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The real problem with Lee Sin (LEE SIN EXPOSED)

BoyManDog33·2/18/2016, 5:59:04 AM·161 votes·13,106 views

Before you come at me with your Lee fanboying (because that's what it is when you see a Lee Sin thread and downvote it because of anything negative being said about your main), thinking I'm suggesting just flat nerfing him with no compensation, hear me out and give me an honest discussion. By an honest discussion, I don't mean bring in current win rate and LCS pick rate to say he shouldn't be changed, that's an issue of meta more than champion design. If anything, his play rate being the current highest in the game (for jungle, above 2 FOTM champs) should be an accurate indication of the exact opposite. A 18.92% pick rate for jungle. Using some blatant rounding and fake math as you Lee Sin mains also like to do, ~20% pick rate means that you have a 1/5 probability of seeing a Lee Sin in your game. But you're right, He's doing poorly right now, so people are just playing him that frequently because... right.

POINT #1- The Blind Human Bullet An argument against the "Lee has no counterplay" statement is "dodge his q". If you've ever seen a Lee Sin in game, which you have if you've played at least 5 games in a row, Lee Sin's don't normally use their Q as an initiation tool. No no. What they do instead, is walk directly up to you and do one of two things: 1, they wait until they are point blank and hit you with a Q point blank, or if they can't do that, 2, they ward hop directly on top of you/ behind you and hit you with a Q point blank. Usually there's a costless ultimate thrown in there somewhere, you know how it goes.

You may think, "then walk away from him, don't let him come up to you like that." Well see laddie, Lee Sin has a base of 350 Movespeed. Wiith the popularity of Swiftness boots, that gives Lee Sin a minimum movespeed of 415 (410 assuming the swifties nerf goes through). Assuming you are in mid lane around level 6, and the lane is stuck right in the middle with no shove in either direction, Lee sin can cover, in 2 seconds, 830(MS in units over 2 seconds) + 700 ( max range of W) + 975 ( max range of first part of Q), coming up roughly to a total potential of 2505 units, or in comparison, a level 2 Caitlyn Ultimate. Now I understand, this is an extreme case that requires ridiculously well timed setup to even attempt to match the exact total potential, but the point is he doesn't need the total potential to accomplish what he needs to do, he needs less than 50% of that to gank an evenly pushed mid lane, and he has it.

POINT #2- Your Will, My 3000 Damage output Math for total damage output in different scenarios (becomes convoluted and hard to follow, all calculations are not taking into account armor/mr) Damage Abilities only: 170 (.9 bonus AD) + 170 (.9 bonus AD) + 8% missing health + 200 (1.0 bonus AD) + 600 (2.0 bonus AD) (Assuming AD Reds, AD Quints, Warrior enchant, Black Cleaver and at least level 16 , assuming the 8% is used last) 170 (117) + 170 (117) + 200 (130) + 600 (260)(294) = 1764 (damage done, otherwise known as missing health) + 141= 1905 Damage on abilities only

And that's without autoing once. Here is the same scenario with the 2 autos woven inbetween (Lvl 16 AD = 107): 170 (117) + ((107 + 130) x 2) + 170 (117) + ((107 + 130) x 2)+ 200 (130) + ((107 + 130) x 2)+ 600 (260) = 3186 + 255 = 3441 Damage with autos woven.

3441 Mixed Damage on 4 ability casts and 6 autos. With only two items that offer damage. This isn't even taking into account that he has a decent shield, built in life steal and spell vamp, and a 4 second 60% slow (and I swear if anyone complains that it doesn't slow Attack speed anymore I swear I'll find you and shit on your pillow)

POINT #3-Blindness is no impairment against someone who can't move and takes more damage for building tank IF YOU USE YOUR ULT NOW, YOU WILL DO A 600 DAMAGE NUKE WITH A SCALING OF 200% BONUS AD BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE, NOT ONLY IS IT A NUKE, IT'S ALSO A DISPLACEMENT IN THE FORM OF A KNOCKBACK EQUALING 1200 UNITS BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE, BEFORE THEY GET KICKED, THEY ACT AS IF THEY WERE ROOTED AND ARE UNABLE TO USE ANY ABILITIES BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE, AFTER THEY GET KICKED, THEY ARE STUNNED UPON LANDING BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE, YOU GET EXTRA DAMAGE TACKED ON TO THE ULTIMATE IF THE KICKED TARGET HITS ON OF THEIR ALLIES!!!1!

Memes aside, this ability is complete bullshit. It may be THE single most overloaded ability in the game, even more so than Xin Zhao's W currently. Even more so than Zed's ult I would go as far to say (farming those upvotes amirite Zed and Lee Sin mains?). Just for funsies, let's figure the total amount of damage it could do to a team that's clumped as 5.

Assumptions: Same items as stated above, target has 2000 bonus health, again no armor is taken into account, this is in a vacuum. 600 (260) + (600 (260) (420)) x4 = 5980 Total potential damage, on top of a root, a knockback, an aoe knockup, and a stun. All for the cost of FREE! THAT'S RIGHT FREE! AND IF YOU ORDER NOW I didn't have a joke here, I just wanted to bring it back up that it's a smorgasbord of an ability.

POINT #4 Lee Sin, more like "Free Win" (An analysis of the playerbase) This is where I may lose some of you, but it needs to be said in some form. Lee Sin players are toxic. Not in the raging-in-all-chat kinda way, not even in the Zed spamming laugh kinda way (seriously though, that HUHUHUHUU with his little arm spasm is tilt poison), but in the kind of way that they promote taking the path of least resistance.

"BUT BOIMANGDINGO, LEE SIN IS REAL HARD TO PLAY SO IT'S OKAY" Alright, skill floor =/= skill ceiling. When I was just a boy in Season 3, I picked up Lee Sin in hopes of finding a new champion to play. Upon purchasing him I went into sandbox mode a custom game and messed around with his abilities, and I'll admit he was next to impossible to learn without looking at guides or watching videos about his abilities. Once I did learn his combos and how to weave his autos between spells, I believe I spiked to like a 70% winrate over 30ish games (just from memory, could be off by a bit), playing only Lee Sin. How does this represent the path of least resistance? I was bad with Lee Sin. Like really bad. At one point, I tried to set up a macro button to automatically ward hop, and I couldn't even make that work. But still, even being a baddie, it didn't matter because I was playing a champion that has a skill plateau right after the skill floor (meaning once you figure out his abilities, you know how to play him, the only way to improve is to do things faster, thus raising the skill level towards the skill ceiling).

Basically, what I'm saying is that he's easy once you understand him. That's not a problem in the champion however. It's a problem in the player base using abusing a champion that's now easy to them, that has 1250 units/sec movement potential, 3441 damage combo, ridiculously overloaded ult, all the while saying, "I only play him because he's fun". Enough hiding, you play him because you realize he's broken and you can squeeze wins out of him. Want more proof? Check the Win % by games chart being nearly exponential. You may also rebut with other champions have a similar line. Look at the sample sizes now. Lee Sin has 39534 games Analyzed This Patch.

TL;DR: Read the whole thing and give me an honest opinion, yes you, Lee Sin Main who looked for the tl;dr. Quit looking for the easy way out :^)

SOURCES http://champion.gg/champion/LeeSin/Jungle http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/champion/lee-sin-73/details http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/champion/caitlyn-67 http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Lee_Sin

229 Comments

Deathchewy2/18/2016, 10:36:14 AM44 votes

Your logic makes sense entirely, i agree entirely with all points. "Warrior enchant,cleaver and rest tank?" Watch as i devastate your team cause my damage is super scaled. Compared to someone like jarvan who has a kit very very similar to lee in terms of how it's used. Lee still has the upper hand even with the same build

darkmatchwaldo2/18/2016, 8:36:26 AM20 votes

This may just be my shitty bronze opinion and i recognize that so feel free to tell me i'm wrong and that i'm just not knowlegable on Lee Sin because i only started around like patch 5.11. But i think that as overloaded as his kit is, he's average compared to other Junglers right now. I just don't think he can abuse all the OP jungle items or current meta. I played probably around 75-100 games on him and had a blast doing so last season and with all the meta changes, it just feels like why play LeeSin when you can play:

APUdyr who once he gets rolling is going to take up so many freaking resources, he'll most likely be able to 1v1 anyone and if you send two he's just gonna run away only to come back seconds later. Elise who brings arguably better CC for level 3 ganks and crazy burst (i like to think of her as the AP Lee Sin because of her crazy early game). Graves who will chunk your entire team with one rotation. Tank XinZhao with item 3931 item 3124 is absolutely stupid. Rammus who is really strong with all the heavy AD comps being played if your team needs a tank. Poppy who can turn a 5v5 over objectives into an easy 2v5 by knocking away 2 people and permaCCing a 3rd. Nidalee who can make your junglers life a living hell and has a crazy fast clear time, not to mention how freaking fast she move through the jungle weaving through brushes with item 1410 item 3009

Granted, LeeSin in the right hands is still insanely good. It always will be, he's a low skillfloor/high skill cap champion. I really like that skill plateau thing you said, i hadn't really even thought about it until you pointed it out. My first few games on him were god awful but once i got the hang of it things got so out of hand. I wasn't even using his complex tricks, i just figured out his basic QRQ combos and other similar things and just like that I was carrying games like i never had on any other champion. I just feel like there's so many more problems in the jungle that should be addressed sooner. Mainly how well item 3009 item 1410 and item 3931 item 3124 compliment SO many champions. But he'll never be "out of meta" because of how diverse he is, he can fill any role that your team needs. Need a tank? LeeSin got your back, Need someone to take out that pesky Vayne? LeeSin can take care of that with a quick flank, amazing dragon/baron execution? LeeSin can do that too. I feel that he's a jack of all trades in a meta that's decided by junglers who are really good at ONE thing.

Map pressure?Udyr Snowballing lanes early?Elise Raw damage?Graves Duelist? XinZhao Tank?Rammus Teamfight?Poppy Counterjungle?Nidalee

Lee Sin can do all these things but each of these champions does it better, it all just depends on what the teamcomp needs. Lee Sin is so good in SoloQ because most of the time people aren't building actual comps, they're just playing their main. Playing LeeSin lets you first pick your jungler and not have to worry about what your team is going to need. You aren't gonna be screwed if your team doesn't have a tank. You aren't gonna be screwed if you have laners who need early help. You can deal massive damage if your team is lacking it. You can straight up outplay most champions in a 1v1 situation. You can build Tank on top of your item 1408 and your utility is going to off the charts; you can dive into the enemy team, ult their carry, and then tank a crap ton of damage. You're a damn good teamfighter because of that ability to be a tank who will still delete the carry of left unchecked, a properly timed ult WILL win you the fight. You can counterjungle like a freaking fiend because of your ability to outplay people and pull off some super cheeky steals with your Q, then proceed to kill them.

Now that i've been typing this for an hour i'm realizing that it doesn't matter that each champion can do that one thing better because a good Lee Sin is gonna be able to do all of that in one game where they rest of them can ONLY do that one thing. He's gonna be able to use up resources in his powerspike, he's gonna be able to snowball lanes early, he can do that raw team damage if he plays his fights correctly, he can duel like a mofo if he's smart, he can transition into a crazy utility tank, he can teamfight like a boss if his positioning is good, and he can counterjungle with the best of them of course. GG i'm off to play some LeeSin because i tanked my win rate in the past few weeks by trying to play FOTM shit item 3070

Gregor Gysi2/18/2016, 7:24:09 PM14 votes

{quoted}

Before you come at me with your Lee fanboying (because that's what it is when you see a Lee Sin thread and downvote it because of anything negative being said about your main), thinking I'm suggesting just flat nerfing him with no compensation, hear me out and give me an honest discussion. By an honest discussion, I don't mean bring in current win rate and LCS pick rate to say he shouldn't be changed, that's an issue of meta more than champion design. If anything, his play rate being the current highest in the game (for jungle, above 2 FOTM champs) should be an accurate indication of the exact opposite. A 18.92% pick rate for jungle. Using some blatant rounding and fake math as you Lee Sin mains also like to do, ~20% pick rate means that you have a 1/5 probability of seeing a Lee Sin in your game. But you're right, He's doing poorly right now, so people are just playing him that frequently because... right.

Your first paragraph already disqualifies this thread for an "honest discussion". What you are basically saying is that winrate/LCS pickrate doesn't matter, because they don't prove your point. Pickrate however matters. Any "math" that doesn't support your opinion is "fake". You also think that pickrate has to equal strength. Winrate is influenced by meta - but not influenced by strength. Also, I am by no means a Lee Sin main - somehow that seems to matter.

{quoted}

POINT #1- The Blind Human Bullet An argument against the "Lee has no counterplay" statement is "dodge his q". If you've ever seen a Lee Sin in game, which you have if you've played at least 5 games in a row, Lee Sin's don't normally use their Q as an initiation tool. No no. What they do instead, is walk directly up to you and do one of two things: 1, they wait until they are point blank and hit you with a Q point blank, or if they can't do that, 2, they ward hop directly on top of you/ behind you and hit you with a Q point blank. Usually there's a costless ultimate thrown in there somewhere, you know how it goes.

Waitwaitwaitwaitwait. The burden of proof is on you. I don't need to argue why Lee Sin does not have no counterplay. YOU have to explain why Lee Sin supposedly has "no counterplay". Seeing how "no" means no - absolutely zero - counterplay you are going to have a very hard time.

{quoted}

You may think, "then walk away from him, don't let him come up to you like that." Well see laddie, Lee Sin has a base of 350 Movespeed.

Still possible. You want to prove that he is absolutely no counterplay. It's still possible to avoid him. As long as it is possible he does have counterplay. Whether the potential counterplay against Lee is in enough doesn't matter, you said that there is 0 counterplay. If you want to be taken seriously you may consider proposing a useful statement instead of one that can't be true anyways. As long as you don't prove that there is 0.00000 counterplay against Lee there is not even a reason to answer all this. By exaggerating beyond reason you've shown how biased you are. How am I supposed to take you seriously?

{quoted}

POINT #2- Your Will, My 3000 Damage output Math for total damage output in different scenarios (becomes convoluted and hard to follow, all calculations are not taking into account armor/mr) Damage Abilities only: 170 (.9 bonus AD) + 170 (.9 bonus AD) + 8% missing health + 200 (1.0 bonus AD) + 600 (2.0 bonus AD) (Assuming AD Reds, AD Quints, Warrior enchant, Black Cleaver and at least level 16 , assuming the 8% is used last) 170 (117) + 170 (117) + 200 (130) + 600 (260)(294) = 1764 (damage done, otherwise known as missing health) + 141= 1905 Damage on abilities only

And that's without autoing once. Here is the same scenario with the 2 autos woven inbetween (Lvl 16 AD = 107): 170 (117) + ((107 + 130) x 2) + 170 (117) + ((107 + 130) x 2)+ 200 (130) + ((107 + 130) x 2)+ 600 (260) = 3186 + 255 = 3441 Damage with autos woven.

3441 Mixed Damage on 4 ability casts and 6 autos. With only two items that offer damage. This isn't even taking into account that he has a decent shield, built in life steal and spell vamp, and a 4 second 60% slow (and I swear if anyone complains that it doesn't slow Attack speed anymore I swear I'll find you and shit on your pillow)

There is no statement. Your first point failed because your statement sucked. Your second argument is not even an argument because there is no conclusion. Useless calculation.

{quoted}

POINT #3-Blindness is no impairment against someone who can't move and takes more damage for building tank IF YOU USE YOUR ULT NOW, YOU WILL DO A 600 DAMAGE NUKE WITH A SCALING OF 200% BONUS AD BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE, NOT ONLY IS IT A NUKE, IT'S ALSO A DISPLACEMENT IN THE FORM OF A KNOCKBACK EQUALING 1200 UNITS BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE, YOU GET EXTRA DAMAGE TACKED ON TO THE ULTIMATE IF THE KICKED TARGET HITS ON OF THEIR ALLIES!!!1!

Memes aside, this ability is complete bullshit. It may be THE single most overloaded ability in the game, even more so than Xin Zhao's W currently. Even more so than Zed's ult I would go as far to say (farming those upvotes amirite Zed and Lee Sin mains?). Just for funsies, let's figure the total amount of damage it could do to a team that's clumped as 5.

Overloaded is a problematic term as it doesn't really say anything about the ability. Is it too complex while not bringing in alot depth? Is it too strong? Seeing how you use it together with Xin W which has way less depth and somewhat less complexity "overloaded" seems really random. You seem to use it to describe any ability you don't like.

{quoted}

POINT #4 Lee Sin, more like "Free Win" (An analysis of the playerbase) This is where I may lose some of you, but it needs to be said in some form. Lee Sin players are toxic. Not in the raging-in-all-chat kinda way, not even in the Zed spamming laugh kinda way (seriously though, that HUHUHUHUU with his little arm spasm is tilt poison), but in the kind of way that they promote taking the path of least resistance.

"BUT BOIMANGDINGO, LEE SIN IS REAL HARD TO PLAY SO IT'S OKAY" Alright, skill floor =/= skill ceiling. When I was just a boy in Season 3, I picked up Lee Sin in hopes of finding a new champion to play. Upon purchasing him I went into sandbox mode a custom game and messed around with his abilities, and I'll admit he was next to impossible to learn without looking at guides or watching videos about his abilities. Once I did learn his combos and how to weave his autos between spells, I believe I spiked to like a 70% winrate over 30ish games (just from memory, could be off by a bit), playing only Lee Sin. How does this represent the path of least resistance? I was bad with Lee Sin. Like really bad. At one point, I tried to set up a macro button to automatically ward hop, and I couldn't even make that work. But still, even being a baddie, it didn't matter because I was playing a champion that has a skill plateau right after the skill floor (meaning once you figure out his abilities, you know how to play him, the only way to improve is to do things faster, thus raising the skill level towards the skill ceiling).

Basically, what I'm saying is that he's easy once you understand him. That's not a problem in the champion however. It's a problem in the player base using abusing a champion that's now easy to them, that has 1250 units/sec movement potential, 3441 damage combo, ridiculously overloaded ult, all the while saying, "I only play him because he's fun". Enough hiding, you play him because you realize he's broken and you can squeeze wins out of him.

That is not an analysis like you claim, that is an arbitrary example.

{quoted}

Enough hiding, you play him because you realize he's broken and you can squeeze wins out of him.

Want more proof? Check the Win % by games chart being nearly exponential. You may also rebut with other champions have a similar line. Look at the sample sizes now. Lee Sin has 39534 games Analyzed This Patch.

And here comes the analysis part. Incidentally also the really bad part. Your claim: Lee Sin players play him because they "can squeeze wins out of him.". Your proof: Win % by games played is nearly exponential. But your proof doesn't support your claim. Your proof supports the claim that the more experience a Lee Sin player has the better he gets. The thing is - Lee Sin players can't squeeze wins out of him - atleast not more than losses. As you gracefully proved Lee Sin actually gets drastically better the more experience the player has. Too bad that even the most experienced players (125+ wins) manage to win half of their games. Free win huh.

PS: If I come across as too harsh then that is because of your tone. You clearly showed that you don't want an honest and unbiased discussion. You want to circlejerk.

RichBean2/18/2016, 6:17:43 PM13 votes

Op I can see that you put a lot of effort into this post but you really need to state your information in a way that isnt so biased. Throughout the post you keep insulting "lee mains", and keep suggesting that the only reason someone would argue with you is because they abuse him to win. I dont play lee sin and i have no problem with him in his current state ( just my opinion). Also, you did a lot of math for some stat validity of your argument but when you do something like that you should include comparisons of other champs stats that foll his roll in order to see just how significant the stat difference is. Still, nice effort, just be more professional in the future( if you want to convince more people of your claims).

whensmarvel2/18/2016, 2:47:04 PM11 votes

My opinion is that Lee sin is the most over rated champion in the game.

Why people play him I don't know.

Doctor Horse2/18/2016, 7:48:10 PM9 votes

I don't understand what you were going for here. You didn't propose anything to change what you have issues with and the scenarios you've described aren't practical. Most games don't involve Lee Sin getting enough damage items and staying in combat long enough to reach the numbers you've put out there. Not to mention in order to use the Resonating Strike ---> Safeguard to a ward and Dragon's Rage combo mitigates the Resonating Strike damage because you're cancelling it by ward hopping in the middle of the animation.

On PAPER, Lee Sin is overloaded there's no debating that. I think he's actually the most balanced character in the game because of the skill required to utilize what he's capable of. In regular games it's not common to see game winning combos from Silver III Lee Sin though and more likely than not they're going to lose that game because even the EXPERIENCED Lee Sin players are just shy of a 50% win rate right now.

Also pick rate doesn't mean anything when experienced players can't pull up to a 50% win rate. The 20% pick rate has nothing to do with how effectively he wins games, it's because he's fun and mechanically rewarding to play.

Steel Blossom2/18/2016, 6:56:21 AM8 votes

Lee's ult, about as overloaded as Fizz E and Ahri Q, but with 0 counterplay because it's fucking instant point and click CCing nuke...

Kieferr2/18/2016, 8:00:03 PM8 votes

So ignorant and biased that it hurts. I think I got cancer reading this.

Hayaishi22/18/2016, 6:27:45 AM7 votes

As long as he has counterplay it's fine.

It's apparently fine when an Assassin walks up to a squishy and unloads his 9023758927982759 damage burst that can't even be dodged, but if Lee Sin walks up to you and Qs in melee range then he has no counterplay, and is problematic etc.

Lee Sin hasn't been a problem since Elder Lizard was the AD jungle item. Back then he was ridiculously overpowered, now he is not even worth complaining about. Hating him is one thing, but wanting nerfs just because you're bias against him (Which what this thread is about) it's not acceptable when it comes to discussing balance.

HeartPalpitation2/18/2016, 7:35:03 PM6 votes

Lee has an extremely high skill ceiling, and is a high risk high reward champion, that if he does shitty at the start he is going to be utterly useless. Sure he has high burst but so does 100 other champs in the game, but you don't get that burst without a cost, you arent full bursting people if you are building tank items, i promise you that. The reason he is so popular and is played so often is because he is FUN. He is a complex high skill champion that rewards you for lots of time and practice and is just incredibly fun to play, i don't get joy out of any other champion as much as i do playing lee, because when i get that sweet insec that you have been planning for the past 30 seconds while clearing your jungle making your way to mid lane to kick that bi*** malzahar right into that sick ahri charm i get so freaking excited and get that rush that you just can't get playing anything else. I am not shocked or surprised he has such a high pick rate, because he is definitelt one of the best designed champions in the entire game and i can't wait until riot makes another champion that makes me feel as good as playing lee sin. LeeSin

PePsiLemoNN2/18/2016, 1:36:16 PM6 votes

Stopped reading at point #4.

Wanted to say things about annoying not being equal to OP but i'll just pass talking to haters :^)

Karma Deified2/18/2016, 5:09:03 PM5 votes

Lee Sin is a safe pick, he's not amazing at any individual thing he does, but he's consistent at doing all of them. Lee can contribute at most stages of the game with his kit.

Riot can see this, so they won't nerf Lee. A reasonable decision. Most champs out perform Lee Sin when they're doing well, but most of those champs can be buried quite easily.

When you're playing competitively, why go for the risky pick when you can have a safe pick like Lee Sin, even then it's not like he wins most of his games. But you can be sure, when you pick him, there's a good chance you won't get stomped on and be useless for the entire game.

I've always thought of Lee as the absolute middle champion of League. He does nothing amazing, but he doesn't ever do nothing and I guess that's annoying for people.

Vore Monster2/18/2016, 3:45:46 PM4 votes

The real problem with Lee Sin (LEE SIN EXPOSED)(GONE SEXUAL) (ALMOST DIED)

.... sorry

Warthog1772/18/2016, 11:29:31 PM4 votes

as a low elo lee sin "main" (been taking a break from him) I guess I will say a thing or two. You are showing the math of his combo but you aren't pointing out how easily you can make mistakes with him as well. With every action you make, every plan you use, every single thing you do is a chance to make a mistake. With lee sin this possibility is extremely likely in many cases. With the amount of choices made lee sins can make mistakes easily. plus you say that lee sin scales well, I will agree that he scales decently number wise. His downfall is keeping up in teamfights due to the fact that he isnt very good in sustained fights late game due to how he builds fighter/bruiser and how he needs auto attacks to not become energy starved which is extremely hard when the adc is attacking you. I also do not play lee sin because he is easy to win with. In fact, when I play lee sin I go through the early game knowing that if I don't snowball I will lose relevance in teamfights. I play lee sin because he keeps my interest, he is the only champion that I can keep coming back to and not get bored. I play him for his agressive nature and fun playmaking abilities, not his "easy win"(which is bull, lee is a pretty complex champ that takes a long time to get good with).

Auroramancer2/18/2016, 7:10:51 PM3 votes

My biggest problem with Lee Sin is the amount of agency he has.

I don't mind his damage. I don't mind his CC. But what puts him over the top is that he has FULL control over his combat scenarios. He gets two dashes, he has high base move speed, he has AoE move speed slows, and a super low cooldown knockback. You just can't catch him when he doesn't want to be caught. And that's the bullshit part of Lee Sin, in tandem with his CC and damage scaling.

4yoyoman2/18/2016, 4:04:50 PM3 votes

I remember when Dunkey beat Sky in smash... oh wait this isnt his "why I hate LeeSin video"... awkward.

Blakers12/18/2016, 6:00:17 PM3 votes

My issue with this is in the beginning you tried to offer logical reasons for why Lee Sin is overly popular (aside for actually being fun to play) and frustrating to play against. I agreed with a few of your points. Where I begin to disagree is toward the end. Instead of offering constructive ways to assess the problems of Lee Sin's kit (what your title implies), you got carried away with your dislike for the champion in question and began ranting about how you hate the champion and its players.

I would have upvoted this thread if you actually attempted to tackle the issues that you have made obvious to everyone on the boards. As of now you come off as a frustrated player that has thought out clearly what is making them upset, but having left out crucial information about how to fix the problem(s) all we are left with is a rant.

Before I am downvoted before people even read past the second sentence I am in no way shape or form a Lee Sin main. This account is 6 years old. I've owned all champions for 2+ years now and try to play all of them as frequently as possible. I played Lee Sin regularly in season 1 and 2, but now I only play him once every 100 games or so.

The past 4 or 5 patches have been Udyr, Xin, Evelynn (these are the champs I have the most games played with in recent time), and all the ADCs as my selected champions.

Side note: Rito needs to stop buffing my champs. Champion select is painful for me this patch.

La Barbotte2/18/2016, 6:41:25 PM3 votes

Meanwhile bruiser yi laughing in the corner

Snowplosion2/19/2016, 12:13:57 AM3 votes

How much difference does 350 move speed make compared to 330. I don't think it is really that much. If you happen to be 550 units away and your a champ with 330 move speed vs Lee SIn if you were moving forward only it would take him about 27.5 seconds to walk on top of you. To get to melee range (125-175) it would take him about 19.5 seconds. My math might be a small tad off. Also for all you guys in the "FUCK LEE" circle jerk think before you say 19.5 seconds is not that much time.

WadeWilson13372/19/2016, 6:09:32 AM3 votes

Honestly Lee Sin is pretty bad right now. With so many junglers with good early games in the meta...Xin, Udyr, even stuff like Rumble with good clears, Lee is pretty eh. Nidalee might be AP, but she has MUCH more pressure that lee, farms faster, and is the queen bitch of counterjungling. Also has good ganks. Not to mention Elise along with other champs listed, Lee Sin falls off so hard he becomes irrelevant. He also has the added weakness of being AD, and lets face it, most comps dont need another AD on their team. But honestly, if you just realize Lee Sin is absolutely useless past the 30 minute mark and he loses 1v1 to basically any other bruiser at that point, you realize how garbage tier he is. I honestly cant think of another meta champion that falls off as hard as Lee Sin. Honestly, i think he needs to be buffed. But what do i know, i just havent lost to a Lee Sin in probably..2 months?

KANYE OBAMA GOD2/19/2016, 12:53:25 AM2 votes

I loved your TL;DR at the end hahahaha

BiscuitWitch2/19/2016, 1:33:34 AM2 votes

The real problem with Lee Sin (LEE SIN EXPOSED) (IN THE HOOD) (GONE WRONG) (ALMOST DIED)

Chuck Charles2/20/2016, 2:16:37 PM2 votes

I just want to say I don't think Lee Sin Is "overpowered" but his power is way too loaded into the wrong aspects of his kit. he has burst damage and insane mobility. Lee sin is made to be either an assassin or a fight. his kit lends well to being an assassin, but also can work as a fighter. the problem is he is both. his damage ratios are pretty insane for only a couple damage items. he can still blow you up for a long time if you are squishy. unless the game goes 35 minutes plus he is always able to assassinate. and late game he is still useful with his kit. thats not a bad thing per say.

he does indeed fall off, and its a good amount late game.

I just feel that his ratios are just too high. if he wants to assassinate someone he should be forced to keep building a ton of damage.

he also feels useless without damage compared to most champs the later the game goes. sure, he is relevant cuz of kick utility, but the amount of times I've seen a Lee Sin get fed beyond belief only to struggle to do much in team fights is pretty unreal. his shield feels rather weak and he has ok utlity on his slow and vamp.

just wish they would shift power from his ratios into more utility. so basically he strong early because of base damages and then he can do one of two things: build full damage and still assasinate (risk blowing up) or build more bruiser/tanky and have stronger utility. I wish his shield would scale with health or something of that nature (obviously paired with an overall damage ratio nerf).

currently lee sin feels shitty for lee sin players and people against him.

Kaeblen2/18/2016, 9:05:26 PM2 votes

Normally, a champion that does EVERYTHING will tend to do it slightly worse than his competitors. Lee Sin does everything. and he does it about 95% as well as anyone else doing those things. #But Wait, There's More: Lee Sin does not need to choose which role he will fill: he can do all of them simultaneously.

Take note, I am not actually bothered by Lee Sin nearly as much as other players. I do not hate him, nor would I call for him to be nerfed.

Dirty Roleplayer2/19/2016, 3:55:04 PM2 votes

So lets take away more tools from Lee Sin. Apparently he has too many.