Boards›Gameplay

Bloodthirster vs IE - Is there really a choice of first item? (long post)

Dyonas·2/14/2015, 1:27:47 PM·1 votes·2,473 views

It's been a while since the changes to BT and I just have to ask, what was the point of the change? At the time it was mentioned that it was to give more variety in builds and stop BT being a must-buy first item. All it did, in my opinion, is change the first item rush from Bloodthirster to Infinity Edge. The only difference now is that the items are in the opposite positions. If you don't build IE first (some champions excluded like Vayne, Kalista) then you're doing a lot less potential damage. Basically all it did was swap BT first to IE first and nothing more was said.

There is no real variety just as there wasn't before but what if BT lost its shield, maybe 5% lifesteal and gained 5 - 10 AD? You still have the lifesteal but at a slightly lower rate and the increased damage is just enough that it would at least make picking it first a decent option versus IE. Quick calculations show 85 AD and 15% lifesteal giving 12.75HP per attack (13.5HP if 90AD) compared with 80 AD and 20% lifesteal giving 16HP per attack. The 85AD option is a more cautious option but given the usefulness of the shield I think 90 AD would be closer to a trade with the lifesteal reduction.

Why do I care about any of this? It's predictable what most will build first and it's just a rush to get that power spike first. Whoever gets BF first has lane control as long as they don't throw it. Whoever builds IE first has that massive crit damage chance and is ahead. You may lifesteal for 50 every second but if you get hit with a crit for 500 that's 10 seconds you'd need to auto attack to stay alive IF they stop attacking you. As it stands there is zero defense at all for crit damage in terms of items. Yes you can take masteries to reduce the damage a little but beyond that you either run or die and the masteries are a heavy investment for non-tanks. Anything that makes people consider another item first would be a positive step just as the changes to BT were supposed to do but failed to do.

3 Comments

ValyrianBlade2/14/2015, 1:46:59 PM2 votes

I think BT was more hurt by dorans blades giving percent lifesteal instead of hp on hit. So instead of gaining no sustain by building ie first you now gain 3% lifesteal on all of that damage - or more if you go double dorans or lifesteal quints.

Getting a vamp scepter still gives good Lane sustain. Also rushing BT over IE gives good Lane sustain. Assuming neither side is looking for all-ins and you're poking each other, BT will actually come out ahead of IE. Of course, if you rush ie and they rush BT you should be looking to all in if possible.

I think just now, adcs aren't thinking about winning Lane as much. The 2 item power spike (IE plus PD) that suddenly makes them huge in teamfights is what they're looking for. It's not that IE beats BT as a first item necessarily as much as IE+PD beats BT+PD as a two item spike.

I agree with the premise though, they need to buff BT a bit or something. Just give it 5 AD or something I think though.

And as a post-note, I used to occasionally rush IE over BT for that 2 item spike before these changes (Depending on team comps, etc)

Stonington2/14/2015, 3:50:22 PM1 votes

Since the IE crit nerf a lot of pro players are building BT first.

JiruoXD6/9/2015, 2:20:27 AM1 votes

Really in my opinion Blood Thrister is not and should not be a first item even on Kalista. BORK is far superior and still gives you great sustain. Also the active of stealing 10% of your foes Max HP, will by far be more health than the small difference in life steal of BT and BORK. For a one item spike not accounting for champion skills(skills that scale with AD), BORK has more kill pressure.

The situation becomes gray once you get to two or three items, but still even here any two item combination that includes Blood Thrister will be far inferior to the other options. Like BT->PD is weaker than BORK->PD or IE->PD, personally I feel that BORK into IE is likely one of the strongest two item combinations for single target DPS. I would consider IE into PD to be a very close second but the life steal and active of BORK would pull it ahead.

People seem to under estimate the passive of BORK thinking it requires a great deal of health to pull ahead. But this is completely FALSE. Based on my numbers, the enemy's total health only has to be over 819 for the current Health Damage to provide = kill pressure to IE. And the difference only gets better and better for BORK as total hp increases. BORK scales better and is a much better single item spike assuming your ADC Champion doesn't have a solid use of the Bonus AD with in it kit.

My personal thought is that BORK should be the first item on all ADCs that don't have abilities that scale with AD. If they do have AD scaling abilities it should be taken on a case by case and game by game basics on whether IE or BORK should be your first item.

But on what could be done to fix Blood Thrister. Well, it should have a passive that instead of giving a shield or perhaps in addition attacking with it would give temporary stacks that add AD and LS. This would make it similar to how it was before but makes your timing and use have to be more controlled. And to be honest, I am not sure how much AD or LS would have to increased to make it better. Without consider a champions own AD( which IE's crit chance and crit damage will affect) IE only provides around 98 AD. If the champion had 70 base AD, total average damage would be 137 compared to BT's 105. IF you assume a one to one on attacks, the Life steal would take off 21 damage in this example. So it would be 116(IE) to 105. If you account the passive shield it may almost trade even on average if you play it right. But I still feel the BORK, would trade better in this match up.