So...for all the people asking for Cass to be a "Poison Mage"

AceBlack·Feb 9, 2015·3 votes·1,109 views

Um...what exactly is a poison mage?

Dead serious question. I see so many Cass mains and "Cass mains" screaming at Riot until they're blue in the face about how they ruined Cass's "identity" by not making her this archetype. But when they are asked about what exactly makes a poison mage they just puff out their lips and go "Uhhh...Iunno...Dee oh Tees n stuff".

So it can't just be DoTs that makes a "poison mage". If it is, those two should be more than enough "poison" and "mage". So what exactly do you want?

16 Comments

SaltyToplaneGoatFeb 9, 20156 votes

The current Cassiopaia Rework is the biggest waste of potential that I have ever seen - mostly because the dude working on her simply thought of poison = DoT.

Now, let's all think for a moment, what IS poison? A substance that affects you negatively over time, the worse the higher the dosis and the longer you are exposed to it. It doesn't only have to be damage: slowly decreasing movement speed, slowly decreasing vision, slowly decreasing stats... at first the effect could be low, but th longer cassiopaia manages to keep you poisioned the stronger it gets. (Every poision causes stacks on the enemy to build up temporarely, the more stacks -> the stronger the effect.)

I would move the poision part to her passive, with her Q W and E abilties to be diferent ways to apply different poisions that can also stack on the enemy. (Ofc no point & click moves. There should be enough possibilties for three different skillshot/AOE skills. How about a wandering cloud of poision for example? )

Maybe also bonus effects for combining some poisions?

AceBlackFeb 9, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tw6EKOEG,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-02-09T03:29:29.399+0000)

The current Cassiopaia Rework is the biggest waste of potential that I have ever seen - mostly because the dude working on her simply thought of poison = DoT.

Now, let's all think for a moment, what IS poison? A substance that affects you negatively over time, the worse the higher the dosis and the longer you are exposed to it. It doesn't only have to be damage: slowly decreasing movement speed, slowly decreasing vision, slowly decreasing stats... at first the effect could be low, but th longer cassiopaia manages to keep you poisioned the stronger it gets. (Every poision causes stacks on the enemy to build up temporarely, the more stacks -> the stronger the effect.)

I would move the poision part to her passive, with her Q W and E abilties to be diferent ways to apply different poisions that can also stack on the enemy. (Ofc no point & click moves. There should be enough possibilties for three different skillshot/AOE skills. How about a wandering cloud of poision for example? )

Maybe also bonus effects for combining some poisions?

So a DoT that gets worse the longer you're exposed to it, like any DoT Singed Swain . That also cripples the victim caught by it like Swain Q.

You want a Swain that does his slow over time as opposed to instantly, with stat-stealing mixed in. Okay, but how does that make her unique?

EndGamer11Feb 9, 20152 votes

What he means is less damage, more utility. Swain just does constant damage; a real poison mage would go something like:

Passive: Toxic Venom As Cassiopeia hits enemies with spells, they are debuffed as follows, once every second: 1-10 stacks: 2.5% slow per stack 11-20 stacks: 2.5% slow per stack, -1.5 AR/MR per stack after 10 stacks 21-30 stacks: (Above), Enemy vision reduced by 15 per stack after 20 stacks 31-50 stacks: (Above), Enemy loses .2% max HP as magic damage per second per stack after 30 stacks

Therefore, if you are Dr. Mundo being healed/shielded by all 4 other teammates against Cass, you would be at: 10 sec in: 25% slow 20 sec in: 50% slow, -15 AR/MR 30 sec in: 75% slow, -30 AR/MR, -150 vision range 40 sec in: 100% slow, -45 AR/MR, -300 vision range, losing 2% max HP per second of being poisoned (liandri's) 50 sec in: 125% slow (functionally useless, but whateves), -60 AR/MR, -450 vision range (about half), losing 4% max HP per second, why are you still alive at this point.

If an enemy becomes un-poisioned, Cass has a grace period of 3 seconds to re-apply before stacks disappear.

So, an ideal poision mage is not "dee oh tee", it is debuffs applied over time, slowly becoming deadly to the hardiest warriors. Of course, Cass's damage would suffer rom having this passive, as she is no longer a sustained damage dealer but a long, kitey, drawn-out battle type of champ. Possibly rework her E into a long, this skillshot, a la Nid spear, to harass from far away and take advantage of her grace period.

AceBlackFeb 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

What he means is less damage, more utility. Swain just does constant damage; a real poison mage would go something like:

Passive: Toxic Venom As hits enemies with spells, they are debuffed as follows, once every second: 1-10 stacks: 2.5% slow per stack 11-20 stacks: 2.5% slow per stack, -1.5 AR/MR per stack after 10 stacks 21-30 stacks: (Above), Enemy vision reduced by 15 per stack after 20 stacks 31-50 stacks: (Above), Enemy loses .2% max HP as magic damage per second per stack after 30 stacks

Therefore, if you are Dr. Mundo being healed/shielded by all 4 other teammates against Cass, you would be at: 10 sec in: 25% slow 20 sec in: 50% slow, -15 AR/MR 30 sec in: 75% slow, -30 AR/MR, -150 vision range 40 sec in: 100% slow, -45 AR/MR, -300 vision range, losing 2% max HP per second of being poisoned (liandri's) 50 sec in: 125% slow (functionally useless, but whateves), -60 AR/MR, -450 vision range (about half), losing 4% max HP per second, why are you still alive at this point.

If an enemy becomes un-poisioned, Cass has a grace period of 3 seconds to re-apply before stacks disappear.

So, an ideal poision mage is not "dee oh tee", it is debuffs applied over time, slowly becoming deadly to the hardiest warriors. Of course, Cass's damage would suffer rom having this passive, as she is no longer a sustained damage dealer but a long, kitey, drawn-out battle type of champ. Possibly rework her E into a long, this skillshot, a la Nid spear, to harass from far away and take advantage of her grace period.

While the numbers need...serious work, that's actually something. That's an identity.

But then what stops her from being shoved bot lane as a support?

JambatFeb 9, 20153 votes

I'm not a Cass main, but man her rework is rubbish. Land a poison pool then mash Twin Fang like it's going out of style. I can't say what the main players would want with their kits, but I find her to be incredibly boring to play right now.

Edit: And she's zero fun to play against as well.

AceBlackFeb 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'm not a Cass main, but man her rework is rubbish. Land a poison pool then mash Twin Fang like it's going out of style. I can't say what the main players would want with their kits, but I find her to be incredibly boring to play right now.

Edit: And she's zero fun to play against as well.

True enough.

Kowe The EwokFeb 9, 20152 votes

Putting AoE DoT pressure on a certain area, forcing the enemy to avoid it, while still offering him a choice: Do I accept the severe damage since it is not a nuke and I can lifesteal backup? Do I accept it it as a tradeoff for closing the gap to my enemy? Or do I avoid the damage and allow my opponent to dictate my walking path?

With a 0.9, but longer delay scaling on her Q and noticeable DoT on her W V1.0 Cassiopeia managed to do exactly this. She created "danger-zones" which enemies would try to avoid, "leading" small skirmishes. Meanwhile at bigger teamfights her power would weaken due to the lack of burst she had. Even with a DoT applied enemies would storm through and burst her.

The poison identity she had was spitting down these these delayed, but huge damage numbers - putting strong pressure on her opponents to go for the all-in or all-out.

AceBlackFeb 9, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kowe The Ewok,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tw6EKOEG,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-02-09T03:29:39.840+0000)

Putting AoE DoT pressure on a certain area, forcing the enemy to avoid it, while still offering him a choice: Do I accept the severe damage since it is not a nuke and I can lifesteal backup? Do I accept it it as a tradeoff for closing the gap to my enemy? Or do I avoid the damage and allow my opponent to dictate my walking path?

With a 0.9, but longer delay scaling on her Q and noticeable DoT on her W V1.0 Cassiopeia managed to do exactly this. She created "danger-zones" which enemies would try to avoid, "leading" small skirmishes. Meanwhile at bigger teamfights her power would weaken due to the lack of burst she had. Even with a DoT applied enemies would storm through and burst her.

The poison identity she had was spitting down these these delayed, but huge damage numbers - putting strong pressure on her opponents to go for the all-in or all-out.

That's Malzahar . Spitting out delayed high-damage with burst to back it up.

Kowe The EwokFeb 9, 20151 votes

Nope

His E is point and click. His Q has a too long cooldown to be a consistent zoning tool. His W is strong if you stay in it, but offers very little punishment for people who simply run through.

AceBlackFeb 9, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kowe The Ewok,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tw6EKOEG,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-02-09T03:48:12.124+0000)

Nope

His E is point and click. His Q has a too long cooldown to be a consistent zoning tool. His W is strong if you stay in it, but offers very little punishment for people who simply run through.

You put out that Cass's identity as a "poison mage" was

A. Putting AoE DoT pressure on a certain area B. "Spitting out huge, but delayed damage numbers". Malzahar 's Q and E are both delayed and deal high damage

C. Putting strong pressure for the opponents to go in or all out, which really comes down on how you play the champion for the most part.

Kowe The EwokFeb 9, 20153 votes

You don't know the difference between DoT and DPS. Malzahar's only Dot is E.

AceBlackFeb 9, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kowe The Ewok,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tw6EKOEG,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-09T03:56:10.466+0000)

You don't know the difference between DoT and DPS. Malzahar's only Dot is E.

DoT stands for "damage over time" does it not? Malz's R, W, and E all deal their damage over a duration, as opposed to instantly, like Ziggs or Lux or most other mage champions.

Or am I mistaken?

Kowe The EwokFeb 9, 20153 votes

Via video game definition DoT refers to a debuff which, once applied, deals continious damage until it ends or removed.

Whereas DPS simply refers to have a constant (regular) source of damage.

By your definition ADCs would be DoT'ters as well.

AriafluxFeb 9, 20152 votes

Identity of a champion is not the solely the result of gameplay mechanics. Let's use Rengar as an example. What's his identity? Hunter. What about him shows that he is a hunter? Jump from bush, throwing bolas, surprise attack. However, gameplay wise, it's a gapcloser, slow and stealth. You could essentially replace his kit with other skills that do the same, gameplay wise, but ruin his identity. How about we make the effects of his skills look like Ezreal's E, Janna's W and Shaco's Q, does he still retain his identity as a hunter then? Another way to think about it can be say, we change his Q to a next skill modifier and move all his damage to his E. Instead of using E to slow and catch the prey like a stereotypical hunter, he will be some sort of ranged character that kills with his bola. That is something that goes against the identity of the character.

My point is, just because gameplay wise, the DoT from a poison and the Dot from other effects practically do the same thing, it does mean that identity wise, they are the same thing. Identity of a champion is hugely influenced by the character design (art and sound etc.).

AceBlackFeb 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Identity of a champion is not the solely the result of gameplay mechanics. Let's use Rengar as an example. What's his identity? Hunter. What about him shows that he is a hunter? Jump from bush, throwing bolas, surprise attack. However, gameplay wise, it's a gapcloser, slow and stealth. You could essentially replace his kit with other skills that do the same, gameplay wise, but ruin his identity. How about we make the effects of his skills look like Ezreal's E, Janna's W and Shaco's Q, does he still retain his identity as a hunter then? Another way to think about it can be say, we change his Q to a next skill modifier and move all his damage to his E. Instead of using E to slow and catch the prey like a stereotypical hunter, he will be some sort of ranged character that kills with his bola. That is something that goes against the identity of the character.

My point is, just because gameplay wise, the DoT from a poison and the Dot from other effects practically do the same thing, it does mean that identity wise, they are the same thing. Identity of a champion is hugely influenced by the character design (art and sound etc.).

While that's true, it's not something that needs a rework, if anything just make a skin.

OnegarionFeb 9, 20151 votes

My interpretation of what people want from her in being a poison mage is that here poison is the main component. Right now the poison is a secondary component in which you can Spam E or get stacks. Its not the main thing to do. Her main damage comes with the poison as a base to actually be cass.

To me personally a poison mage is the same as a fire mage. We don't see annie having a random Water attack or her main ability being a non fire ability. Everything about Annie and brand for that matter screams fire mage. While Cass has some poison abilites sure but they aren't the thing you think of when you think of Cass. You think of stacking passive and spamming E. Again this doesn't mean that her poison doesn't deal damage, but it doesn't scream poison mage like some of the other champions.

Gameplay speaking I think a poison mage isn't a late game monster. At best I think she should be early game lane bully scaling ok into the late with her main focus being teamfights. Almost like the opposite of Teemo. Where teemo excels in dueling (when talking about these two only) and solo play; Cass should be the teamfight Poison mage. WHere she should focus on AOE poisons to win. I think not only the angle they have gone with her is bad, but also the way they've chosen to make her play doesn't fit the archetype of a poison mage.

Thats my two cents at least.