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Analysis of New vs. Old Veigar Using Some Math

gamezzs·2/26/2015, 3:44:15 AM·9 votes·2,423 views

So after playing Veigar a bit on 5.4 I got a strong feeling that he was outputting a lot less damage compared to before his compensations for the removal of DFG. So made a quick excel chart to figure out how much damage Viegar can do.

SETUP AND ASSUMPTIONS:

General Assumptions: I ignored runes and masteries and effects of magic resist to simplify the math and analysis. Also I'm ignoring the effects on his laning since it hard to quantify, I personally believe laning is harder and less safe, but for this analysis I'm only considering the damage numbers.

The number I kept hearing from Riot to justify some of the Veigar changes was this "500AP at 20min" stat. Personally I don't think this number is realistic but I ran with it and made his passive AP make up the difference to 500AP after factoring in expected items at 20min.

For new Veigar at 20min I assumed he would have a Morellonomicon, needlessly large rod, and blasting wand. To get 500 AP his passive would need to have 300 AP; very wishful thinking. So I made a second column with a more conservative estimate of Viegar having 150 passive AP at 20min; same item build.

For Pre 5.4 Veigar I assumed he had a DFG, blasting wand, and amp tome(Working to a void staff) at 20min. I also assumed he had 50 passive AP(might be an overestimate).

Then I made some assumptions about ability levels for Veigar; I assumed he would be level 11 at 20min. For New Veigar I assumed he had Level 5 Q, Level 3 W, Level 1 E, and Level 2 R. For Old Veigar: Level 2 Q, Level 5 W, Level 2 E, and Level 2 R. I made a second column for Old Veigar that assumes Q max level since I've seen either Q or W maxed first in the past.

Next I calculated Veigar's possible damage output.

RESULT: http://i.imgur.com/9AR5eti.png?1

ANALYSIS:

Some things to note: When considering Veigar the numbers to consider are what you use when trying to bring an enemy from 100-0; this is both Riot's and my vision of Veigar's theme as a burst mage: "you can't reduce a 100-0 burst mage to 100-20".

For this reason when I analyze Old vs New Veigar, I compare Old Veigar's DFG Burst Full Combo and New Veigar's Q+R Burst. The reason for this is you almost certainly will not be able to hit W on Veigar because of the E cast delay. From playing New Veigar in mid I can say with confidence that unless you are playing against a remarkably bad player you will not hit the stun 1v1 in mid when going a kill. Hence you'll probably have to try to kill someone using just your Q and R. With the old stun old Veigar would be able to hit everything provided you land the E(which imo is not as simple as people make it sound).

Taking this in consideration we have Veigar's 100-0 damage:

Old: ~1970

New: ~1200-1400

New Viegar is missing 29-39% of his old potential damage output!!!

An interesting note is that when we take a more realistic estimate of New Veigar's AP, assuming you get someone stunned and hit W you're still going to do less damage than OLD Veigar with DFG.

Again I took several assumptions when making this and feel free to call me out on any mistakes(there are no doubt some) and I can redo my math to see what happens.

tl;dr Net result of 5.4 Patch is when Veigar attempts to 100-0 someone he does it with ~35% less damage, i.e. not going to 100-0 someone.

10 Comments

DevilishMetal2/26/2015, 3:54:14 AM2 votes

Finally, hard math. I really appreciate someone willing to take the time to do this, so thank you.

However, I would like to point out that more stacks is going to ramp up the amount of items you can buy and the level you reach due to higher CS. D'you think that could be factored in?

Also, in terms of your conclusion, Riot's goal was not to give back his full DFG damage, because said damage was the problem in the first place. That may be incorrect, but it's just my opinion :)

1Rival2/26/2015, 6:41:16 AM2 votes

Its up to Riot and the testing team to decide if a champion has to change its theme to preserve the health of the game.

The matter at hand was that DFG allowed high burst mages to 100-0 enemies without much counter play. Therefore, the removal of DFG.

With the removal of 100-0 ideals, Riot found a way for him to be seen as a "really hard hitter". Instead of focusing all damages on 1 target, he can nuke an entire team from 100 to 40 in a relatively short amount of time.

Wullf2/26/2015, 10:28:21 AM2 votes

My friend played Vegiar without DFG many times before this change. Still was able to 100-0 enemies.

I do agree that ne Veigar needs some tweaks but claiming that he deals 35% less damage and therofre he cannot instakill someone is foolish if that 35% aditional damage is overkill.

Damage is not a problem here.

1Rival2/26/2015, 5:53:50 AM1 votes

Okay,

May I see the math of damage dealt to multiple enemies at once?

Stephenizgod2/27/2015, 1:36:51 AM1 votes

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1743113338/206176227?tab=builds&participant=3

At 20 min my friend had 700-750 AP (i cant remember exactly) with only item 3165 and item 3108. I know he has like full AP rune pages and he was focusing entirely on farming his Q, but still its not unrealistic. He didnt even get a rabadons until 25min.

You say you can not hit the stun does not mean it is impossible. Its easy to do once you learn how to hit the stun, my friend was having absolutely no issue whatsoever hitting the stun nor the W even without the stun. I was always doing it pretty successfully on the PBE too. Instead of using it offensively he mostly just used it to zone or force them into hitting his W.