New Thornmail is just a shadow nerf / class rebalancing?

Cujo·7/13/2017, 1:54:01 PM·2 votes·566 views

Thornmail has had it's damage reduced to ~1/4th. Even when you pull focus and Grievous Wounds is consistently being applied it won't be mitigating nearly as much life stealing either. That's on top of the heal reduction only being applied to the subsequent attacks after the first within just 1 second after a 15% attack speed reduction. That is so forgiving to marksmen.

It never even needed Grievous Wounds in the first place. It just worked similarly but it had several times more damage and was far more reliable.

Yet Riot stated they intended to help the front line with this? Was it the 250 HP and the piddly 25 base damage supposed to help draw in the appeal? That's a base damage so low it now competes Sunfire Cape's Damage and Fresh Blood for the least amount offered. Corrupting Potion could offer just as much if not more sustained damaged. I do understand that it's not all about that but damn it's just not an appealing number. Meanwhile you got a long list mage and carry items that offer damage at least 3x that, up to 10x more. A handful of those are actually cheaper than this reworked Thornmail (and generally all built by champions expected to have a naturally higher gold income than tanky melee's).

The loss in damage isn't just to enemy players. It's a huge drop in wave clearing ability. That damage use to help out a lot. Not just for the user either, but for their team as well. Especially as the game progresses against late game minion waves. This was an decent strength for champions lacking wave clear and players filling in certain roles. A decent trade off for what Thornmail alternatively lacked in. At least when they chunked Sunfire Cape's damage to enemies they made sure it kept it's uses elsewhere.

*** I really disliked how Riot failed to acknowledge this huge drop in damage in the patch notes ** *

They will, however, give Guardian Angel 40 AD with a 2400g price tag.

Thornmail's 600g more expensive. The original price made it a much more unique and flexible item. It used to be able blend in to builds at different times for different reasons. For as many reasons there would be to get it, I feel like there were just as much not too. It came with some risks. It's power generally descaled and fights could often wind up taking a turn that caused it's strengths to be largely ignored. It was also among other armor items that were much more popular. Pushing up it's price forces it to compete with those items. And with how much it's lost in comparison to it's former self and the questionable effectiveness of even the Grievous Wounds component...

Like a lot of other items, Thornmail used to bring the chance to make an opponent consider their own itemization. This is a sort of 'conversation' or interaction I thought we were supposed to celebrate. (I think I heard a game dev describe it as a sort of 'conversation' once, hope that made sense)

Another issue I'd like to bring up about this: We've lost a very unique item. This new version of Thornmail is quite bland and similar to others. Why do all tank items have to be so expensive now? Pretty much the only items that aren't, have no damage and are intended as a purely tank or utility/support item. So, even if it is just a little bit of a loss in variety, just for the sake variety it's another reason I'm sad to see it go out like that. There's kind of only Wit's End left now in that sort of category and likely only because of how accessible it can be to marksmen. Meanwhile, champions outside of the tank or bruiser class have a natural access to tons of items with various levels and types of defensiveness (anything; damage reduction, sustain, resistances, health shields) that allow them (sometimes even meant) to specifically play against and punish an enemy's role, strengths, abilities, and reliances. But those also offer excellent damage to them and plenty of them are actually quite cheaper than Thornmail now (and generally all built by champions expected to have a naturally higher gold income than tanks or bruisers).

So, why does there have to be such a narrow selection when it comes to offensive choices for tanky melees? Because right now, it looks like there really aren't any defensive items with decent offensive properties. It's more like there's room for one expensive offensive item that has health and was probably patched into being THE staple pick for you. With one or two other possible choices depending on the situation. Even then though, going for that second item can often be too risky or expensive. But when it comes to finding a little something extra? It seems more often then not the tanky items that could bolster your damage and give you some small edge just don't make sense. Either not to the situation or there's a cousin item that's core to your character.

I don't want that. I don't want just the one, maybe two, offensive items my champion can afford to get because the rework spotlight said they'd only reasonably have room for them. That or you're stuck in the kind off meta you're likely to unlucky with or wind's up getting patched out because Riot said it was too strong in ways they didn't intend.

This and other recent changes show me something that certainly isn't about giving tanks help in their role. It seems like it's class balancing. It feels like champions are increasingly pigeonholed into a very distinct item pool that often has little room for anything extra. It certainly seemed like relief to ADC's. Who knows, the lack of a decent Thornmail could even lead them to push the balance even more in future patch's. (tinfoil? idk, worth mentioning I think)

I say all of this with their direct comments from the patch notes in mind: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-714-notes > Against champions and teams that lean on heavy healing and regeneration effects, tanky melee types sometimes feel like they’re actually hurting their team by serving as convenient health batteries. While mages have Morellonomicon and other carries have Executioner’s Calling to help focus down healing-oriented threats, we wanted to make sure that melee champs can at least force high-sustain damage dealers to look elsewhere for their healing >

Yeah, I don't see that at all. Thornmail went from an item that said, "OH YEAH? Bring it!" to saying, "ehh, please don't... don't." I mean really, why should tanky melee types be worried about having the same status effect that's a staple for mages and carries have access too again? Look at how so much of the conversation around the new Thornmail is about how it actually deals so little damage now. It's certainly not going to "force high-sustain damage dealers to look elsewhere". As if this item is ever gonna 'make sure' of that. It's already stated heal reduction is in high amounts for both mages and carries. Warden's Mail and all sorts of attack speed reduction have always been here. Heck, people still got shredded with the old Thornmail.

The old Thornmail ACTUALLY could force them to look elsewhere though. Even on own it's with great timing. If a carry wasn't prepared you could literally stare them down while they were forced to only use their non-AA cooldown's and fall back for help or minion lifestealing. Later on, if you had built Thornmail advantageously enough, it could at least mean a carry essentially wouldn't lifesteal off you (or if they did it was minimal). That's a decent tool to help you to try and take them on with your own kit. Or maybe you forced them to decide on a hexdrinker when they would have otherwise preferred another item. Maybe all you do is deplete their Bloodthirster shield from the portion of a team fight that had nothing to focus on but you. That alone is also a tool for you team when they can pivot towards attack them.

They really should have mentioned how they removed the offensive strength from this item before emphasizing they meant for it to be a team support item. No longer a tool to help overcome champions with such high damage output and sustain. Or, ya know, a cool item i really liked... :(

3 Comments

Shuyin1787/13/2017, 2:15:10 PM1 votes

I dont understand why they would give it the 15% attack speed drop, that contradicts what Thronmail is for.

C9 Squeeky 7/13/2017, 11:53:45 PM1 votes

It's a pointless post considering all you do is play ARAM. Items and champions are not balanced around maps except mostly SR. You act like 250 HP is nothing. It still gives tankiness but now it works for all forms of damage, plus HP scaling abilities (and missing health). It scales with Cinderhulk and Stoneborn Pact, synergizes better with Warmog, and now you apply GW so ADCs, Fioras etc wont get to lifesteal for free anymore. You are taking less damage as a tank which is the primary purpose of tank items. Slower atk speed = lower dps = more durability to disrupt teamfights. If you're buying thornmail for damage, you're an idiot. Lifesteal used to counter thornmail, now thornmail counters lifesteal/healing from all sources.

GA is no longer a tank item so you cannot do a fair comparison.

You seem to not read any of Riot's posts or announcements. They don't want tanks to be unkillable and doing too much damage. Thorns and sunfire still gives a bit, and there's always DMP is a way that gives bruisers damage. But if you're looking to just kill people by not having to do anything except for them to attack you to kill themselves, you are playing the wrong game.

vidghost7/19/2017, 11:38:17 PM1 votes

BRAMBLE VEST IS THE NEW THORNMAIL.. upgrading to thornmail is a complete waste of gold for the extra it provides.. Thornmail as an item is now complete trash in every way!