Jayce nerfs are missing the point

UrPalAl·3/13/2019, 7:23:48 AM·18 votes·10,172 views

Jayce is currently sitting on the PBE with Base HP, HP Regen, and their scaling all getting nerfed. Now, I do think that Jayce needs a nerf. He's at about 49% winrate, which for Jayce is pretty high considering his ceiling, that being said the HP nerfs make no sense.

The annoying part of Jayce is his abusive laning phase thanks to his high damage from range. The reason the nerf is going through in the first place is to "bring him in line with other marksmen" since that's where "he's currently at." I don't think we should be moving him more towards a pure marksman though if that's the problem, instead his power should be shifted over to hammer stance. If the issue is his abusive laning phase, nerf his cannon damage and mitigate that with some changes to his hammer damage so he feels forced to go out of his comfort zone and take risks that the opposing laner can actually capitalize on.

tl;dr The main issues with this nerf are that 1. these changes completely miss the mark and won't help make facing Jayce in lane any more bearable at early levels, and 2. it's purposefully changing Jayce's identity as a champion, something that should be avoided just for the sake of balance (specifically when there are alternatives).

26 Comments

Tobykachu3/13/2019, 7:50:57 AM9 votes

Whilst you're right in saying Jayce won't be any more fun to face at early levels, it at least opens up some avenues for you to fight back. As Hashinshin pointed out, current Jayce has higher HP than Olaf at level 1. How is that fair for a champion who spends most of his time in ranged form.

Serika Zero3/13/2019, 2:22:48 PM5 votes

Most top loaners that complain about jayce complain that if they are away from jayce: he can poke them to death (ranged form). And if they get close to him in melee range, he will beat them to death (in melee form).

While gnar is just as awful, he doesn't have that much control over forms. And he shares cool downs. jayce has full form control and not shared cool downs. He can range q and then melee q right after it....

So, at lv 1 you fight vs 2 ability champion, at lv 2vs 4 abilities and at lv 3 vs 6 abilities. So, if you just unload your entire load in the enemy, you're more likely to win than them (4 damaging abilities, one defensive and damaging one and one that enhances his q which won't do that much in a full all in).


So,him having less hp and dying more easy to an enemy combo ain't a bad change.

Sir Saltarin3/13/2019, 11:53:11 AM4 votes

Caitlyn is the adc with lowest base hp in the game to compensate how hard she bullies lane, and it's fine.

Giving the same treatment to Jayce is a good idea.

Salron3/13/2019, 5:22:52 PM3 votes

No they're not It makes him more vulnerable to being all-inned, as well as make damage stick better with the regen nerfs

woodvsmurph3/13/2019, 2:13:31 PM3 votes

By nerfing base hp and hp regen as well as their scaling they are:

making him more vulnerable to his opponents' burst damage at early and later levels

making him more vulnerable to being slowly chunked out when his opponents do manage to get a good trade onto him

Basically, they are making his laning phase weaker by rewarding opponents who get off proper trades vs him by making their damage on him more meaningful. So uh... they are doing exactly what you suggest, just not in the exact method you suggest. And here's a consideration for why they SHOULDN'T do it the way you suggest:

Think about nidalee in mid and late game teamfights. How often do you see her hit a spear on a bruiser or tank or even a riven and decide to go all-in off something like that and actually get positive results? Basically never right? Yeah. Because she's a squishy vulnerable ranged champ that relies on her range and strong poke to build an advantage over you so she can EVENTUALLY go in off a good ranged combo and finish you off. Well that's kinda the same story with jayce in ranged vs hammer stance. If his ranged stance is made significantly weaker UNLESS followed up by an immediate melee combo, then so many champs would just wreck him for that during the early phase of the game when he's supposed to be stronger than them (if played properly) and also they'll outscale him. They already incentivize him to do melee through a combo of it offering good finishing damage on opponents, disengage vs certain melee's like renekton, and to restore his insanely low mana pool compared to the mana pool of other such mana-hungry champs. Seriously, could you imagine if ezreal had the mana challenges jayce does? And before you go thinking I'm some jayce main or enthusiast... you're more than welcome to research me - I basically NEVER play jayce. In fact, I'm generally the guy playing AGAINST him up in top lane. So speaking from THAT type of first hand experience, I can tell you that putting some sort of further incentive for jayce to use melee over ranged form for laning phase power would neither be of good service to his opponents nor jayce himself. Either the melee bonuses he'd get would be so great that you couldn't touch the minions away from your tower because jayce would out-duel you in both melee and ranged to such a massive degree or... the ranged into melee combo would work much like nid and while offering a good bonus would not work due to how squishy the guy is vs a much more durable bruiser or tank and he'd just get wrecked for gap closing and swapping to melee without properly poking someone down enough first. The changes to hp and hp regen mean getting a good trade off vs him now increases your ability to win out in the game of trading your hp bar away for his mana pool. They make it require fewer trades vs him to get him low enough in hp that you can all-in him. And they leave laning phase jayce in that position of power that he needs to be viable beyond laning phase IF he's played properly. I don't want him more feast or famine from laning phase on and becoming another problematic champ that either needs regular fine-tuning ever patch or so or else to be left ignored and be largely unplayable or very weak for large portions of a season. Which is exactly where he would be by making him more melee focused or even ranged-into-melee combo focused for laning phase power. And while you might not know it yet, you yourself agree with me too.

Wild Geese3/13/2019, 3:14:54 PM2 votes

He's popular in pro-play. At least they didn't lower his damage. I think Jayce will be OK - it's nothing super major but might need a Doran Sword/Shield start instead of Corrupting pot due to the changes.

Warlord Rhinark3/13/2019, 7:56:59 AM2 votes

Now hold on a second.

How does a 49% win rate warrant a nerf?

What?

Luigi Tortellini3/13/2019, 4:49:54 PM2 votes

I think for once Riot is making the right move. Jayce is seriously beefy for a ranged champion with a disengage.

Stars Shaper3/13/2019, 5:21:39 PM2 votes

He still is incredibly mana hungry and his high damage from range can be dodged quite easily if you know how to position.

Jayce thrives in high damage metas and his stats are more than fine. What these nerfs are trying to achieve is keeping his power where it should while making him less safe if he either dives or gets some hits himself.

TyroneWatermelon3/14/2019, 3:00:00 AM1 votes

They still want Jayce to be a ranged lane bully burst dps aoe melee cc %HP engage disengage assassin mage fighter, its just so now that when champions actually get to fight him if they can reach him at all, they should stand a better chance of winning. So unless Jayce plays it good like cancer, nothing is changed.

SuperTopLFBottom3/13/2019, 1:24:37 PM1 votes

Sooo there is about no toplaner you can actually play anymore.

Everyone nerfed into the ground except riven. Well that's one way to get sales going. Like literally every melee toplaner is pure fuckin dogshit. Only thing playable to deal with shitty mages and riven is jayce. And he gets nerfed. Yeah idk about that one. And saying jayce is a marksmen? Wut?

Didn't riot classify him as "artillery mage" a while back? Or a "specialist" now he is brought in line with "marksmen" ?

AS I LAY FEEDING3/13/2019, 6:09:39 PM1 votes

REMOVE GNAR

Shiroe Okazaki3/13/2019, 5:17:45 PM1 votes

My problem with jayce is that he can miss a q but the aoe can still hit you. Or your beating him in lane and have more gold but all his items are cheap so he can keep up with you. He also has mixed damage so hes hard to build against.