Counterplay

Loken Stoneheart·5/2/2015, 5:02:50 AM·35 votes·3,376 views

I'm tired of "counterplay" being the new(ish) buzzword used to complain about skills. The counterplay of the skill isn't all that is important. While a skill having counterplay is great and all, we can't just tag counterplay on everything that isn't an ADC (Autoattacks only counterplay is blind, and that is available on two champions-- One of which shall not be spoken of, and the other is the fairly buggy mess that is Quinn). This would pretty obviously make ADCs king.

What does matter is that the ability is fair in context with the champion kit, and other champions. Yeah, point and click spells are easy to use and have "no counterplay" as some whine. First off-- how is this different than an autoattack? Second, they are typically balanced with lower range, longer CD, lower damage, or put on a champion whose kit has that as its primary move or something of the sort-- they paid for it in their power budget.

And with other champions-- unless we're ready for Riot to rework roughly 120 champions +/- the rest of the champions in the game, simultaneously, this isn't fair to the champions that are reworked. They get all the counterplay-- See Sion, for instance. Mostly good just because of the sheer bulk his W brings, his Q, W, and R are all loaded with counterplay (Just walk out of Q, you have a whole second. W you have three seconds to pop it. R, you just sidestep and he runs 500 units away before he can stop). Now, why is it fair for Sion that he has all the counterplay in his kit, and something along the lines of Nidalee or such-and-such exist? Champions that have little-to-no counterplay, but continue to exist because Riot can't possibly get around to reworking all the champions in the game.

Maybe we just focus more on it being "fair." Again, a champion having a good point and click move is more than fair if they pay for it somewhere else in their budget. Not everything needs to be a skillshot or have a 2-3 second delay, and truth be told until autoattacks are skillshots too (counterplay, its only fair), this shouldn't even be a complaint or buzzword.

63 Comments

Matezoide5/2/2015, 6:26:18 AM16 votes

According to Riot, if you have a skillshot in your kit, you have more counter-play than everyone without one.

Thats why Kalista is allowed to exist. Riot legitimately thinks she has more counterplay than Garen.

Teridax685/2/2015, 9:46:06 AM7 votes

There's more to counterplay than just missing an ability. Putting yourself at a risky range to autoattack as a squishy marksman, for example, carries counterplay, because you're leaving yourself open to attacks from champions who can reach you from that range and kill you extremely quickly. Some point-and-click spells, like Tristana 's new Explosive Charge, carry counterplay, because the target can react in some way to lessen the impact of that ability or turn it against you (Trist needs to stay within autoattacking range throughout the whole ability, for example), but others, like Ryze's old Q, don't, which forces those kinds of spells to be less powerful and interesting. Counterplay's a term that's been running around for years in League now, and even though it's often misused, it's an important part of gameplay and the design process, and can often help explain decisions that would otherwise not make much sense (giving Ryze a skillshot, for example).

Very Hard Engage5/2/2015, 4:28:02 PM6 votes

we've adapted to using the word "counterplay" because its the exact word and reasoning rito uses when utterly gutting champions or justifying what they're actively doing.

DorkunedAuras5/2/2015, 6:29:22 AM5 votes

cough Annie point and click instaburst cough

Mandang05/2/2015, 3:54:53 PM5 votes

Counterplay isn't limited to dodging skillshots, and I think the way Riot uses the term is actually pretty close to your use of 'fair'.

I agree that Riot's insistence on turning everything into a skillshot is troubling, especially when each new release is more mobile than the last, but I think you're barking up the wrong tree by dragging autoattacks into this. There are more than enough counterplay opportunities to ADCs, most created through less immediate means, like the fact that the ADC is forced to build glass and remain in the fight to make their contribution. Contrast that to the champs whose (lack of) counterplay gets complained about, and I think you'll see what I mean - about ADCs specifically and 'counterplay' in general.

zane yalgir5/2/2015, 8:23:24 AM4 votes

east coast ping is the ultimate counter play. its like trying to play ssoccer at the olympic level with a vest filled with brocks. your jsut not gonna do good. and riot has done a lovely job of ruuning it since i went from 90 a year ago to 140 now

MELIΟDAS5/2/2015, 7:03:15 PM2 votes

Annie fiddle veigar are counters to mobility creep, they had high win ratio because were antimeta picks.Fuc strategic diversity, mobility creep is supreme

Chaotic Reks5/2/2015, 8:32:43 PM2 votes

Kalista "what's counterplay?"

FirstSergeantBim5/3/2015, 9:40:58 AM1 votes

Riot isn't trying to lower the collective champion pool's levels of power to compensate for dated and broken kits. That motivation you see is purely coincidental and you are blinded by your bias. It is simply a backwards way of looking at some of these changes. Here's the real deal: Riot wants to re-tool their roster so that each champion's purpose is designed for team roles and not match positions. Ghostcrawler even made a post about this: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/TBjVqkmq-are-ad-carry-mains-ever-happy-with-the-meta.

If you view the game as five separate components, (top, jungle, middle, adc, support) then you're missing the point. Teams don't need an "adc", they need reliable, sustained damage. Teams don't need a "jungler", they need a disruptive tank. Being the "jungler" doesn't mean your purpose is to farm the jungle monsters. It means your team has collectively agreed that the jungle monsters on your side of the map are a resource allocated to you. Your real job is to strengthen your lanes so that the enemy team cannot easily destroy your base's defensive structures. You do that by "farming the jungle" and "ganking". If champions are designed for team roles, then their level of "fairness" won't make any sense if you are judging them by their ability to succeed in map positions.

This means Sion is not a "top lane tank", but a "team-fight tank" and Riot tweaked his kit to enable him to be a better team-fight tank. Trust me, there is a difference. Since Sion is team-centric, his intentions must be visible to his allies, so he makes a big fuss out of things. He yells "I WILL CRUSH YOU ALL!!!" so loud that everyone on the map can hear it. Why? So his allies know he's engaging the enemy and they better hop on that bandwagon because their badass meat-shield is about to get some work done. Take that illustration and apply it to the rest of his abilities and I think you'll get the point. Nidalee is an assassin, so she is going to be much more subtle in her approach, but that doesn't mean she lacks clearly defined weaknesses in a team-fight setting. She's been given the tools to pick people off and if you let her do that, then there should be no question whether or not she will wreck you.

This game is about context. Open your mind and you will find Riot is improving quality of gameplay by reworking so many champion kits. That's my two cents. I hope it helps.

Emperor Kyoka5/3/2015, 10:04:32 AM1 votes

It's not a counterplay issue. It's a skill disparity problem. "Broken" champions don't snowball because they don't have significant weaknesses. They do it because the skill difference between players allows some people to recognize/be oblivious to how they should play in these matchups. The real questions is how does Riot plan to "fix" how people are placed in matches. I don't know if it's just me, but there seems to be a far greater frequency in the steamrolls I've been seeing on summoner's rift. You either win big, get decimated, or struggle through fifty minutes of pain. I think there's something wrong with the fact that you actually have a "Good Game" on both sides once in 20 matches or so.

CISTERN5/3/2015, 7:44:29 PM1 votes

Just riot dont recognize the fact that every champion has no counterplay at many specific occasions, also if a champion has no counterplay somewhere is because he/she has crazy weakness elsewhere. Riot pls don't nerf every antimeta champion, this is the reason makes this meta static .Antimeta champions are balanced champs, example all mid range 'easy to hit' cc are 'op', because of mobile champions, mobile champions the most times has low range

Ahurath5/3/2015, 7:59:21 PM1 votes

Old tristana didn't have much counterplay to her, 700 range, self peel, AS steroid, jump and she wasn't hard to play at all haha. Those where the times QQQQQQQQ