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Petition to keep Veigar a burst Mage and not a poke Mage

Alaric11·3/4/2015, 9:11:16 AM·117 votes·4,391 views

Not every champion needs skill shots. This isn't bloodline champions. Dota and Dota 2 have almost no skill shots and it has always been a far better balanced game than league. The much hated changes turns Vieg in to a very bland poke Mage. He is a crappier version of lux at this point. Change his q back. His ult is single target and his w had never been nor ever should be wide enough to reliably hit multiple targets. He is a single target burst Mage. He is THE single target burst Mage ffs.

Most players will tell you that if old Viegar killed you it was deserved. No one was complaining about him. If you want to change his e fine. I'm all for it. But that means actually changing it, not this cop out we have now which is the same skill except too tardy to actually accomplish anything. But leave the rest of his kit alone. The absolutely retarded "buff" to his q cost him a nerf the entire rest of his skill set. This was NOT worth it. Do the right thing and change it back.

67 Comments

dandyangel3/4/2015, 11:28:30 AM24 votes

I support your petition #bringbackviegar

DrCyanide3/4/2015, 6:09:12 PM13 votes

I just came to that same realization. Veigar's new playstyle is poke with Q, poke with Q, poke with Q, then fire your ult. If possible, poke with W before then.

I've got enough poke mages in my champion pool, I picked up Veigar to be a burst mage.

Spystrike3/4/2015, 9:20:32 AM13 votes

I agree with the conflicting theme of "single target burst mage" and the aptly stated "wide enough to reliably hit multiple targets" W. Hadn't thought about it that way...

DanofDemacia3/4/2015, 3:00:57 PM8 votes

Lux is a crappier version of lux.

Ser Safir3/4/2015, 10:58:42 PM6 votes

#bringbackveigar

Not Tahm Kench3/4/2015, 4:56:25 PM5 votes

I don't know why people think his q is a nerf. You gain AP much faster and you can now harass and increase his AP. This makes Veigar more threatening in lane, were before he had to pick between farming or harass. I think the problem people have is that they can't land a skill shot to save their lives.

ProjectRay123/4/2015, 11:55:49 PM5 votes

signed and +1

junglerboy163/4/2015, 6:05:34 PM4 votes

DotA 2 and League both derived from the same original concept, but they are now incomparable in terms of mechanics and you cannot take the balance of one game and try to say "See? League should be more like this!" because out of context, having a champion with DotA style mechanics in league would leave them either almost useless or ridiculously OP. Conversely, League champion mechanics are not in any way comparable and would be equally out of place in DotA.

Veigar as a champion came from when these two games had yet to really differentiate themselves, back when both games had copious RNG, massive hard CCs, Major Wombo-comboes, and huge burst. Both games were focused on strategy rather than reaction time and the ability to point in the right direction with a skill. Veigar as a champion would be much more at home in DotA than he is in League, to be honest, because he would fit in as an extreme hard carry with hard CCs and major damage. The direction Riot wants to take league is fulfilling their own unique niche in the MOBA world as the game of personal skill and big plays, where DotA has claimed the niche of old school style with over the top powerhouses.

Veigar would be homogenized to match the new direction of League eventually, since he no longer fit what League has become. I agree that he needs to keep his over the top burst to a certain extent, but at this point, his kit is considered outdated and toxic in the League of today, no matter whether he would fit right in with another MOBA or not.

TL;DR: DotA 2 is balanced around the fact that there are very few major skill shots, and is not comparable to League. League is currently in a transitory state where they have yet to fully cull out all "antiquated" mechanics such as RNG or several second long hard CC, and as such its balance is understandably bad because half the champions are balanced around a different rubric than the other, newer half.

Anthony06033/5/2015, 1:39:28 AM3 votes

An assassin doesn't just have to do with the damage the champion is able to put out. An assassin is a highly mobile squishy damage dealer. Notice even if you build Darius full damage, he isn't an assassin. Give Darius a dash though, and he could easily become an assassin. Champions like Talon, Zed, LeBlanc, Twitch, Akali, Shaco, Rek'Sai, and even Lucian are all assassins because they share two key traits. Mobility and damage. While you can definitely have a burst mage that is an assassin as well, there are, as stated above really a very small list of purely burst ap champs. They don't have the mobility to get in and out of fights, they might be champs that have cc, but ultimately they rely on putting out enough damage to either force the enemy away or kill them. This consists of Syndra, Lux, Cass, Brand, Veigar. There may be a few more but that's what I saw for AP champs with no mobility that fall more into the field of damage then utility. That's a pretty small list. Out of those though, if you really wanted to just blow one person up no questions asked. You would go with Veigar.

Trylobyte3/4/2015, 7:38:24 PM3 votes

Love the new Veigar Q. Lets me stack more AP faster while using less mana and poking at the same time. What really messed him up was the change to his E - His burst used to be crazy but without the E stun he has a hard time actually landing it because of his slow W, and these days no player is going to get caught in that stun with the warning they have.

Fix the stun and I think Veigar will be even better than before.

trexmixG3/5/2015, 1:38:32 AM3 votes

did you just say "dota and dota2 are more balanced then LoL"

Kögâ3/5/2015, 7:30:32 AM3 votes

/signed

Iron Rubric3/5/2015, 11:38:04 AM3 votes

Common myth is his new Q can let him farm better.

if your enemy is letting you set up two minions all game, yes.

realistically, with the cool down increase you cast q less in the laning phase, and your can get cock blocked by minion pathing.

and by the time you can kill 2 minions out right you need A high amount of ap already.

Mohrb3/5/2015, 3:09:45 AM2 votes

That's the biggest thing that sickens me about current LoL balance... the idea that meaningful support "doesn't have counterplay and isn't fun to play against." ... but that IS counterplay against ADCs. So, counter supports with long range pokes and nukey assassins. Counter those with tanks. Counter tanks with ADCs. Everyone should have a meaningful role to play in team fights. Other than vision.

Athenes Lulu3/10/2015, 10:50:41 PM2 votes

One of our only hopes that can stop the #LCSBigPlays, can't die like this.

Signed.

Mohrb3/5/2015, 3:00:12 AM2 votes

1: i definitely agree, bring back old Veigar AND Zilean. Zilean could use a rework, perhaps... not a total nerf to everything about him. As for Veigar, the only thing we NEED is to get rid of the delay on the stun.... that's veigar's only escape/engage mechanism. The delay was entirely unnecessary. Mixed feelings about new Q. I prefer single target click... it provides a defense against people like Kat and Fizz (you know... the real imbalance in league) from just running up, flashing/jumping throuh your Q and melting your face with nothing you can do about it. I often range people out by hitting the caster minion, which i can't if I'm creep blocked.... there's a potential advantage, but I don't like the risk. Most importantly, give me my stun back!

2: I do like dota 2, and it's what I've been bringing my friends to until this balance nightmare gets fixed... and yes, skill shots are more rare, but for people's info, here are a list of skillshots out there: -Keeper of the Light's Q. Think Janna with a ridiculously wide tornado. He also still has Soraka's mana infusion (chakra magic)... and it's why he's amazing. -pudge's hook.... he's what blitzcrank was based on. -kunka's ult.... kinda similar to nami's wave, but it's a boat! -Mirana's spear and Enchantress's ult are each similar to ash's ult and nidalee's spear... kinda. -beastmaster's axes... think Diana's arch thingy... but in two archs at once. -clockwerk and invoker each have GLOBAL skill shots... invoker actually has... like... 5 skill shots, I think. Not sure. I mostly alacrity/coldsnap support. -magnataur's shockwave, shadow fiend's blasts, slither's venom spray -earthshaker's wall, undying's str sap, and geomancer's net... all skill shots. -Lina has skill shots similar to brand -most things phoenix has are skill shots. -lashaq... tortured spirit... thingy... that stun is a delayed ground target stun. That counts. Vengeful spirit's armor stripper is a skill shot. -tusk's snowball and earth's spirit's rock thingy could all be skill shots.... -weaver's wave of bugs and spector's dagger (which is what nocturn's shadowy path thing is based on) -nyx assassin, lion, and sandking all have lines of spikey stunny skill shots. -Puke, the pixie cheater dragon.... fuggin' fizz of dota, but with a teleporty skill shot -techies is a skill shot. :)

... dota has plenty of skill shots... and yes, we have meaningful stuns... which makes supports worth more than ward slaves. We're the counterplay to hard carries. A good support is just as vital to winning team fights as the ADC in that they're the anti-adc. Stuns and silences and sheepsticks ARE counterplay.

OyddAWqJ5r3/4/2015, 5:55:45 PM1 votes

Leblanc Syndra Nidalee

HE is the single target burst mage? I think not.