So, the Boards wants the weakest player to not matter...

FurriesAreHot·3/28/2018, 1:08:43 PM·34 votes·1,960 views

But lets think about it. The weakest player shouldn't be able to drag the team down. But the strongest player is only strong because the weakest enemy made them that way. I am seeing a discrepancy. People want the weaker player on their team to not effect the outcome, in a 5v5 game mind you, where that 1 player is 1/5th of your team. But they also want to be able to solo carry, in a 5v5. How do they propose they carry if the enemy's weakest player doesn't weigh their team?

Im genuinely confused.

31 Comments

Sahn Uzal3/28/2018, 1:23:02 PM45 votes

The general idea is that one player can lose you the game, but one player can not win the game for their team; it should be both or neither. Not just one

T ºKP Billy3/29/2018, 11:15:17 AM4 votes

But the strongest player is only strong because the weakest enemy made them that way.

Thats false. A player can grow strong in a game not necessarily because his opponent laner is bad.

His opponent laner can be decent/normal for his level, just like the other 8 players, but just the player himself is too good for him and outclasses his opponent.
The player grows strong capitalizing on falts on the entire opponent team, not just his opponent laner (invading,roaming, generaly outplaying many players).

So, yeah, one team having a very strong player does not necessarily mean the opponents having a very weak player too.

Troll for Trump3/28/2018, 7:06:50 PM3 votes

Because you're assuming both need to be true. The strong player gets an impact by influencing other lanes, and the weak lane has no impact because of the lack thereof.

You also don't exclusivey need a weakest player to get a fed player. You can get fed by roaming like Talon or farming like Yi.

There's no contradiction

ChaddyFantome3/28/2018, 6:38:00 PM3 votes

Others have given you the correct answer, but to explore your post a bit more, that statement isn't even strictly true. a solo individual does not strictly have to get ahead by running a single other individual into uselessness. That isn't even generally how Snowballing works if a player actually is attempting to win off of said snowball.

If I am up 10 kills at 20 minutes, chances are i didn't get all 10 from just my opposing laner.

Seilleas3/28/2018, 7:52:56 PM3 votes

You see, this is a 5v5 game, thus the team with worse bad player loses, not the team with better good player wins.... Generally speaking, the one with worse teammate loses not the one with better one wins. If you get what im trying to say. You have a slight lead built by you carrying or something, but one teammate can throw it all and make it 4v5 in one stupid decision and lose the game. As i said its a 5v5 game however often its not a teamgame, its 5 individual players versus another 5 individual players.

There are so many problems in this game. The gameplay should be alot more intuitive. Right now Dragons are very low impact in my opinion, the gold old dragon used to give was alot more fun AND NOT RANDOM! You should be able to make a clear choice between items that you want to build depending on your plan or your enemy...not have item 3087 item 3094 on every adc. Right now you only make choice between armor and magic resist most of the time.

Non-tank characters shouldnt be able to utilite defensive stats as well as tanks.(% wise) Tanks shouldnt do as much damage( You see, if a tank does 20-30% less damage than a fighter but is 50% more tankier by resistances and has more health he will do more damage and is likely that they also have more crowd control)

Runes shouldnt exist at all in my opinion, it just adds another factor that they have to balance(which they never will). The game has no hard counters so draft really doesnt matter all the way till like D2. Tanks do way too much damage for how tanky they are. Adcs have too much safety provided by their support who gets gold for free and doesnt even have to cs or pay attention to waves as much. Wards should cost gold and provide better vision. Mages are not impactful enough in the early to midgame in my opinion. The meta is too forced by how theres always 1 top 1 jungle 1 mid 2 bot, limits the picks drastically. There should be more items in general and especially early game items like doran´s, where you sacrifice some gold for item that builds only into something with low impact or stats that could get you through the early game in case your character or playstyle demands it. There should be more items with active use. The items should be more strictly categorized: -Tank items with most base stats should cost more or have lesser passive or active effects then ones with actives which would have less base stats. -Assassin items should exist to counter different types of defensives, also be gold appropriate for the impact of the item. -There should be more adc items and they should have overall higher cost as ADC is the one thats supposed to carry the late game -Jungle items(not the ones related to smite, but items that you would preferably pick on a jungler) should have vision denial appropriate to cost and have options to either impact early game or scale into lategame or objective control. -AND SUPPORTS! Their items need better effects early game and scale worse into lategame and the ones with greater effects or stats should cost more

Done...You have a way more balanced game I have to say as a League player that DOTA2 is alot better in almost every way except Shop clarity and character movement. (Also i think the map should be a bit larger and there should be custom modes like in DOTA, it would make players who dont play competitively have more of a reason to play)

Salson3/28/2018, 9:23:44 PM2 votes

In the current meta of early game jungle one fed ally often means two fed enemies. What players want is for the game to encourage more solo kills, thus 'solo carry'.

And while yes, League is a 5v5 game, they want to be able to 'pick up the slack' and be 1.5 for a 0.5 teammate.

princeblumpkin3/29/2018, 4:11:44 AM1 votes

{quoted}

But lets think about it. The weakest player shouldn't be able to drag the team down. But the strongest player is only strong because the weakest enemy made them that way.

Not always true. Just shitting on 1 player usually isn't enough to become super far ahead of everyone. I've had tons of games where I'll dominate the entire enemy team for the first 20 minutes, but I have 1 teammate that is so fucktarded useless that we still lose. I even once had a game where I went 18/0 and still lost because our adc went afk at 4 minutes. Some people are literally such anchors on their team that they're as bad, or worse, than an afk. That kind of influence is what people are complaining about.

SilentBomber3/29/2018, 12:47:04 PM1 votes

{quoted}

But lets think about it. The weakest player shouldn't be able to drag the team down. But the strongest player is only strong because the weakest enemy made them that way. I am seeing a discrepancy. People want the weaker player on their team to not effect the outcome, in a 5v5 game mind you, where that 1 player is 1/5th of your team. But they also want to be able to solo carry, in a 5v5. How do they propose they carry if the enemy's weakest player doesn't weigh their team?

Im genuinely confused.

There is a huge difference between being the strongest because you outplayed your enemy and being the strongest because you lane against a bad player.In the vast majority of my games the weakest player/players were those who gave up from 10th minute of the game.

I believe the "boards" can accept a loss because the weakest player at least grouped with his team properly and tried to win.It is so much different that a 3/14/4 support Zyra that splitpushes without vision or just dies 1 vs 4 while calling "trash" her top lane jax who had 24 kills.

You all misunderstand the true meaning of the word "weak".Weak is not someone who had a bad game.Weak is someone who gives up easily and griefs during the whole game.

All these from my experience.Thus,there is a weak player in every game and team.The true question is if that weak player is trying to win or not.

Supreme Senpai693/29/2018, 6:07:32 PM1 votes

I think it's more like. Let's say you have four very good players and one player that goes 0/15/0 in 12 minutes. And the enemy team has one good player, and four players that are bad but don't die and instead just lose all the CS.

You have now lost, despite being better as a team, because your worst player was worse than their worst player.

The better team doesn't win. It's just the one who feeds the hardest loses the game. It's a contest of which feeder is worse, not which team is better, and that is very frustrating

DragonShea3/30/2018, 2:27:34 AM1 votes

Balance homie. what people want is to have the strongest player be able to compensated for a weak player if all players are even. there is too much of a leap in power then it comes to the weak players messing up, and the strong player snowballing. its not just about who can snowball faster, it's not just able who is the furthest behind, it's BOTH and that is a nasty cocktail made to make the game an utter stompfeasta.

And players want to have the means to make comebacks without worry while also capping snowballing in general. However, if someone fucks up too much or someone can gain a snowball, then it should be GG and rightfully so. if falling behind and snowballing can be denied or secured instead of it being all about people being kill happy then league would be more healthy.

Bernie Sąnders3/28/2018, 7:39:12 PM1 votes

It's unfortunate that one can't carry but one could ruin it, but if everyone knew that, i wonder if they would be more inclined to play as a team, rather than try to be the prima donna and get that S+

Snowman Arc3/28/2018, 8:53:16 PM1 votes

Well, there is a huge difference between having 9 players on your team and a weak one vs 9 players and a strong one.

The strong player will sure make a difference, but 5 strong players will probably hold them down enough to not make a huge difference. Now, the weak player will make mistake after mistake, and the average enemies will pounce on that. They will get a good lead, and that lead will get them far more objectives and control. Knowing that you can effectively make the game 5v4 because of the weak player automatically puts you in a huge advantage. A strong player will still count as one though. The weak player will probably be useless, sometimes even it would be better if they were AFK.

I can remember a lot of games where I was doing good but I would have a weak (sometimes inting) jungler. Those games, I really wish my jungler would be AFK. He went 1/19 (resetting his gold given at 9 kills, granting even more money), and made the 4v5 even harder, negating any lead I had gained. If that guy literally AFKed, I would probably have chances to win.

The 5/0 Jax top is strong, but it doesn't mean that his enemy who is 0/4 or something is weak. Maybe he was double ganked through fog of war, maybe he got outplayed or something. Shit happens. An average player being 0/4 will still be useful later. They will still try to find ways to come back, and do something meaningful, even if the enemy has a fed Jax. Sure it's hard but it happens. Happened to me a lot of times.

Now, if that is an average Jax who is again 5/0, but that enemy laner is 0/4 but obviously a bad player (takes bad trades, can't cs, doesn't ward, bad runes / items), then you know the game is over. Jax's team will play around him, they will get fed on that 0/4 guy even more, take his tower, take another one and so on, and there will be literally no counterplay. That's the difference.

Anatera3/29/2018, 12:45:32 AM1 votes

You do realize the strongest player on your team can become strong because of several different lanes right? This game isn't just mid vs mid or top vs top for the whole thing.

There's this thing called roaming and what you do is you leave your lane and go to other lanes to kill the enemy and take objectives. When you do so successfully, you place yourself ahead of your enemy, not just in your original lane. This is a good thing because it helps spread out your success with your teammates as well, since they can get kills and assist gold too.

Mizaya3/29/2018, 1:05:29 AM1 votes

When you say "the strongest player is only strong because the weakest enemy made them that way"... I don't agree with this statement, but more importantly, here you imply that you are talking about "strong" and "weak" in regard to how fed/underfed they are.

I think this argument that you refer to is better made when speaking in terms of skill rather than power. Because it feels to me that the idea is one player of below average skill is a much bigger detriment to the team than one player of above average skill is a benefit.

JRobin313/29/2018, 3:41:58 AM1 votes

During laning phase, you are absolutely right, in each lane there is a winner and a loser (or they break even). But once the game becomes about the team, it may be that the weakest laner wasn't actually the weakest member of his team or the strongest laner wasn't actually the strongest member of his team. So it is actually possible to have scenarios where the strongest player carries or the weakest player throws.

Scenario A: a player is the strongest in the game, by virtue of his strength he defeats all his opponents regardless of their strength or weakness. Maybe he beat his lane opponent, maybe he broke even, but now he goes around killing everyone or dropping turrets or whatever strategy or skill he uses. In this case, it doesn't matter who the weakest member of the opposite team is and it doesn't matter who the weakest member of his own team is. The game revolves around him and his ability to carry.

Scenario B: a player is the weakest in the game and by virtue of his weakness, he throws the game. He loses to everyone. Maybe he beat his lane opponent, maybe not, but now he goes around and can't seem to catch a break. He always in the wrong place, or he feeds, or fails to group, or whatever strategy or skill he uses sub-optimally. It doesn't matter who the strongest member of his team is and it doesn't matter who the strongest member of the enemy team is. The game revolves around him and whether or not he throws.

Maybe one of these scenarios dominates, maybe both are prevalent, or maybe neither occurs with regularity. These scenarios may be affected by META shifts or overall game rank. The point is that these scenarios occur as alternatives to the classic win lane / win game model.

Now, having said all this and made such a long reply, I have to say that there is actually a whole lot more going on and that this is a gross simplification. The take away is this: the best strategy is often going to be to help the strongest members of your team make the lives of the enemies weakest members absolutely miserable (more miserable than the strongest players from the enemy team can makes the weakest members of your own team feel).