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Sion Late Game

MisterGuy·3/10/2016, 6:04:18 AM·3 votes·2,608 views

Let's first talk about his damage. Sion's late game damage is very underwhelming. I know he has decent CC abilities, but it's not that reliable, they can be easily dodged. Can we compensate that with more damage? Sion's current late game is based off his CC and his tankiness, and since his CC is underwhelming, shouldn't he have something else? Can we bring back his enrage ability, where it gives him bonus AD? I was thinking of making the AD scale with his health (I know it sounds OP but hear me out). Sion's only AD ability is his Q and his ult. His ult ad ratio is pretty low, and his Q can only be cast pretty much half way if you want a guaranteed hit. I know Sion get's infinite health, but it doesn't really matter, if champs just buy blade of the ruined king or Lord Dominik's regards. I know building armor is essential on Sion, but if Sion's late game depends on his health stacking, then can't other tanks just do the same thing, but with items. There could be some balancing, but I think it can work out. Come on guys, there is juggernaut in his official name, can't we give him some extra late game damage?

Secondly his passive. Sion's passive is very bad late game, I can't do anything, even to carries. Can we give his passive some armor penetration? It can scale off his level, so it won't really matter early game, but it would help a lot late game. Now for the biggest change, can we make him immune to CC during his passive and immune to healing debuffs. I know its very OP, but it can be compensated by nerfing his movement speed during his passive, so he'll need to rely more on his death surge. OR we could make his death surge cleanse any CC/heal de-buffs.

Please consider these buffs, Sion got nothing but nerfs after his rework, with only one buff to his Q, and he isn't played often anymore. I think these buffs will really help Sion build into juggernauts if he wants. Whenever I build juggernaut sion, I become a really squishy, but healthy guy.

Thank You.

20 Comments

Dar Raksada3/10/2016, 11:04:44 AM4 votes

[{quoted}](name=NICE GUY BRO,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vs9YEbfj,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-03-10T06:04:18.477+0000)

Let's first talk about his damage. Sion's late game damage is very underwhelming. I know he has decent CC abilities, but it's not that reliable, they can be easily dodged. Can we compensate that with more damage? Sion's current late game is based off his CC and his tankiness, and since his CC is underwhelming, shouldn't he have something else? Can we bring back his enrage ability, where it gives him bonus AD? I was thinking of making the AD scale with his health (I know it sounds OP but hear me out). Sion's only AD ability is his Q and his ult. His ult ad ratio is pretty low, and his Q can only be cast pretty much half way if you want a guaranteed hit. I know Sion get's infinite health, but it doesn't really matter, if champs just buy blade of the ruined king or Lord Dominik's regards. I know building armor is essential on Sion, but if Sion's late game depends on his health stacking, then can't other tanks just do the same thing, but with items. There could be some balancing, but I think it can work out. Come on guys, there is juggernaut in his official name, can't we give him some extra late game damage?

Secondly his passive. Sion's passive is very bad late game, I can't do anything, even to carries. Can we give his passive some armor penetration? It can scale off his level, so it won't really matter early game, but it would help a lot late game. Now for the biggest change, can we make him immune to CC during his passive and immune to healing debuffs. I know its very OP, but it can be compensated by nerfing his movement speed during his passive, so he'll need to rely more on his death surge. OR we could make his death surge cleanse any CC/heal de-buffs.

Please consider these buffs, Sion got nothing but nerfs after his rework, with only one buff to his Q, and he isn't played often anymore. I think these buffs will really help Sion build into juggernauts if he wants. Whenever I build juggernaut sion, I become a really squishy, but healthy guy.

Thank You.

As someone who has been maining Sion jungle at platinum level since before champ mastery released,* I think these changes would push him over the edge. Especially if they would all go through. I don't think Sion needs individual changes, though a revert on w's activation time would be appreciated. Sion can get very tanky in lategame, though of course damage is over the top right now and ad carries may be a bit too good at tank shredding.

let's examine the changes one by one (am on a mobile phone so spelling/formatting might be off)

Sion's late game damage is very underwhelming. I know he has decent CC abilities, but it's not that reliable, they can be easily dodged. Can we compensate that with more damage? Sion's current late game is based off his CC and his tankiness, and since his CC is underwhelming,

More damage would mean he'd be over the top if he hits his skills, one of the things separating the good Sions from the mediocre Sions is the ability to land use skills, most notably his (charged) q and r. If you land both skills you'll do decent damage. This maked him great for both peel, and diving deep. As fulltank you can zone most adcs for a while, and even if you die they have to kite you or die. I've gotten doubles because people didn't kite my passive. And if they kite they lose more damage on your team. If you need more damage just get titanic/steraks. Sion, despite having juggernaut in his title, is not a juggernaut, his design is more like a pure tank.

Sion's passive is very bad late game, I can't do anything, even to carries. Can we give his passive some armor penetration?

While it's true that his passive often doesn't do much damage, it's not about the damage you do, but about the threat you still pose. If people just stand there getting pummeld you'll do a good bit of damage. Opponents will need to kite/use cc on//burst you, making you an even better tank for your team by being a threat even in death. If it did more damage in the form if arpen it would mean meler champs without ally/ground target dashes would just get punished for killing sion. Making him cc immunr during his passive would be grossly op, unless you nerf his movespeed so much that he's useless anyway. Buffing his passive in the ways you suggested would require heavy nerfs elsewhere. You can use active items during your passive, so if you really want you could build bruiser sion wirh mercurial to get rid of some cc.

*this doesn't mean I'm a balance expert, but it does show I'm invested in Sion/am biased towards him.

Lovelle3/10/2016, 3:09:53 PM1 votes

You have to build damage to deal damage late game as Sion. That's why his W scales infinitely, so that he can build high tier offensive stuff that most tanky champions can't afford to fit into their builds. You should never build more than 2 health items on Sion unless they have damage attached to them. Also, you should never have more than 3 defensive items (it's diminishing returns and damage far outscales defense in this game).

You should be building towards items like these past mid game. item 3031 item 3748 item 3072 item 3147 item 3142

Sion isn't like Malphite or Rammus, who can just stack defense and still be a damage threat past early-mid game. He doesn't get damage for building defense. Without building a significant amount of damage your passive will be useless and you won't be focused. If you're not being focused then you're not doing your job correctly.

Before asking for buffs to Sion, you should at least understand how he scales.

Ralanr3/10/2016, 3:52:01 PM1 votes

Sion's early game strength despite his late game fantasy is honestly incredibly surprising for me. I'm just surprised how easy it is to bully other laners, even bullies like Jayce. Though I prefer him in the jungle (since I don't have to worry about CS).

As someone who normally builds straight tank Sion, there is one build I like to call my Juggernaut build: item 3930 item 3748 item 3071 item 3022 Boots and a tanky item (item 3742, item 3102, or item 3026 for shits and giggles) combined with Strength of the Ages.

You won't be as durable as full tank Sion. But you'll farm immensely and deal a surprisingly high amount of damage (once outdamaged the entire enemy team). Hell you could swap out the last tanky item for item 3124 and see what happens.

The strength of this build is that your autos become more powerful as you weave them further with your CC.

MisterGuy3/10/2016, 5:54:18 PM1 votes

Thanks for the replies. I will take your advice but I still think sion needs some type of buff.

Olath Quortek3/12/2016, 3:47:51 PM1 votes

Honestly bro Sion is in too good of a spot right now to receive any kind of buffs (except maybe some QoL buffs?) without compensation nerfs to go with them; They certainly shouldn't buff his damage at the cost of his tankiness. Yes his abilities can be dodged but they already have high bases and ratios to make up for that...

There's a couple of problems with what you suggest for his passive and they both essentially stem from the same misconception. You want his passive to be about dealing damage but that's really not the point of the passive and it shouldn't be the point of his passive. The point of his passive is that it allows him a source of zone control and disruption after death... The damage is a bonus... Sion dies and he gets a whole new health bar, good fixed AS, bonus %health on-hit damage, 100% lifesteal and a speed boost... granted that's at the cost of a rapidly decreasing health bar and a delay while he "dies" but this is all while he's dead... Most champs don't get anything while they're dead... If we gave Sion any more his dead form would be better than his living (less dead?) form... XD

All of that is to say that he shouldn't get Armor Pen and CC immunity because damage isn't the point. Why would I want people to use their CC on me less anyways? I am a tank... YES, please CC my corpse instead of my carries! XD His passive gives him a source of zone control, forces opponents to react to it and probably soaks up some more damage and CC for your team in addition to occasionally dealing out some serious damage and picking up kills.

I'm sorry Sion isn't a Juggernaut for you but I'm not sorry that he is a badass tank for me! >:3

Knight SoIaire 3/12/2016, 3:52:47 PM1 votes

just no

sion is op ... i dont know how one can think otherwise its not a rare sight to see a sion who didnt build any offense yet dealt more damage than his adc/midlaner or whoever was expeccted to deal the most damage in his team

ofc due to being fair shich is rare in riot's history sion doesnt feel broken ... but he is indeed a top tier demolisher

Icestar11863/13/2016, 3:29:16 AM1 votes

Titanic Hydra

You're welcome

Marshmallow Wolf3/10/2016, 8:00:21 AM1 votes

I just hate how his w and e got repeatedly nerfed base damage

also, his hp per level is terrible.

Honestly, I feel he's a stronger jungler than toplaner because jungle monsters give him a lot more maximum hp (almost 100 per clear), also so you can have a more damaging bruiser or fighter top

DeloricVI3/14/2016, 5:00:54 PM1 votes

item 3022 <- Hi, I'm a good item. You might consider boying me.

This is a good item on Sion, mainly because it's a good alternative to Warmog's; it gives you only slightly less HP (something your passive will make up for) and, with its new build path, can be a bit more helpful in lane, since you can double down on the health stacking. It also gives you some offensive stats, and a slow to increase the effectiveness of your passive, if need be, and can be overall not bad now. It still is kind of pricey, but it's worth it, imho

item 3748 <- Hi, my damage scales indefinitely on Sion.

This thing is good for clearing waves and the active can hit more people than you think with some pretty op damage, especially late game when you've stacked your HP to levels of near-absurdity.

As you gain more HP after you reach full build, you may want to consider buying more offensive items in order to be a little more relevant, but remember to not overdo it. I may only consider swapping out one item in your final build, and remember that you have Titanic Hydra. You may want to avoid dampening the extra damage you get from it.