Boards›Gameplay

What do people want from the enchanter class???

Floofz·9/29/2017, 11:42:47 PM·25 votes·2,376 views

So ive played this game since season 1, ive played support from season 1, and ive always liked supports that currently are labeled under the enchanter class or are referred to as egirl supports as I enjoy healing and shielding in any game I just like keeping people alive through those methods I find it fun. I get that isn't for everyone and as the league community has shown over the course of time is people tend to just hate them as they find them as uninteractive, unfun, ect. People are complaining that they protect the adc very well and that's the problem with the class well imo its the entire role of the class??? if you want them to be less about reactive pt and click plays they need power shifted somewhere else otherwise your just gimping champions to get them out of the game which one isn't fair to people who enjoyed them for whatever reason and two makes no sense for the sake of balance.

Jannas mini rework for example it had a lot of potential as encouraging janna to auto attack was a great idea and should still be promoted as it forces her to put herself in danger while giving her a laning phase in which she can win if she trades properly however not only did they nerf her shield on release of the mini rework but also in the 2nd hotfix to basically make it a worse lulu shield they also nerfed her damage on her passive to the pt that her damage per auto in laning phase is weaker then it was pre rework but her shield is also much weaker and shes squishier... So now you have a ghetto lulu that's just not right. Id suggest just bring back her passive damage to at least 30% if not the original 35% and keep the rest of the nerfs that way she can still harass and have a reason to not want to play back.

People tend to hate on healing/shielding supports due to the lack of skill they take to play as well as the items they use which ok that's fine however instead of wanting to gut them into irrelevance why not post constructive changes to them that make them more interesting and give off a more skillful play pattern while still holding semblance of a heal/shield support cause that is a player fantasy and I'm pretty sure its not going to leave the support role anytime soon. We have tons of champions that have heals and shields and not get constantly bashed on nid ori lux kayle so on but they key factor is they don't revolve around healing and shielding as their sole and primary function. Nami would be a good example of a healing support that's healthy and generally not hated on the key factor between all of these champs is they don't rely on it to perform well within the game they offer other things mainly damage or CC and still heal and shield to function so its clearly possible. But just flaming janna soraka sona for being brainless and they should be gutted and forgotten isn't an answer and isn't constructive or helpful.

So once again just curious what people would do to change a lot of the enchanters to make them more skillfull and less braindead without killing them or losing the identity of the champion, and blaming it on ardent isn't really a good answer as a lot of these champs have been scrutinized way before ardent became a relevant item so clearly isn't just the item that's the issue.

60 Comments

XDDD9/30/2017, 1:26:06 AM17 votes

Champions that are allowed to be effective when played behind the backline (essentially a zero risk area) are honestly very flawed. For example, Soraka's weakness should be that she's susceptible to getting dove, lacking reliable hard CC but it's not considering she sits so far back it's out of sight range. Issue is similar with Janna and Lulu with it least prevalent on Sona.

To put it into context, a diver playing into these champs essentially takes large risk (going past the front line) and isn't rewarded for it because of instant heal/shields/peel. Whereas you've got 0 risk enchanters easily peeling you off from the backline and taking your LP. And it doesn't change if the dive is coordinated with multiple champs going in.

GrievousFetus9/30/2017, 12:56:04 AM7 votes

I want them removed via reworks. They're fundamentally flawed, outdated champs who don't belong in mobas. They're based off of the healer class from MMOs using the Trinity set up meant for PvE not PvP, primarily WoW, and are just resource batteries for the ADC. the majority of enchanters have most of their power budget in point and click heals, shields, and buffs. They rarely have to interact with champions besides their own ADC, they're just reservoirs of additional stats and effective health. Truepacifist made it to Plat 2 playing Janna without putting points into either Q or W, and ended games with a damage dealt stat of 0.

Thresh was the single best thing to ever happen to bot Lane. He was a schism, that fundamentally changed how supports work. All the supports before Thresh, except Ali and Blitz, were MMO healers that clicked shield on the ADC. Then thresh happened. After Thresh supports started being designed from the ground up for League with playmaking in mind, and unique playmaking utility. Thresh's lantern, Braum's shield, Bard's ult and tunnel, Taric's invincibility, Tahm's devour, that's what supports should be.

I'm okay with supports focused on healing or protection, but it can't be something as uninteractive and one dimensional as putting your shield/heals/buffs on your ADC while you otherwise stay away from the fight and don't touch anything else.

Teridax689/30/2017, 8:23:55 AM7 votes

To start, a Rioter did mention that ADC-related support itemization was being deliberately buffed to majorly OP amounts purely for the sake of Worlds, so players accusing the support-marksman duo to be too strong are entirely in the right, and nerfs to that are absolutely warranted.

What a lot of players are complaining about however, isn't necessarily that enchanters are fundamentally unhealthy as an idea (some do, but not all), but that currently the playstyle of many enchanters fundamentally lacks counterplay. Typically, most champions have counterplay in the form of skillshots or delays, so that their abilities can miss or be dodged, but supports can't really have that on their utility, as it would feel really poorly responsive. That is fine by itself, but the problem is that supports also lack counterplay in other forms: they're usually squishy, but that's not a very strong weakness when they have great defenses and a front line to constantly hide behind, and what little downtimes they have are quickly eliminated through crowd control (supports like Janna and Lulu can also reach 100% uptime, or close to it, on their utility). Because their utility is usually just a whole set of straight-up bonuses, all enchanters end up doing is simply making their targets stronger all the time without anything anyone else can do about it.

Effectively, what enchanters need is more ways for their opponents to interact with their power, in a manner that is adapted to their playstyle. Because typical forms of counterplay like delays, aiming, etc., i.e. counterplay that occurs before an ability takes effect, aren't really well-adapted to supports, a better form of interaction might be to implement counterplay that occurs after an effect has been applied. There are two different ways this can be implemented:

  • The first kind of post-hoc counterplay is to have power that can be made to fail if the opponent fulfills a certain condition: an example of this is actually Janna's AD bonus on her shield, which ends prematurely if the shield is broken. Part of why this isn't considered meaningful counterplay right now is because the shield itself is the main component, and is often absolutely huge, whereas the AD bonus, while strong, isn't spectacular on its own. If the emphasis were placed on the bonus, and the shield itself were made significantly weaker, for example, the counterplay would be more meaningful. Similarly, tying Lulu's on-hit effect on her E with the shield, and having Pix retreat to her if the shield were broken, would give her a little more interactivity as well.
  • The second kind of counterplay, which is a little more extreme, is to have double-edged effects, i.e. effects which carry an upside and a downside. A prime example of this is Bard's ult, which can be used to stun enemies and protect allies, but which can also do the opposite if used improperly or exploited by the enemy. Similarly, Kindred's ult may provide nothing but beneficial effects, but can also be used by enemies for their own protection. Effects like these tend to allow for abilities that are both extremely powerful and extremely versatile, as they can typically be used on allies and enemies, and this extra factor also adds a whole new level of decision-making, even in an environment where only the marksman is a valuable recipient of utility, as it puts emphasis on using the ability at the right time and the right target, allied or enemy, so that it doesn't backfire. Because this effect can provide a bonus to the enemy, that is an opportunity the latter can use to turn the support's power against them and their team.

The advantage to adding this kind of unreliability through enemy interaction is that it could allow support kits to be even stronger and even more spectacular when they use their abilities successfully. Often right now, the pinnacle of support achievement is simply to keep the marksman alive by spamming shields and other defenses, but with these kinds of effects support plays could carry legitimate suspense, in addition to being far more interactive. There's far more that can be talked about on the subject of enchanter design, but this comment is long enough as it is.

ChiTenshi9/30/2017, 7:38:45 AM5 votes

Here's a suggestion:

Make the strength of heals/shields be based on how close the Support is to the ADC.

Being closer to the ADC increases the strength of the heal/shield and vice versa. Enchanters would have to bring themselves out of the backlines and closer to the fight if they want a stronger influence.

This would make secondary effects on heals/shields more noticeable and worth considering. Soraka may heal her ADC knowing the heal won't be very strong but because she landed her Q: Starcall, she knows the bonus movement speed will get her ADC to safety.

warpenguin5559/30/2017, 3:17:09 PM4 votes

Most enchanters are too reliable without enough skill expression built into their kits. Nami and Taric are good examples of what enchanters should be. I've seen Nami's with great bubbles and Tidal Waves used both offensively and defensively, I've seen Taric's use Cosmic Radiance to disengage or to follow up an engage and use his stun to peel or to engage a fight. I've been left with a feeling of "This Nami/Taric is pretty good" before. I've also had the opposite where Nami/Taric miss their ults/stuns and lose the fight for their team. You don't get that with Janna/Lulu/Soraka. They only have defensive capabilities which are all either AOE or point and click. The only way to mess up is to get caught out or to spend the entire fight misclicking your heal/shield on the wrong ally. Soraka, Janna, and Lulu don't leave players thinking "Damn, that support is good", they leave people thinking "Why did I even bother trying to make a play?"

Privileged Jew9/30/2017, 4:14:35 AM3 votes

I want Riot to either rework them into non-enchanters, or dumpster them to the point that no one wants to use them anymore.

As a Zyra support main it is the most frustrating thing to go up against an enchanter like Soraka or Sona. It actually takes skill to land my abilities and get a rotation off on the enemy ADC. Meanwhile Soraka presses W and suddenly 75% of my damage from the poke is negated.

Then, she buys an ardent censer and artificially gives her adc the ability to win engagements despite doing nothing all early game except pressing W and R to keep the adc from feeding.

It is completely uninteractive, lacking of skill, and lacking any real form of counterplay.

Number-based heals and shields should be done away with in this game. There should be no common ground or balance between other mechanics and shields/heals. They shouldn't take a champion that is 50% skill-based and make them 75% skill-based. They should just remove the shields/heals entirely and make it 100% reliant on actual skill.

I don't have anything against spellshields, temporary invincibility, etc though.

Athenes Lulu9/30/2017, 6:15:52 AM2 votes

I just want Lulu to revolve around making meaningful choices instead of throwing everything onto one champion, sit back, do absolutely nothing else, and get free wins.

This can apply to most other supports where proper timing and decision making should be key. Too bad right now people fuck that up completely, and get away anyways.

Linna Excel9/30/2017, 1:26:21 AM2 votes

100% more heals and shields. Also an enchanter/battlemage or battlemage/enchanter.

AmetDeCrypt9/30/2017, 12:45:55 AM2 votes

the problem is it's kind of frustrating when the kiddies pick up mid and expect to be able to kill someone only to have that expectation not come true because someone is keeping them topped off. I think people hate tanks less because there's the impression they need to put themselves on the line in order to protect and peel. not so with a wave of my finger and a flick of my (poultry produce) one click from me will fix you quick. that's why I like the things riot does to implement more meaning into the shields. lulu's shield removes her passive autos (and let me tell you a lulu trade aa q aa aa hurts like hell with hybrid pen runes) and she can MISS a point and click skill for pete's sake if the wrong target stands over the one she wants to hit. nami's heal can be used aggressively for more damage or defensively depending on the cast target. soraka drains health from herself to give it to allies. rakan has to get within range endangering himself as well. and janna.... uh actually noting really that should probably have been looked at in the update before the cooldown...

anyway the thing I think riot needs to focus on is the feeling of a support giving something up other than an intangable cooldown to protect their allies. perhaps nami could slow herself to mirror her passive. janna could lose her new passive auto enhance temporarily. or lulu could have her base ad lowered and passive damage balanced up lategame or even the scaling up more so she's even more pitiful on her own.

Steelflame9/30/2017, 6:36:35 AM2 votes

The biggest problem of the enchanter class is that they can frequently function from outside of the range anyone can interact with them at, OR they completely nullify your ability to fight for multiple seconds in a row, which is frequently a death sentence thanks to how ridiculous damage is nowadays.

They effectively require you to have enough damage to flat out 1 shot the target they are trying to protect, before either the enchanter them-self or the target you are trying to kill can react.

The best way I can think of fixing enchanters would be to give them less SELFISH power, and more supportive power, and make them easier to combat, but have greater rewards for actually attempting to fight. One of the easiest ways to do this would be by making it so that they have reduced effectiveness on self heals/shields in many cases, and are solid in a fight, but actually HAVE to fight you to have their full power. Soraka is a great example of this, just not quite as far as it should be. My only real issue with Soraka is that if you do the Warmogs setup she can turn into a veritable fountain of HP that is solidly durable, which I consider a bit counter-intuitive to what her weakness SHOULD be. If her heal counted as champion combat damage for Warmog's sake I'd consider all of my issues with her mostly resolved. Perhaps remove a little more of her base W heal and put it into Rejuvenation, AND make it so that if she heals a target with rejuvenation on them already it bulk heals the remainder that the rejuvenation would have healed them, making her a really powerful combat healer, but needing said combat to actually do said combat healing.

If we were to extrapolate this across a few other champs as ideas, here is the type of things I could think being good.

  1. Lulu. Whimsy turned into a skillshot that can be evaded, or else requiring her to land X hits on you before she can target you with it, or perhaps require the target to be Pix'd by E and then W cast on them, or require them to be slowed by Lulu before they can be poly'd. Just something to give the skill itself counterplay in some form, because it severely lacks it. If you have casted Pix, Help! on an ally, and land both shots of Glitterlance on a champion, it should refresh the shield's health, giving a solid combat amp in sustained combat assuming Lulu herself is close enough to utilize it.

  2. Nami. Maybe just make it so that she only gets the full value self-heal if the wave bounces to her, and didn't originate from her. I'm not even sure if this is necessary, but if it is done, you could afford to drop the mana cost on it as a fair compensation, because honestly that mana cost is way out of line IMO. She doesn't need a nerf atm, unlike other Enchanters, as she only is at a 49.5% win rate in an enchanter meta that she should be dominating in where every other enchanter is at a 54%+ win rate.

  3. Janna. Is good. They just gotta get the numbers tuned to the point she isn't OP, but the basic idea of the rework they just gave her was the right one.

  4. Sona. Maybe make W cast self-heal weaker, but if she uses her W powercord she gets a full value W heal (AKA as if she was on 1 HP) for herself assuming we stay on the same basic mechanics.

    I sorta feel she needs a rework of her passive though on a larger scale. Rather than charge up 3 and then have powercord ready to go based on last spell cast, it should probably be more like skill 1, skill 2, empowered skill 3, and if you AA, you get a Powercord effect, then back to skill 1, skill 2, empowered skill 3, ect. Effectively, if you don't use the powercord, you lose the powercord, but the actual skill itself is empowered too and doesn't depend on the powercord for the empowered effect. An example of this would be her base Q acting similar to her current Q, but her empowered Q would also grant adaptive AD/AP on the aura as long as you were in it, and the Powercord would be similar to current, maybe a smidge stronger, base W would change to only be a stronger shield, but the empowered W aura would also heal everyone, and if she procs her Powercord AA the heal occur a second time to anyone within the aura. E would get a longer early game duration, and powercord Es get the much stronger aura MS boost at the start decaying to the normal E MS boost. Powercord AA would refresh the full speed of the Powercord E, and slow the target. Powercords should passively build up if you are NOT casting for a duration. I'd say early game a powercord stack could take 15 seconds of no cast to gain a single stack of Powercord, and scale down to 9 lategame (Perhaps each ult rank dropping it by 2 seconds for the free stack), and it would charge up to 2 stacks (So that next ability is empowered). Finally, Powercord AAs can only be proc'd on champions, Large minions, or Large and Epic Monsters. Ultimately, this puts pressure on her to actually be smart about her skill order in casting, and not just spam all her keys and AA if she is on a good Powercord for her current situation. It also puts a bit of positioning pressure for her W powercord, as to get the heal proc on allies she has to be next to them for when she powercord AAs to trigger the heal a second time.

sky blower9/30/2017, 6:23:16 AM1 votes

I would suggest changing heal and shield into skill-shots. Like firing a bolt that heals people on the path after released or a certain amount of time. Thus more skill is required for those enchanters. Also it allows for more play-makings such as intentional delayed healing which could save lives sometimes.

AirKingNeo9/30/2017, 3:31:18 AM1 votes

Easy to kill when caught (unable to buy locket), either nerf their peeling or nerf lifesteal, Janna not being an anti-melee champion, and Lulu's polymorph duration to be reduced.

That's about it.

Xion The XIV9/30/2017, 3:13:38 PM1 votes

Frankly I just want Sona to get buffed healing. Her heals are just garbage. 115 (+25% Ability Power) heal + 130 (+30% Ability Power) Shield. This is the equivalent of blocking 1 auto attack without crit. But with so many 70% to 100% crit builds running around she is effectually useless. And the fact you need to be in Melee range for them to get the shield is just wow. I would rather have it set that it only shields and heals 1 person and buff that instead of having a crap heal and a crap aoe shield.

Laustin Space9/30/2017, 1:33:29 AM1 votes

People just don't want enchanters to be the one all be all best strategy to win. Realistically there is no way to make them less brain dead except by possible making mana management a much bigger struggle or by making a lot more shields and utility less point and click capable(Lux's shield rather than karma's for instance) and I doubt anyone really wants that.