[Diamond Design] What's the Deal With Silences?

Joushi·Jan 19, 2015·34 votes·5,260 views

Hello everyone!

Sorry about last week’s post. Due to the nature of my schedule, I didn’t have a lot of time to read up on people’s comments/criticisms/suggestions of my article, and I’m not super sure I’ll be able to reliably do that in a reasonable amount of time. I’ll do my best though! For those that missed it, you can find last week’s post here.

Like I said last week, I’m going to try and continue putting these out on a weekly basis on Sundays, but much like IronStylus likes to say, NO PROMISES. For the poll from the previous article, I asked what kind of topics you guys were interested in, and while there was some variance, the main thing I took from it is you guys will like anything I write! Just kidding of course, but the votes were split fairly evenly so I’m gonna go ahead and write about something I felt inspired to write about. It doesn’t mean I’m never going to write about the other things though.

With that out of the way, let’s get going. Today’s topic is…

http://th06.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/f/2013/265/8/6/lol___silence_is_golden_by_cubehero-d6nbons.jpg -fanart by cubehero

#What’s the Deal With Silences?

As many of you have surely noticed, Riot has removed many of the silences that a number of characters used to have. Talon, Kassadin, and LeBlanc, our prayers reach out to you. Also Viktor. At the same time, a bunch of characters still have silences. Today we’re going to be looking at this particular kind of crowd control and taking a look at acceptable design policies surrounding it.

#What Does a Silence Do?

The first place to start is obviously by defining our terms. What does a silence do that differentiates it from other crowd control? Simply put, a silence prevents you from using abilities, and breaks channels. It differentiates itself from a stun because it allows you to continue moving while you can’t use abilities. Pretty easy concept right? Good. Moving on.

http://images.gameskinny.com/gameskinny/beabd6b620cb866f80da0c0a9b8b0be9.jpg

#Champions with Silence Removed

Kassadin

Kassadin, oh Kassadin. Before his rework, Kassadin was picked or banned in over 90% of competitive play, and at one point I remember it being said that in normals (which included blind pick) Kassadin boasted over 100% pick/ban rate because he was often picked on both teams. Why was Kassadin so popular? Obviously a big part of this was his mobility, but that’s not what they removed from his kit. Kassadin’s other problem was his ability to easily burst down a target with little to no counterplay or consequences. A significant part of this was the silence he had built into his kit. Since Kassadin was usually taken into the mid lane, where champions tended to have most of their damage tied up in abilities, having a second or two to output your damage before your opponent really had any opportunity to counterattack was massive.

Kassadin’s silence was also targeted, and ranged. Kassadin could nullify a significant amount of harass he took, farm, and use it as a damage tool, all on a relatively short cooldown. Another problem with Kassadin’s silence is found in the definition we used up above. Silences allow you to continue moving while you’re silenced. Kassadin had a powerful AoE slow attached to another ability, allowing him to not only prevent you from effectively fighting back, but also to prevent you from effectively running away.

LeBlanc

Much like Kassadin before her, LeBlanc had her time in the sun, where she used to dominate mid lane due to a mix of her incredible mobility and ability to quickly kill a target and escape. Much like Kassadin, LeBlanc had a consistent, low counterplay means with which to apply a silence by comboing with another ability, often her gapcloser. What else did she have in common with Kassadin? Besides the ability to instantly destroy a target, she also violated the core idea of the silence by having another form of crowd control that would prevent the target from moving.

Talon

This thread is rather interesting to me, talking about the state of Talon back during the League of Black Cleavers. Within, Xypherous is talking about how Talon consistently had a high win rate, but was rarely touched. While I may be reading incorrectly here, it does reinforce my belief that Riot is less likely to touch the numbers on champions that are underplayed even if they are significantly strong or weak, on account of they don’t affect as much of the playerbase.

Back on topic though! What do Talon, LeBlanc, and Kassadin all have in common? Besides the letter “N” in their names, they all have gapclosers, targeted silences, powerful slows, and the ability to instantly kill their target before they have the opportunity to respond. Talon has the added bonus of not being able to be autoattacked either, due to the nature of him being invisible.

What Does it MEAN?

To quote Riot context posts, these “high-burst low-counterplay assassins” needed to have their silences removed so that “at least her opponents can fight back”. You’ll notice in the reworks to these champions that all of them kept the crowd control they otherwise had, and Talon was even compensated with a slow on his gapcloser instead of a silence. While these characters still retain their ability to destroy a target nearly instantly, the target now has an option to fight back.

http://www.leagueoflegendsskins.com/images/champions/splash/Blitzcrank_5.jpg

#Characters Who Still Have Silences

But the question then becomes, why do some characters still get to have silences? We’ll take a look at those now. The problems we identified with silences above are these:

Targeted, very reliable
Combined with other form of CC
Combined with ability to instantly burst down a target

Definitely Not Blitzcrank

Blitzcrank’s ultimate is such a powerful ability, that I believe on almost any other kit would be the iconic ability. All champions within a certain range of Blitz are silenced and take damage. While very reliable and combined with another form of crowd control, the lack of ability to instantly destroy a target (inb4 AP Blitz mains call me out here) allows this ability to go largely unnoticed by large sections of the population and thereby receive a pass.

Cho’Gath

Wow. Cho’Gath’s silence is mixed with all three of the primary problems we identified! While not guaranteed, it is very reliable, and combined with another form of CC. Lastly, Cho’Gath can instantly kill his target when he lands his full combo. I’m not entirely sure why this silence is still in the game, other than the inconsistency of his other form of crowd control, and going with the idea that Riot doesn’t touch champions that don’t see a lot of play. It also has a significant cooldown (13 seconds with no CDR, 7.8 seconds with 40%) and isn’t guaranteed, but I still believe it could use a rework.

Fiddlesticks

Fiddlesticks is one of the hardest silences to justify. It fulfills all of the problems we initially laid out, and is even combined with the gapcloser the other changed silences were also combined with. Fiddlesticks can burst down a single target, has another very powerful form of crowd control, and is targeted. While a little unreliable afterwards, hitting a different target than the initial one you intended requires an important misclick. I am frankly very surprised that this silence is still in the game, and believe it should be removed, or otherwise changed.

Garen

Garen has two of the mentioned problems above, but his silence has some serious weakness built into it. The first is that in order to use it, he has to hit his target with a melee autoattack. As a champion with a weak gapcloser (speed boost), almost any form of crowd control or dash by an opposing player will prevent him from hitting his target, making it targeted, yet unreliable. It is also not paired with any other form of crowd control, apart from maybe Randuin’s Omen. While very powerful if Garen manages to hit his target with it, the weaknesses inherent in the kit allow this ability to still be in the game.

Malzahar

Malzahar’s silence similarly suffers from some serious weaknesses which allow it to continue being seen. While it can be used offensively, it can be a difficult skillshot to hit due to the slowness and odd targeting format, and is generally better used as a defensive tool rather than an aggressive one. However, it is also coupled with a very strong ability for bursting down a target from 100 to 0, but due to the nature of this skillshot’s inconsistency, it can still be allowed to remain.

Soraka

Soraka is unusual in that while her old kit had a silence, her new kit continues to have one. However, a few important differences have been made. The original ability was a targeted silence that could also be used to restore an ally’s mana. The targeted, ranged nature made Soraka, especially in a solo lane, very non-interactive for her opponents. The new ability, while still a silence, functions similarly to Swain’s Nevermove. Anyone standing in the Equinox is silenced, but this is limited by the range of the ability, and her opponent can simply move out of the pool. This creates a zone of control for Soraka’s team, and importantly, gives her opponent a way to end the silence. While the ability does have some offensive capability, it is again, primarily used as a defensive tool.

Honorable Mention: Viktor

Viktor’s rework saw his silence on his ultimate removed, and replaced with a functionality like Kassadin’s where it could still interrupt channeled abilities. As I believe this was the intention of the ability in the first place (I think it was .25 seconds?) this is simply a better way to code what they had tried to do in the first place.

http://loldb.gameguyz.com/images/skins_big_skin_fid_path/ryze-professor.jpg

#So What Have We Learned?

Well obviously, silences are a weird form of crowd control. Most of the champions who have silences are, or have been, predominantly anti-mages. They have also had numerous problems surrounding their kits, due to the nature of low counterplay to their abilities, since the shortest duration silence affects the entire team and is .5 seconds (Blitzcrank), while Garen and Cho’Gath silence their opponent for a full 2.5 seconds. Malzahar’s is even longer, scaling up to a full 3 seconds. This duration is part of the problem with their design, as other crowd control that lasts similar lengths of time (Morgana’s binding, Rammus’ taunt, Fiddlesticks’ fear, Zilean’s slow) similarly provide a lack of counterplay.

My belief is that silences should be predominantly defensive abilities. We see fairly successful designs for silences in Soraka and Malzahar, who have the ability to use their silences offensively, but are much more potent when used in a defensive manner. At the same time, silences can be offensive if they are difficult to land or hard to combo off of. Garen is the most obvious example of this. Champions like Fiddlesticks and Cho’Gath do not have well designed silences, as their silence is fairly offensive in design, while also being quite consistent and mixed with strong burst.

The other problem with silences is that they remove the ability for a target to use their “trump cards.” The champions this particular crowd control is primarily aimed at, mages and some tanks and bruisers, no longer have a real means of choosing to fight or flight, especially since the only silence listed without a follow-up or lead-in crowd control is Garen’s. By preventing the target from using Flash, or Zhonya’s if they have it, players are left with little recourse if their support doesn’t have a Mikael’s. Meanwhile, the champions that this crowd control is not aimed at, autoattackers like Marksmen and other bruisers/tanks, either don’t care at all about being silenced, or have an item specifically designed for them to remove it in the form of Quicksilver Sash.

http://lolmerchandise.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/n9i4gxq2.jpg

#Another Kind of Crowd Control

There’s another “primal” form of crowd control that we don’t see a lot of. But first let me explain primal crowd control. Primal crowd control is the basic crowd control that others are made up of. These are blind, root (snare), silence, slow, forced action, attack speed slow, knocks, and what I like to call pacify. Pacify is the prevention of autoattacks entirely. Thus stuns are a combination of root, silence, and pacify. Wither is an attack speed slow and a movement speed slow.

We see a fair amount of all of these “primal” crowd controls except for pacifies. The only champion that has strictly a pacify is Amumu, and his is coupled with a root. Perhaps making this form of crowd control more common would make silences feel more fair, as casters are more strongly targeted in terms of crowd control than their autoattacking counterparts.

#Conclusions

Unfortunately I don’t really have good further suggestions on this topic, as I don’t find any good candidates in the current list of champions where adding a silence to their current kit would be healthy for the character. Perhaps changing Karma’s empowered Q to have a silence instead of a slow would be acceptable?

FOOD FOR THOUGHT: Are there examples of kits that you think could do with a silence? Are there kits you think could do with a PACIFY? Let me know in the comments below!

Hey guys hope you enjoyed. Sorry this is coming out so late in the day, but here it is anyway! Once again I’m going to include a poll with some ideas I’m considering for next week, go ahead and vote, but NO PROMISES.

Thanks for reading and I’ll see you guys next week!

Edit: Central hub for the series. Go find the other things I've written about and suggest topics here!

Edit 2: Hey guys, there's a number of times where people will point out something I said that might be factually incorrect or poorly worded. While I won't be changing the content of the article please don't hesitate to call me out on it! I'm not perfect, and I don't pretend to be. Just try and check to see if someone has already mentioned it first.

Edit 2b: Hey guys, as it has been noted multiple times, yes you're right. Lulu does have a pacify! Because I'm lazy I'm just gonna write this here, I was just being bad at writing. I agree Lulu has a pacify, the distinction I was trying to make was that Amumu has a pacify, but doesn't have a silence built into the same ability! Lulu prevents you from both casting spells and autoattacking (also every stun) but Amumu is the only one that lets you use spells but not autoattack.

54 Comments

Lord DusteonJan 19, 201513 votes

I think the reason Cho still has his silence is because his only reliable way of catching up to someone is to land Q. The problem is, his Q can easily be walked out of, and has some wonky detection at the edges (seeing someone visibly getting impaled by spikes but not having any effect hurts). I think it's due at least in part to this bad gapclosing that he keeps the extremely long and easy to land silence.

(Also, the assassins listed all had what amounted to a targeted gapcloser and a silence (LeBlanc and Kassadin even got the pros of theirs being escapes to), which none of these champions really have).

junglerboy16Jan 19, 20156 votes

Agreed. Cho's silence is in my opinion relatively healthy, because he, like you said, has no gap closer at all. His silence would be really broken if he could dash up to you, but its reliability, as the OP put it, is actually not that great since it requires a significant amount of positioning and a degree of ambush to use outside of a straight up duel (and most people don't duel a Cho'gath, especially when he has ult or if he is built AP).

Fiddlesticks though, I'm not sure about. He kind of needs it to function at all though, so it shouldn't be removed. That and they did just nerf it to only apply once per cast, meaning it is considerably shorter on average.

JoushiJan 19, 20153 votes

Thanks for reading guys, and I agree with everything said here pretty much. You'll notice that a lot of the problems with designs that I'll look at tend to come from older champion kits. Both Fiddlesticks and Cho'Gath are from 2009. Part of the problem with Cho'Gath in particular is he doesn't have a strong identity on what exactly he does... Is he a burst mage? Is he a tank? Is he a little bit of both? There isn't exactly a clear answer and I think we'll definitely see at least some change in how his silence works when that update happens.

This is true, I forgot about the change to Fiddlesticks! Definitely an upgrade.

OrbvJan 19, 20152 votes

I'm mostly confident in the forum archives, long ago, that they said that they had intended for Cho'gath to be a disruptor, with the true damage ult being there to make people fearful that he's still in the fight, the CC to disrupt, and the E for relatively consistent damage while he waits on Q and W again. If I find it I'll post it.

One of the greatest things I like about Cho is that his abilities make sense. His Q pushes upwards, it clearly knocks the champion up (compared to Gragas and Sejuani...charging at someone doesn't knock them up =/), when he screams, it silences all around because he's that loud (genius), he obviously eats for his ult, and because he has so many ligaments we can only assume some of them must shoot spikes out. Then to top it off, he gets visually bigger to prevent skillshots from hitting targets. He was so well thought out. It's a shame that his identity is often confused. I only play him AP because his ratios are so high, but he realistically should be building survivability and CDR if you have 2 dedicated damage dealers on your team already. But that causes the issue of another play choosing a tank champion, and then your team does no damage, eh.

Vistha KaiJan 19, 20154 votes

Versality =/= lack of identity.

Like Orbv, said, he actually is well pieced together as a champion, unlike say... Evelynn who lost her identity due to constant nerfs in Season 3 and Season 4. "Is she a tank? Is she an assassin? Bruiser? Mage? AP? AD? What the hell am I playing right now?"

TheI3igDaddyJan 20, 20151 votes

Cho keeps his silence because he's supposed to disrupt team's with his silence and not really use it to assassinate someone. Cho is also immobile and the only threat he has is directly around him along with the 950 range of a delayed skillshot. If you outrun Cho, his silence doesn't mean anything.

But when Kass and LB are hopping around the map towards you, you can't really evade those silences, and then they kill you.

theDeblinJan 19, 20152 votes

Also, it's a narrow cone skillshot that you primarily use in close melee.

I wouldn't necessarily say it's hard to land, but there's a pretty massive potential to flat-out miss with it if you're in range to proc your spikes/devour (which you usually want to do even if you've gone bruiser or full tank late game). Not really comparable to... well, what you're comparing it to. Kass' was ostensibly similar, but the fact that you could pop it form a range where the cone was pretty much guaranteed unless they used an actual ability to dodge and then blip in to smack them made it effectively play very differently.

Similarly, I think Fiddle's bouncy silence hasn't been nerfed/removed because of the potential for secondary targets to avoid it by being in a crowd.

AetherKingdomJan 19, 20156 votes

I think Cho's 3 second silence is actual cancer.

SociopathFriendJan 19, 20154 votes

Interesting article and a fun read.

Although I happen to disagree on your Cho'Gath reasoning. Cho can't 100-0 hardly anyone unless he's super fed. (badum, tss).

As you may have noticed, and you alluded to, all 3 of the champions who had silences taken from them were Assassin champs that dashed to the enemy, silenced them, then either killed them or walked away.

Riot removed the silences to give some counterplay against the enemy champions. As a mid main- I can safely say Talon was stupidly bullshit before his silence was removed. He'd jump to you, hit you a few times, then walk away while all you could do was helplessly auto after him. You'd be at half-health while he took barely 100 damage.

Leblanc and Kassadin had a similar problem, a free "I win this trade" button they could press when they engaged.

JoushiJan 20, 20151 votes

Thanks!

While I do agree that Cho'Gath usually won't be able to 100-0 you, there are still times when you're sitting with a substantial health bar and the enemy Cho'Gath happened to be building AP. You get hit by Rupture and suddenly you're dead. While this is more difficult to pull off than those assassins, it can still be frustrating to play against.

Sailor MintJan 19, 20153 votes

Fiddlestick's Dark Wind was changed to only silence once per champion.

BetaDude40Jan 19, 20151 votes

No, it doesn't silence only once per champion, it just means it prioritizes champs that haven't been hit yet. If there's a minion wave near 2 champions, the crow will start bouncing off minions, but if there's only 2 champions standing next to each other, then the crow will still bounce between the two.

At least, I think I read the patch notes correctly. I haven't played Fiddlesticks after the update, so I don't entirely know if this is true

Silents429Jan 19, 20151 votes

No, It does that, but his E also now only silences a target once even if they are hit multiple times.

junglerboy16Jan 19, 20151 votes

You're right, except that has always been like that. The new effect is that even when it bounces between two champions like that, it can only silence them each once instead of once per bounce.

Sailor MintJan 19, 20151 votes

E - Dark Wind

Now prioritizes targets not yet hit by Dark Wind

Dark Wind can still hit targets multiple times, but it will now only silence them once
SILENCE DURATION 1.2 seconds ⇒ 1.25 seconds

Source: Patch 4.21 patch notes).

Mr SlowdeathJan 19, 20153 votes

@pacify: I would add Teemo and Quinn's blinds to this category, and of the two, Quinn is the biggest offender. Teemo's kit viewed as a whole is what makes him annoying, but if we specifically compare the two Blinds, Quinn's gives us the least counterplay because we can use pink ward, positioning or oracle's lens to ensure Teemo doesn't add any other CC to his Blind. In fact, Teemo's Blind is better on defense than offense, and we've seen that usage of silence kept in the game. Quinn's blind should be removed as it checks all three of the 'major problem' boxes off. It's more offensively inclined and quite reliable, she has a movement speed slow, and she has high burst potential. I'm not saying they should nerf Quinn, but it's clear that she's lacking counterplay in the 'pacify' department.

EDIT: You know what? This topic is actually a subcategory of "counterplay", so I think to find good candidates for a healthy silence, you should look at champions than can be more "outplayed" than others. Trundle for example could probably benefit from a small silence on his Q-bite instead of the slow that's there now. That puts him in the same spot as Garen I'd think. Alternatively, if his E-pillar silenced instead of slowing enemies, he could use that to stop engages or escapes more effectively. I don't know what role Trundle is actually filling right now, but he doesn't seem to be doing that well.

junglerboy16Jan 19, 20152 votes

Trundle's Q is in a great spot right now, since the micro slow actually allows for better sticking power. Changing it to a silence is unnecessary since he can already cancel channeled spells with his pillar, and he would never be silencing people for any other reason. Getting your leg bitten by a giant blue troll would slow you down, not make you go mute (you'd probably be screaming in agony instead).

Mr SlowdeathJan 19, 20151 votes

So he's in a good spot when he's hardly played? :/

junglerboy16Jan 19, 20152 votes

He is a counter pick champion. He is strong when the champions he counters are strong. Right now, AD bruisers aren't amazing, so he isn't needed to counter them. He still is fantastic in the jungle because of his passive. Just because most people playing League don't appreciate the strength of a champion at any given time doesn't mean they are in need of buffs. Trundle has an EXTREMELY balanced kit, which is another reason he doesn't see much play. He is never brokenly OP, so 80% of people who would play him don't because they want this month's freelo.

People would never have guessed, "you know, I'm going to predict that Kat will be really strong at the end of season 4." just by looking at the picks at the start of the season. People never think a champion will be strong until they see a pro play them or they play them on their own already, because here in America, 95% of our population is pampered into thinking everything is all about winning, not about experimenting, not about having fun, not about creativity. The reason Koreans always dominate the Pro scene is that they are smart enough to "break metas" and try stuff that you would normally call trolling in the USA, and they make it work how they want it to. I play Trundle, and because I know how he works and don't simply say, "Well nobody else picks him", I win.

TL;DR: Not played=/=Poor spot.

Mr SlowdeathJan 19, 20151 votes

I didn't say that Trundle needs a silence, I said, " I think to find good candidates for a healthy silence, you should look at champions that can be more outplayed than others" Whether anyone believes Trundle should or shouldn't have a silence was not the point. The point was that his kit has enough room for counterplay to include a short silence without breaking it. I personally find Trundle severely lacking because he's in a role that counters that role, which means they made him worse at that role to compensate so that he isn't as you say "brokenly OP". It's manageable in lane, but I found myself putting a lot of effort into playing my old favorite Trundle and just barely scraping by. And I'm not American. I was playing Frozen Heart Sion, Brutalizer Graves, etc etc before I knew the challengers were doing it. I switch things up, I read guides and still deviate from them. I play Xerath support. My opinion stays the same. Trundle is in an awkward place. I'm going out on a limb here saying that Caitlynn is more or less in the spot where I'd like Trundle to be.

ProfDrDeathJan 19, 20153 votes

But the question then becomes, why do some characters still get to have silences? We’ll take a look at those now. The problems we identified with silences above are these:
Targeted, very reliable
Combined with other form of CC
Combined with ability to instantly burst down a target

I disagree with your list somewhat.

Targeted, very reliable

Would add long-ranged to that point. Garen's silence, for example, is targeted and reliable, but can only applied in close combat. Cho's silence is rather short-ranged and attached to a skillshot, which means that only being in melee range to Cho guarantees you being hit. And part of Cho's identity is that you'd generally want to avoid coming into melee range with him - you are certain to be silenced, take extra damage from spikes and are at risk of getting feasted on if you do.

Combined with other forms of CC.

That is not as much of a problem if the one with the silence could not reliably burst you down while the silence / CC lasts. Soraka, for example - Equinox snares you at the end of the silence if you're still in the zone, and she also possess a slow - but she cannot burst you down or even seriously dent your HP while it lasts.

Combined with ability to instantly burst down a target

This, I feel, is one of the main reasons the silences were removed from LB's, Kassa's and Talon's kits. They could just mow you down in the window you were silenced in, leaving you no opportune way to react to it.

The second main reason is tied to something you did not mention at all - hypermobility. All three champions which had their silences removed have long range blinks or dashes in their kits, enabling them to follow up on their silences whenever they want to. This is not true for the other silence champions.

Garen needs to come into melee range
Cho's silence is short-ranged enough that he won't hit you if you keep your distance - and dodge the Rupture. If you walk into him in a way that allows him to silence, then Rupture you, well - sucks to be you. He cannot, barring Flash, suddenly lunge forward into your face and silence you.
Blitzcrank, as you said, will probably not burst you if he silences you - and the silence is pretty short, too. Unless you're his main target, you will only be silenced for 0.5 seconds.
Malza's silence is fairly telegraphed, and his only long-ranged tool. Most of the time, if he hits you with it, he'll need the time to get into your ranged for more stuff. No mobilty.
Fiddlesticks - no reliable burst. Yes, getting 2-man crow-ed hurts, and drain and crowstorm do huge damage over time, but that damage takes way longer to apply than the silence's duration.

Rinky DinkyJan 19, 20152 votes

Fiddlesticks and cho have no mobility, thus the silence remaining.

Kass and Leblanc are still very strong without silence, the silence was uneeded, and really just toxic on a kit such as theirs.

Talon now needs a better/more reliable escape. He is amazing at killing a target, but is now a kamakazi assassin.

Fiddle and Cho would be gutter trash without their silences. Fiddles silence allows him to ensure that he is not cc'd during his drain. As soon as the silence ends, so does he, unless he has Zhonya's or the enemy has no cc.

Cho's silence allows him to be useful, even if behind or if building full tank. Without it, full AP feast or Famine Cho'gath would be the only real way to play him, or he just wouldnt be played at all.

VerandureJan 19, 20152 votes

I disagree with your definition of Primal Crowd Control. Specifically, I feel that snare and slow are unified -- a snare is a 100% slow -- and pacify (by your definition) is a 100% auto-attack speed slow.

Slow Silence Blind Attack speed Slow Displacement Forced Action

Snare is a 100% slow Pacify is a 100% attack speed slow Knockback is displacement + forced action (movement) Stun is a 100% slow + silence + attack speed slow Polymorph is a slow + silence + attack speed slow Fear is a slow + silence + attack speed slow + forced action

The argument could be given that displacement is simply a stronger stun (since it can't be cleansed nor reduced by tenacity).

JoushiJan 19, 20151 votes

I actually like this idea better better than the one I put in all regards but one.

Slows don't prevent you from using abilities that move you (flash/dashes/etc) where roots do.

Yandere CarryJan 19, 20152 votes

by your definition blind would be pacify

JoushiJan 19, 20152 votes

There are subtle distinctions though. Blind won't stop a number of on-hit effects from being applied, such Silver Bolts, Riven's Runic Blade, Shen's Ki Strike, and on hit crowd control like Xin Zhao's knock up or Garen's silence. So in fact these do have important, but subtle, differences.

Yandere CarryJan 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

There are subtle distinctions though. Blind won't stop a number of on-hit effects from being applied, such Silver Bolts, Riven's Runic Blade, Shen's Ki Strike, and on hit crowd control like Xin Zhao's knock up or Garen's silence. So in fact these do have important, but subtle, differences.

I don't know. I feel like, while probably working as intended, should actually be the case. I honestly think that blind is misleading in that way. It should stop those on-hit effects even though it doesn't.

Knight DevoutJan 19, 20152 votes

Oh my God! It's Godzilla!

I'm inclined to agree that Cho'gath kit is quite strong design wise, but he is kept in check by how kitable he is, and the HEAVY shift in balance from defense to offense. Season 2 cho'gath could survive a 4 man ganks while chipping away at their health with vorpal spikes and rupture, and his most obvious counter to his insane defense, Vayne, was very weak once hit by rupture as she couldn't reposition with Tumble.It's no longer so in league of blackcleaversbotrkranduinnerfsfuckthewarmog , so he is not fine design wise, but balance wise? He's cool. The change to his ult and smite could be a little over the top, but we will see.

#Caw! Caw! Caw! Nothing big to say here on the silence, other than it's the most annoying thing to deal with in aram. In Summoner's rift, he really shows his age. He has a cool concept, but he has a tons of outdated content, like his passive, an on target long-duration hard cc, and an AoE silence. Also, his ult insane damage and AP ratios take a toll on his power budget. But even with him, Riot policy is "not fix what is not broken".

#Pacify? is that a thing? Not to call you out on this one, but I think the difference between blinds and pacify is little, but substantial. Basically, blind prevent your autoattacks from hitting, while pacify prevent your autoattack from starting. However, champions like kayle, or ravenous hydra/Udyr Phoenix AoE still work . This made Teemo's players really angry when I played Kayle at low levels.

So, should we keep them separated? I think it's not ideal, but at the moment it works, plus some abilities would be a little awkward (Blinding assault makes little sense as a pacifying assault, and Amumu blinding people? What does he do, throws sand in their eyes?). So, if we keep them, which champion could have a pacify? The first that come to mind are champion who are supposed to be anti-ad or to counter assassins and melee champions, such as Taric. Of course, separating the cc in more types allow more room for players to make their pick, but also makes champion pick more relevant, which is kinda against riot principle, but it is still important, rightfully so. (ever tried to play in a team without in combat ultimates? You lose by default unless you massively win the midgame).

JoushiJan 20, 20151 votes

Surprised this hasn't been upvoted at all.

Knight DevoutJan 20, 20151 votes

aww , thanks :D

qetzelJan 19, 20152 votes

I like this thread. I would like it even more if a Rioter showed up to say where you are wrong and, more importantly, where you are right.

A thread like this is awesome. Please keep it up. I learnt something about LoL today.

kitcat300Jan 19, 20151 votes

Yeah, I'm surprised a rioter hadn't given their oppinons on the previous two either.

JoushiJan 21, 20152 votes

Thanks guys, definitely a bit of a goal for this series eventually :P

ResiakedrømJan 19, 20151 votes

The problem I have with Garen's silence is that it is a channel and doesn't feel satisfying to use when the enemy kennen lightning rushes away even tho you have "silenced" her

JoushiJan 19, 20151 votes

Could you perhaps explain this a little bit? Garen's silence isn't channeled in the traditional sense like Katarina's Death Lotus or Shen's Stand United (both ultimates)

I do agree that it can feel nonintuitive that you can't stop those "status effect" abilities like Crowstorm or Lightning Rush, but I also think they are working as intended.

KingsgraveJan 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Could you perhaps explain this a little bit? Garen's silence isn't channeled in the traditional sense like Katarina's Death Lotus or Shen's Stand United (both ultimates)

I do agree that it can feel nonintuitive that you can't stop those "status effect" abilities like Crowstorm or Lightning Rush, but I also think they are working as intended.

Garen's Q has a delay to it which is really annoying

junglerboy16Jan 19, 20152 votes

No, what you mean is that it doesn't cancel non-channeled abilities, which is exactly how it is supposed to work. If Kennen was already lightning dashing away, then your silence won't stop it. If Fiddlesticks already cast crow storm, you can't cancel it after the channel. Garen's silence isn't channeled at all, it just doesn't cancel non channeled abilities.

1st HanarSpectreJan 19, 20151 votes

it does reinforce my belief that Riot is less likely to touch the numbers on champions that are underplayed even if they are significantly strong or weak, on account of they don’t affect as much of the playerbase.

Just going to nitpick at this point particularly. There's no need to reinforce your belief here through assumptions and guesses, Riot have openly admitted that they won't nerf problematic champions until they start seeing some plays (IE Zilean/Poppy )

JoushiJan 19, 20151 votes

I definitely believe you here, but do you have a source? I'd like to have that handy.

junglerboy16Jan 19, 20151 votes

Zilean, Poppy, Urgot, and old Sion were exceptions. What the OP meant by not touching strong champions who are under picked is that if they are healthy but a little strong but also very under picked, Riot leaves them alone. Thes few are in a much different position. They are NOT healthy for the game in any way, and they have been forcefully nerfed until they are to UP to be used competitively until their rework can begin.

SummonerSquidJan 19, 20151 votes

Nice article, very insightful. I've read a few of your Diamond Design articles and would like to feature them on my blog. Add me in-game if you want to talk more.

ThryaleJan 19, 20151 votes

Lulu has a pacify, silence, and slow on her transmorph ability.

Saint LatonaJan 20, 20151 votes

You say Amumu is the only champ with a pacify. I say that you are forgetting Lulu, who has a silence, pacify, and movement speed slow when she polymorphs someone.

JoushiJan 20, 20151 votes

This was mostly me being bad with words, but you're right. What I was trying to say was Amumu is the only champion who prevents you from autoattacking while still allowing you to use spells.

KingsgraveJan 20, 20151 votes

Would Varus be balanced if his W was changed to a skillshot silence and his passive was his current W?

JoushiJan 21, 20151 votes

I try not to discuss "numbers" a lot in my discussions (I know your question didn't ask about numbers). I'm not sure adding another full ability to Varus is necessarily a good idea because I think he's already quite well designed (if a little undertuned right now, like I think his passive could have a longer duration when against minions to give him more of a chance to capitalize it, or could have the duration extended by autoattacking champions). However, perhaps you could add a silence to his ult so that when someone gets snared they also get silenced?