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@Talon players: A post-nerf discussion

Jamatrix666·12/1/2014, 6:44:03 PM·2 votes·1,156 views

Hello guys!

I just wanted to create a thread to talk a little bit about my favorite champion, Talon. I would really enjoy if you guys can participate to the discussion by giving your opinions and/or answering the questions I'll suggest you. Take note that this thread is absolutely not a complain one, nor aiming to be a big debate. Without further ado, here is what I would like to talk about:

  1. How are you performances with Talon now that his silence got removed? Same, slightly worse, much worse?
  2. Do you agree with the removal of the silence? Do you agree with the compensation (99% slow for 0.25 second)?
  3. If you do not agree with the compensation, what kind of mechanic should he obtains instead? (Suggest a realistic new compensation)
  4. Do you think Talon is on par compared to the other assassins?
  5. Do you think his base stats/scaling and ratios are okay? If not, which one could get some tweaks (nerfs/buffs)?
  6. Do you still have fun playing post-nerf Talon?

Here are my answers:

  1. My performances with Talon are approximately the same as before, but I HAVE to play more smartly that before.
  2. I agree with the removal of the silence. I do not totally agree with the compensation.
  3. A slightly longer slow (0.5 second for instance) would allow for a basic attack AND a Q while the slow is active, thus using the passive more effectively than ever. For now, only one auto-attack (empowered by Noxian Diplomacy or not) can be one during the 0.25 second slow window. Or make Cutthroat interrupt channeled abilities.
  4. I don't think he is on par with other assassins since while they almost all have extremely efficient escape mechanisms, Talon's only escape mechanism is a 55 seconds (at Rank 3) offensive ultimate required in order to do optimal burst. This alone makes him an all-in squishy champion that will never have a decent chance to get out of fight if things turn bad, unlike so many other assassins.
  5. I believe his base stats, scaling and abilities ratios are okay. Maybe Rake could use a -5 mana cost at all rank to compensate for his lack of any life or mana regeneration in his kit, but anyway I think great Talon players know how to manage their mana pretty well while still being efficient in lane.
  6. I still have A LOT of fun playing Talon :) I guess we can say he's a more balanced champion now that his foes have a way to counter his all-in. But deep inside my heart, I still wish his Cutthroat gets some tweaks, maybe some interaction with his other abilities, just to make Cutthroat less of a straight-forward/dull blink gap-closer and more of a unique element to his kit.

I can't wait to hear from you guys :)

10 Comments

JayenKei12/1/2014, 7:41:55 PM3 votes

How are you performances with Talon now that his silence got removed? Same, slightly worse, much worse?

Slightly worse. Dying a bit more but I definitely have to think when I commit and when I don't. Somewhat frustrating because I have had so many incidents where my teammate is all like "Talon wow, no help" and in my mind "not worth"

Do agree with the removal of the silence? Do you agree with the compensation (99% slow for 0.25 second)?

I favor the removal of silence. I strongly disagree with the compensation. It's awful and lazy on Riot's part. Imo the best suggestion to me personally was to give cutthroat the ability to cancel channels.

If you do not agree with the compensation, what kind of mechanic should he obtains instead? (Suggest a realistic new compensation)

Ability to cancel channels and maybe give a movement buff when Cutthroating an enemy champ to make it somewhat easier for Talon to stick.

Do you think Talon is on par compared to the other assassins?

Depends on what you mean by this. Are you talking about current meta assassins? Or assassins as a whole category? Compared to the current meta, he falls short. He's behind the likes of Zed, Akali, Katarina, Fizz, Kha'zix, Rengar

He's in the middle of the pack when comparing assassins as a whole. He may not be better than the assassins mentioned before but he is better/on par with the likes of Nidalee, LeBlanc, Kassadin, Evelynn, Master Yi, Yasuo, etc.

Do you think his base stats/scaling and ratios are okay? If not, which one could get some tweaks (nerfs/buffs)? Do you still have fun playing post-nerf Talon?

Base stats are fine. In most cases he's a little above average. Ratios are pretty normal too (AD scales by ~ +3 which is like most assassins, HP by +85, etc). Ratios in abilities are kind of sub par for Talon. For example, his Q only give 30% AD while Zed and Yasuo gets bonus 100% AD. So he isn't the worst but isn't the best.

I don't think he needs damage buffs though LOL It'd be nice but necessary or needed? No

Yes, I still have fun playing my favorite champ xD I love the cold and calculating nature of his kit. Go big or go home

LelouchtheGreat12/1/2014, 7:34:26 PM2 votes
  1. About the same except some matchups that used to slightly favor the enemy now heavily favor the enemy.
  2. Not in the least. You try to E onto the enemy mage in late game and they immediately zhonyas. You are dead and contributed almost no damage.
  3. Give Talon a new type of CC that does not prevent ability casts but does prevent summoner spells and item-actives for 1 second. This gives counterplay with champion spells but prevents flash from being an automatic escape button. Its so frustrating to play against someone like Leblanc, bait out her dashes and think you have an opportunity, then bam flash. Now I have to try and bait dashes again, and she probably wont go for it knowing she doesn't have flash anymore
  4. No. Less range and mobility than Leblanc and Kassadin. Not as safe or resource-less like Zed. No reset mechanic like Akali and Kat (who also are resource-less).
  5. Fine as is, but without any real compensation for loss of silence, might need some tuning in the long run.
  6. I have fun bc he is my favorite champion, but some matchups are such a pain to even try to win now its lost a lot of its luster. Lissandra comes to mind as a freezing hell. You can do your best to outplay her, but really all she has to do is hold ult til you use E. You lose all your bonus damage from E while she is invincible, you take a ton of damage, and unless you use ult to run, she can follow up on you really hard.
CaptnJakSparrow12/1/2014, 10:43:16 PM1 votes

He's fine. but a little underwhelming.

forist12/1/2014, 11:51:54 PM1 votes

Here are my answers just in case putting them out there might help clarify some of my stances on the nerf:

  1. My performances are practically the same now. In the beginning they were much worse, because his matchups have all flipped. I remember picking talon into a katarina or zed thinking "oh this is a good matchup for me", because i had played that matchup many times before, but damn was I wrong. Now i only play him into a select few champions such as: xerath, syndra, veigar, or twisted fate, and do fine. The level of outplaying I have to do in order to win lane is so much higher with the nerfs though, before it was merely being better at positioning and timing my commitments, now I have to wait for mistakes to capitalize on, because I will never win a straight-up 1v1 trade.

  2. No, I didn't agree with the removal of the silence, there still are much better forms of cc on much burstyer champs. I thought the compensation given was just a quick fix, because riot had something planned for his cut-throat ability..... but I guess we are still waiting on that one.

  3. I would suggest keeping the silence on cut throat, but changing the skill to a dash that only applies the silence if the enemy is facing away from you. Much like tryndamere's mocking shout or casseiopeia's ult function. Might also want to add a mechanic for dash to friendly champions/wards so that talon's cut-throat no longer has to be a blatant initiation move, which is one of the reasons he got in trouble in the first place.

  4. Nope, every other assassin has a better kit than talon atm, and probably more damage.

  5. I think his base stats and mana regen level are one of his more obvious weaknesses. Talon is designed to scale with items, and therefore he has those lower stats. If anything I would consider making him use energy to put him on par with the plethora of resource-less assassins in the game. His numbers would need to be tweaked, but I'm sure it would be in the realm of possibility.

  6. Yeah, talon is still fun to play, but ever since he got nerfed my champion pool has increased dramatically. In other words, they made his playstyle even more one dimensional and boring than it was before, so I still enjoy playing him, but not nearly as much as other champions who have much better kits like zed, yasuo, ezreal, nidalee, and ahri.

PatMcGroyn12/2/2014, 3:28:38 AM1 votes

Talon is still a very strong solo Q pick, and definitely one of the more capable assassins out there. He can just execute such a huge burst combo in such a short period of time. The removal of the silence definitely made his 1v1 against other casters a little more perilous, instead of just being straight up one sided, which I agree with and think is fine.

GROMMI12/2/2014, 1:16:30 PM1 votes

Hey guys! ^_^

How are you performances with Talon now that his silence got removed? Same, slightly worse, much worse? I'm performing better. The removal of silence had forced my positioning to be perfect or death is imminent.

Do you agree with the removal of the silence? Do you agree with the compensation (99% slow for 0.25 second)? Yup. I'd like it to remove channels, though. Kind of like Kassadin Q.

If you do not agree with the compensation, what kind of mechanic should he obtains instead? (Suggest a realistic new compensation) I do agree, but a buff for Talon that wouldn't gamebreak him would be minor rake mana reduction.

Do you think Talon is on par compared to the other assassins? Yup! He has a specific niche, while Zed and Fizz do, too.

Do you think his base stats/scaling and ratios are okay? If not, which one could get some tweaks (nerfs/buffs)? I think they're phenomenal.

Do you still have fun playing post-nerf Talon? ALWAYS MY GOOD MAN.

420BroScope12/1/2014, 7:05:10 PM1 votes

Talon's Cut Throat should suppress for .25 or .5 seconds. His Cut Throat has always had an obvious and predictable nature to it, the slow allows for immediate countering, all for a 10% damage bonus to your auto attack? huge nerf. also his cut throat should reset on kills or be able to jump to allies. nerf hammer really knocked him over the head, without his massive snowballing, he can't duel well anymore which is what he was really good at for me.

Jamatrix66612/4/2014, 8:22:20 AM1 votes

Thanks for your answers guys, I appreciate your comments as it gives me a nice portrait of the community's reaction on post-nerf Talon's performances. :)

SouL1ess12/1/2014, 10:19:18 PM1 votes

  1. Slightly worse. Any lane match-up requires the opponent screwing up - but that's not really different from before. Basically, silence removal forces Talons to emphasize on dodging the opponent's skills before dealing damage himself.

  2. I agree with the removal of silence, but Riot did a poor and very very lazy job thinking about compensation. The fact that they didn't even bother renaming the skill and instead made a JOKE out of it on the patch notes shows their sloppiness.

  3. Personally, I would rework Cutthroat into a ground-based skillshot with a mediocrely-long cast time, but that's in my own dreams. What I wanted Riot to give Cutthroat was removal of damage amplification but add in a damage component to it. If it was 60-100% of Talon's total AD, it effectively offsets the damage amplification removal, and doesn't force Talon to do everything in three seconds or fail at his job otherwise. Additionally, rename Cutthroat to Hamstrings if they keep the slow. And Talon should get a channel disruption on Cutthroat. Really, I had many many ideas for how Cutthroat will work but I will just mention what I think is the best and easiest-to-change solution here. I just don't think giving Talon a tiny-duration slow helps with anything he does.

  4. Talon's role was to exchange his life for another in a teamfight position. His escape doesn't work as an escape until he has full build, so for most of the game, he has no escape. Now that his silence is removed, he lost his ability to actually trade lives and he is relegated to a pick-off-lone-targets or clean-up role. His damage is actually on the lower end of assassin spectrum, but his reliability makes him a good assassin. I wouldn't say he's weak, but he is definitely worse than meta assassins by the fact that laning phase is an ordeal for Talon most of the time.

  5. His base stats and mana costs are not that bad considering that Talon has a HUGE mana pool to sustain what he does. Noxian diplomacy can see a flat 40 mana cost across all ranks, but that is it. However, now that Rake cannot 1-cast-clear the caster minions (because minion health increase lol) Talon may actually use more mana in lane. Rake's cost can be adjusted to 40/50/60/70/80 to make Talon's laning phase easier, but they are not necessary changes.

  6. I still find Talon to be the most enjoyable champion in League and I would continue to play him until the day Riot gives him a bad rework.

Edit: fk the formatting. I apologize for giant paragraphs.