashed.

RalanrJul 18, 20171 votes

I have been noticing a lot more rank 7 mastery players in lanes where I'm trying to learn someone.

HaIlMonitorJul 18, 20171 votes

That is because 1 tricks go full tilt in ranked and have to show off how good they are in norms lol.

StairCasexdJul 18, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I have been noticing a lot more rank 7 mastery players in lanes where I'm trying to learn someone.

It's especially worse when it's a far more experienced player who has well above double the CS of everyone else

RalanrJul 18, 20171 votes

Triple when it's a rank 7 Riven.

Riven is the only champion to make me think I have ptsd (not really) when I fight her.

EndlessSorcererJul 18, 20173 votes

You haven't experienced suffering until you try to lane as Sion against a competent Riven or Darius.

It is a hellish experience.

RalanrJul 18, 20171 votes

Against Darius I just don't even bother walking far into lane. I pray to god he doesn't freeze and farm up whatever I can with my E max.

With a doran's ring I can get a lot of CS with one E.

Hyrum GraffJul 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I have been noticing a lot more rank 7 mastery players in lanes where I'm trying to learn someone.

There's no way for Riot to use this for matchmaking, though, because they don't know what champion you're going to play.

Also, rank 7 becomes more common as time goes on and people get more rank 7s.

RalanrJul 19, 20171 votes

Oh I know. It's more bad luck on my part that I'm basically fighting mains on champions I'm trying to learn.

GayFluffyUnicornJul 18, 20171 votes

Funny thing you say higher elos are asshats. The last few days i played a ton of normals (compared to the amount i usually play) with lower elo friends (bronze, silver,gold and one level 10) so naturally i get mixed against a lot of silvers/bronze with one high plat or some d5 to balance me out. Apart from the generic D5 dirtbag almost every single toxic person so far has been a low elo and specifically i have been the target of toxicity. Be it me being "boosted" because i try to learn a champ and die 10 times to learn how far i can go or being a "no lifer" "tryhard" etc. because i won lane. So just what i want to say is both sides are pretty much the same in being "asshats" except for the part that low elos are much more likely to rub it into the higher elos face if they killed them or even won lane/game. The best you can do: pick a champ, play the game and just don't look up your opponents? What are u trying to learn playing against a bronze? How good you are on the new picked up champ just to get stomped with it in ranked? Appreciate you have the possibility to play against better plays and learn from it.

Śmøl ßirbJul 18, 20172 votes

Sorry, didn't realize I had said 'All higher elo players are asshats'. Lemme rephrase - Other than learning how many asshats, regardless of elo, there are out on league.

I'm not trying to play against bronzies, I'm just trying to play against people of similar elo, so that we both can learn, and we both can have fun. Trying to learn how to last hit or control the wave is pretty hard when you have a higher ranked player up in your face, stomping all over it because they, for whatever reason, decided that playing their mastery 7 champion in normals against a bunch of lower tier players would be fun.

ÂFRÏCÂN GØDJul 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Funny thing you say higher elos are asshats. The last few days i played a ton of normals (compared to the amount i usually play) with lower elo friends (bronze, silver,gold and one level 10) so naturally i get mixed against a lot of silvers/bronze with one high plat or some d5 to balance me out. Apart from the generic D5 dirtbag almost every single toxic person so far has been a low elo and specifically i have been the target of toxicity. Be it me being "boosted" because i try to learn a champ and die 10 times to learn how far i can go or being a "no lifer" "tryhard" etc. because i won lane. So just what i want to say is both sides are pretty much the same in being "asshats" except for the part that low elos are much more likely to rub it into the higher elos face if they killed them or even won lane/game. The best you can do: pick a champ, play the game and just don't look up your opponents? What are u trying to learn playing against a bronze? How good you are on the new picked up champ just to get stomped with it in ranked? Appreciate you have the possibility to play against better plays and learn from it.

i agree with this also. i was plat last season n gold this season. no, i do NOT consider that high elo at all but when in games with silvers and bronze, whether on your team or the enemy team, they all flame u for every little thing, calling you boosted or saying how your mmr is fukd because you are in a game with them. what most of them dont understand is ranked mmr isnt norms mmr and i personally dont take normals that serious so me dying doesnt mean shit to me in norms. when you do too good, they flame u and riot, when you do poorly, they flame u and call u boosted. higher elo players honestly cant win for losing and lower elo players use mmr as an excuse. i know ppl who are bronze that are actually good but cant get out of bronze. i know ppl who i feel dont deserve to be in gold and above but you dont know who is actually boosted, who is getting carried or who is just having a bad day.. i just play a game and move on, i dont try to justify my good or bad gameplay on another person, especially an opponent. also from experience, almost everyone in low elo talk shiit and are so bad versus higher elo talk from pure ego but still have a higher knowledge of mechanics. low elo players just make excuses and dont even learn from their mistakes which is why they are in low elo.

FilDaFunkJul 18, 20171 votes

You seriously cannot comment on the ranks of players in normals - that's the whole point. If you want to practise a new champ, isn't this a good environment anyone? You're facing skilled opponents, so you could also learn from them.

Śmøl ßirbJul 18, 20174 votes

Tell me how I'm supposed to learn how to control and manipulate waves, for example, when I have some higher ranking person in my face, shoving me around.

I'm not here trying to practice how to play from behind, I'm here trying to practice something totally different, but I can't practice anything other than 'how to play from behind', because I am getting consistently pitted against higher ranking players. I'm not talking about a couple of ranks here, I'm talking about at least two entire divisions.

Weasel KenseiJul 19, 20171 votes

Bots? Customs?

If you want to learn wave management, getting attacked while doing it is part of the game.

If you dont want them to shut you down, play customs and set the AI level to something your comfortable with and practice there.

Honestly just do your best, and if you lose, your normals MMR will fall to a level where you will be able to do what you want.

Śmøl ßirbJul 19, 20172 votes

There's only so much you can learn from playing bots.

Getting attacked is part of the game, yes, but getting roflstomped isn't helping me learn anything.

Please explain how a level 27 account, whom I just played with, has MMR equal to people who've been playing league for years? It's not fair to the people whose team they're on, and it's not fair to that particular player themselves.

CaveslothJul 18, 20171 votes

It'd be nice if they had a game lobby where you can only pick champs you have below mastery 3 or something like that.

Weasel KenseiJul 19, 20171 votes

Thats not what you want.

What you want is an individual champ MMR lobby.

You may be a Bronze 1 Tristana trying to git gud, but you at least arnt ruining your Plat 5 you play at with 4 different jg champs. Best part is with an individual champ MMR lobby your opponets will be around your MMR in most cases and the troll shithead clowns first timing x will probably NOT be on your team.

CaveslothJul 19, 20172 votes

While it would be amazing if normals matched you based on your MMR on the character you're playing, that's way more work that I'm sure Riot is willing to do. I'd settle for being able to try a new champ without it say matching me against a plat player, playing on their mastery 7 main that counters me. There is nothing you are going to learn in that situation other than, A. I'm never buying this character EVER. or B. Maybe I should just quit playing League altogether.

Śmøl ßirbJul 19, 20171 votes

Exactly this.

ForFoxSakesJul 19, 20172 votes

How the fuck is that even a practical suggestion?! Are you supposed to prepick your champ before you get into queue for it to match you up? Think a little

CaveslothJul 19, 20171 votes

It would have to be coded as lobby where you can only pick from your characters that are below a certain mastery threshold (2 or 3 should suffice), and that really wouldn't be that hard to code, same as it is now, just lockout anything above the threshold in your character pool. Weasel Kensei's on the other hand... that would have to be coded so the game matches you with your teammates, you select characters, then wait for it to match you with opponents which would result in insane que times while it tries to match each of you with similar opponents, or you as you said you pick your character, the game tries to match you with similar teammates and opponents, which would be more doable than the first one, but still pretty complicated.

ForFoxSakesJul 20, 20171 votes

That doesnt solve anything when people have multiple accounts then play on champs theyre already good at but mastery says theyre first timing it, and the fact that gold+ people can play on fresh champs better than lower elo players who are adept at their champs

Then what if a champ they have high mastery on gets reworked of changed and they want to test it out, but hey nope, cant do that because of catering to those who are tired of getting their asses handed to them

Adding pool restrictions to segregate into another group of players is stupid

CaveslothJul 20, 20171 votes

Well of course they couldn't completely fix this for people using alt accounts or higher elo players just like they can't completely solve the problem of smurfs ruining new players games, such problems will always exist, but having this would still make it easier on people trying out new champs instead of having them completely ruin a game for 4 other people because they got destroyed by someone playing mastery 7 main as I'm sure we've all seen happen. People are quick to blame that player, instead of Riot who doesn't provide a way for the player to try out a champ a in real game situation since there is huge gap in between learning how to play a new character in a bots game or practice mode, and facing actual thinking human beings.

As for the champ rework, they'd have to deal with that on its own basis, and that's been discussed elsewhere as being a problem they already need to solve for other reasons let alone this. Honestly with how much some of the reworks change a champion, I really think they should reset their mastery to zero when they rework them, and then give them some kind of legacy skin or badge or icon or w/e to compensate them, but that's a whole 'nother discussion.

Weasel KenseiJul 19, 20171 votes

You do realize....

That higher elo players want to practice stuff too right?

They play stuff they dont main, and practice champs all the time... IN normals.

Yeah... its almost like their normals MMR isnt as good as their ranked MMR, and they get matched with lower elo players cause they arent on their tryhard champs.

When I que in normals its either to get a chest, or practice a champ. If you want people of similar skill, thats probably your ranked MMR opponents, who also probably have a similar level of champ experience give or take. In normals you may face off against someone who is of higher skill level, but with even less champ experience. If someone who is as good as you are is playing 10 games with 3 champs they have little experince on, they may fall in MMR... in normals... what you want isnt obtainable.

If people of higher elo are tanking their normals MMR because theyre practicing too, then they will fall down to wherever you are or even lower. What exactly do you want Riot to do about them losing games practicing?

Śmøl ßirbJul 19, 20171 votes

But the thing is, around 90% of the time, these higher elo players are NOT practicing. They're bringing in their level 7, top tier champion, solely for the 'satisfaction' of stomping these lower elo players.

I'm fully aware that these higher elo players want to practice. I'm not telling them to not play normals, I'm just asking Riot if there's anything that can be done about this because it's rather disheartening to get these Diamond + on their main champions consistently in normal games. Whilst our team are paired with some random account under 30, or a bronze player trying to better themselves.

Explain to me how a fresh, level 27 account that has only been playing for a few weeks, has the same MMR as a Plat / Diamond who has been playing for a few years with an mix of normals and ranked. It's not fun for us to be paired with them, and it's not fun for them to be paired against diamond players when they've just started league and don't even know bare basics yet.

Weasel KenseiJul 19, 20171 votes

Trust me, I know how you feel.

Like I said, when I go to normals its for practice or to earn a chest on a champ.

I end up with the AD bot lane Soraka with Master Yi support while Im trying to earn an S on Amumu... The enemy team has a tryhard comp and they all have a stun. Normals is a shitshow. Those tryhard players in normals may aslo be using it to "warm up" after not playing for a week. The rest of the time they may be feeding their ass off playing Jinx top lane to troll people in normals.

The only thing Riot could do is link their normals and ranked MMR... then, you would suffer the "hard to practice" issue in normals. You would be playing a champ your new at against people of similar skill level who still may not be using champs they dont know how to play.

The problem is people perform very very VERY differently on champs they have less experience on.... look, let me put it this way... a lot of people play this game. Not enough people play it at the same time for Riots match making to pair up people of similar skill level, who will also play champs of similar experience... what champ you play and how experienced you are with them is decided after the match is made.

As for levels below 30, simply a problem of there not being enough sub level 30 players to match them with unless they want to wait in 8 minute que times. It sucks, but getting into an established game and being new is tuff. I agree with people who say Riot doesnt do enough to get newbs into the game, and it is often awful for them. That said, there really isnt anything Riot can do because even if they leveled out the normals somehow, there will always be people willing to troll 5 games straight for whatever amusement that gives them, then tryhard stomp people playing a champ for the second time.

Last note, I started this game in the late part of season 4, and this season has been the strangest thing as I pick off meta supports people whine and cry more than Iv ever seen and will even dodge games in normals if they dont like my pick enough... there is some strange new breed of tryhards in normals.

Im not being a dick when I say this, but your only hope may be a second account where you play champs you want to practice on in ranked. Its part of why so many people have smurfs. Theyre Gold level support, mid, bot, but want to test their jg skills a bit more without tanking their MMR. So they make a smurf to play jg champs in ranked.

Look, I want people to enjoy the game and have fun. I feel like you should get to grow in an environment that supports that, but people exist, and a significant portion of those people are fucked up assholes. Im telling you, Riot cant do what you want.

Hèntaî Jul 19, 20171 votes

You could always use practice tool :^)

RandomoniumJul 19, 20171 votes

What's even more hilarious is when the diamond players are playing one of their mains in normals and just constantly spams their mastery emote. Gotta love first timing a champion only to run into a level 7 diamond riven main.

ForFoxSakesJul 19, 20171 votes

It was never this bad because there was only really 2 SR modes via solo/duo ranked and norms. Blind was mostly for new people and usually disliked without role picks, and the pure 5v5 team was a niche that few dabbled in as well

Now that pool of players is further split with the flex 5s that no one likes yet RITO keeps hammering away at how we need to play it