About the zoe nerfs coming in 8.16

god daimmq·8/6/2018, 11:27:47 PM·15 votes·15,649 views

Hello. I started this discussion because i want to know your opinion abot the nerfs Zoe will receive in 8.16: Passive- AP ratio lowered from 32.5% to 20%. Base damage on passive lowered from 12-135 to 10-124 W - AP ratio lowered from 55% to 40%.

I want to know your opinion about those.Obviously they will make her weaker but do you think those are big nerfs? I think they are kinda big because we get electrocute and aery nerfs next patch too. So what do you think?She will remain good or become a lot weaker?

I know these nerfs can be changed until the release of the patch but i really want to know someone's else opinions. Peace.

54 Comments

Packun Flower8/7/2018, 12:46:47 AM23 votes

I wish Yasuo would get the Zoe treatment, i remember when he was the hot topic.

Yes, I play Zoe and yes she is strong but shes also very risky to play. She's what I like to call an investment champion whereas your team has to invest resources into making her strong in lane or she's not going to snowball.

The truth of the matter is people complain about Zoe because they don't like being one shot by her combo. But there are other champions who do the exact same thing she does but with fewer risk.

Let's compare, shall we?

Zoe damage gimmick comes from her Sleepy bubble trouble if you get hit by it your going to take extra damage from her follow up paddle star. If you get hit by it. Sleepy bubble trouble can be blocked by minions, monsters, pets, clones, even things like shaco's boxes. If you do get hit by the bubble you do have a little time to prepare by using your minions or even jungle monsters to block the incoming paddle star.

Talon Has no gimmick to his damage. he hits level two and all-ins you and your dead. You cannot stop this unless you are under turret and even then his tower diving is fairly safe because of his wall leaping ability. If you do somehow survive and return to base to heal he punishes you by roaming to another lane. You cannot out push him in lane, you cannot out farm him in the lane, there is no risk to his damage, he does it, his rotation costs little to no mana and he will always out trade you no matter the item or level advantage.

Zed Another good example. W-Q combo means your going to be out poked hard. Even on Champions like Xereth or Ziggs, Zed is going to be able to trade with you very easily, and once he does widdle you down to nothing he can gap close and win the lane very easily. the same defensive items that work against zed can also work against Zoe. item 3157 a very popular item vs zed, also good vs Zoe, you hourglass a zed ult yes, you can also hourglass a Zoe bubble, the difference here is that Zoe cannot follow up on you once the hourglass is over, Zed can, he just needs to swap with his shadow an he's right there to finish the job, Zoe on the other hand only has 1 second to recast her paddle star and hourglass effect lasts 2.5, if she doesn't it vanishes and goes on cooldown. Not to mention Zoe ult forces her back to her location where Zed has full control where he wants to be when you come out of hourglass.

Yasuo once he gets item 3046 your laning phase is done, Yasuo is huge right now in the meta especially with the crit item revert. he got to keep his compensation buff and he's dishing out massive damage with amazing mobility and even more defensive options open to him. when it comes Yasuo vs Zoe Yasuo is going to obliterate Zoe everytime. He need only block the bubble with Windwall and then dash in on her. he gets a massive, MASSIVE power spike with a single crit item, can wave clear very well with Q, gets free defensive stats from passive and windwall and has the mobility that is second only two Talon I'd say when it comes to mid champions. I honestly feel right now Yasuo has the more annoying kit, Zoe can be punished in lane, you can get some free damage off on her when she tried to pick up a spell shard, a good reaction time means you can hit her while she's in her ult The weaknesses are there. None of these things can be done to Yasuo He does everything and scales into a champion so powerful in the late game I'd honestly say he is THE strongest late game champion in the game just because of how much free stats he gets from his kit.

That's just some example, I'm not going to get into other champions like Fizz Quinn or MonkeyKing

The other thing I want to address thats pissing people off is yes, Zoe's W spell theif. Even I think this move is stupid but not for the same reasons everyone else does. The idea behind it is cool but I think CertainlyToxic just went too far with his ambition this time around.

Here is my take on Spell thief and why it shouldn't have ever been created.

  • Summoner spells are powerful. VERY powerful, Especially summoner 14 and summoner 4 right now. In the laning phase summoner spells can make or break it, A lvl 3 ignite can force an opponent out of lane and allow you to push the wave under their turret and back, ignite is so strong right now its not even being used to secure kills its literally being used to force the opponent back to base when you go back as well. Both you and your lane opponent have half HP and you want to back while punishing them? pop ignite on them, while they run back to turret burning you can hyper push the wave to their turret and back, they are either going to have to back as well, or stay and risk being killed by the jungler or you, either way, you win. So imagine Zoe getting 2 or even 3 ignites from her W? its very strong, on top of that it does grant even more damage with the 3 bubbles she gets as well.

  • The RNG to is so unhealthy for anyone, it either screws you or it screws Zoe. Zoe puts a point into W at lvl 2 and gets a redemption or proto belt or that uhh, other ice shooting item? Well, your fucked. Becuase not only does the skill itself offer damage but so does the activate she just got. On the other hand you could put a point into W and never ever get a bubble minion to appears until like 7 minutes in, in which case laning phase is over, leaving Zoe without her W damage to fight. There is no in-between for this RNG, its either really good or really bad. You Either win lane with It or lose lane with it.

  • A healthy skill either rewards you, or punishes a player. Never both. this is just my personal opinion and Zoe's not the only one guilty for this but I find if a skill does both reward and punish at the same time, then there is something wrong. Engaging on enemies with Zoe's W will always be in your favour. Flash into your opponent and force them to flash away, You get another Flash and some easy damage, they lose their flash, you get rewarded, they get punished, is the same if shes running away, she can flash away and you can flash to follow her but you'll take damage while she gets a speed boost, you get punished, she gets rewarded. That to me creates a balance slope so steep that the skill itself is worth the entire net of a champion. I have tried the W build on Zoe where you max W and go hextech flash and just rely on the W for your damage. Its fucking disgusting, and I say that AS a Zoe main. The skill just does too much, it rewards you and punishes your opponent when it should really just do one or the other, not both. Now, as I said Zoe is not the only champion guilty of doing this but i think in her case she is one that takes it to the extreme.

With that said, I think if the core problems Zoe has were to be fixed, it would have to be the removal of her W for a new skill.

I had this idea for a W rework.

W - Sparklefly Fun! Range: 550 Cooldown: 0.25
Passive - Colorful Sparkle flies will periodically spawn around the map when Zoe is in the game, Zoe can collect these Sparkle flies to gain a stack of Sparkle Fly Fun. Occasionally, A Sparkle Fly will fly to her automatically every 50/40/30 (6/11/16) seconds granting her a stack (Max 1 stack per skill lvl for a max of 5)

Active: Zoe consumes a stack of Sparkle Fly Fun, granting Zoe 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 / 70% bonus movement speed as well as summoning three Sparkle Flies that orbit her for 2 / 2.25 / 2.5 / 2.75 / 3 seconds. The Sparkle Flies autonomously hurl themselves at the nearest enemy, prioritizing her attack target, dealing 75 / 105 / 135 / 165 / 195 (+40% of ability power) magic damage per 3 Sparkle Flies.

This move is smilier to spell theif but less powerful, there is no RNG and it doesn't reward Zoe and Punish the enemy at the same time. This is just the idea off the top of my head though.

In conclusion yes Zoe is strong but there are other worse offenders out there, however the community is right to say that Zoe's W is an issue and needs to be changed.

The Goodest Boy8/6/2018, 11:44:13 PM22 votes

I think pulling damage from the less counterplay-oriented parts of her kit is a good call. (i.e the free lichbane passive and the auto-target W) I think they could've made the passive nerfs less harsh and pulled more damage from her W. Like, way more damage. Preferably all of it.

The Ecdysiast8/7/2018, 10:14:29 AM8 votes

She's getting dumpstered because people would rather whine and complain that there's a random chance her W will be a viable ability than learn to play against her or even base their opinions on the actual fact that she's not over-performing.

Hethalean8/6/2018, 11:31:29 PM7 votes

The electrocute changes aren't really a nerf. The damage is not even halved, but the cooldown is halved early. Late game the cooldown is 33% less cooldown, but a BIT More than 25% stronger (3/4 and 4/3 respectively). So in terms of DPM, it's more. In terms of dmg per instance, I guess it is less damage.

Honestly, what I hear about Zoe feels bad because her W damage is targeted, so you cannot do anything about it. So if she has a couple of charges on the ground, expect tons of damage that you can't do much about soon... especially since her W means that if you use summoner's against her in lane... well that's going to be used against you + W unavoiable damage. It's pretty feels bad. I think that they will end up just retooling it.

Rathar Dashing8/7/2018, 12:06:03 AM7 votes

Seems way too harsh to me. Especially combined with all the nerfs to runes she takes, this is going to really hurt.

MeIancholy8/7/2018, 1:29:05 AM6 votes

About the Zoe nerfs

  1. I believe Riot should wait and see how Zoe is doing before nerfing her a third patch in a row.

  2. Regarding these particular nerfs, I believe they are significant and target the wrong thing. Her passive and w damage exist so that in order to do reliable damage in lane, Zoe must put herself in range to be damaged herself. Absolutely reasonably counterplay. Unfortunately, so many considerable nerfs to these abilities make it so that putting yourself in that range is almost never worthwhile. I would suggest a nerf to her mid and late game burst through q ratio nerfs, if a nerf must be had, although I would also refer you to point 1.

Edit: Maybe reducing damage from multiple w procs in a row would be a reasonable way of taking away some of her reliable damage without gutting her lane phase.

  1. These nerfs are particularly damaging coupled with the nerfs to Aery and Electrocute, and will make laning with 2 abilities that are blocked by minions very difficult.

Thank you for your time (and upvotes).

Dope Solo8/6/2018, 11:59:52 PM6 votes

After seeing the recent video, where she missed everything and still killed a guy - yeah, something has to be done. I just hope they figure out what, and sooner than later.

ModCaliCoastReplay8/7/2018, 2:16:37 AM6 votes

They're doing it wrong. Here's how to fix Zoe :

  • Remove the double-damage multiplier on her sleep. Give it a 1.2-1.5x multiplier, just something non-oppressive, lower is better. This is the single thing that makes her so oppressive to play against, and if getting slept doesn't mean an automatic trip back to the fountain one way or another she won't feel so bad to play against.

  • In exchange, give her back some power elsewhere. It can be a better AOE radius on Paddle Star for waveclear, better More Sparkles damage to encourage spicy R plays, better damage on her autos, better mana efficiency - ask the players what they would want.

Whatever it is, it just has to not be a sleep spell that lets her basically one-shot or force a recall on whoever it hits. It's like Ahri - they've gone WAY too far in putting power onto her charm, just like Zoe 's sleep. Ahri felt so much better and more interactive to me back in the old days when her Q scalings were better and her W was actually useful to keep junglers and divers off of you, but they keep forcing all the power into these one-shot CC combos. That actually limits interactivity and makes the game feel much worse to play.


The take home lesson for Riot needs to be that one shot combos are not fun nor interactive, no matter what champion they appear on.

zaqat8/7/2018, 9:45:57 AM4 votes

Her W shouldn't do damage in the first place, giving her utility, free spells and active features is enough.

Yordle Xayah8/7/2018, 4:12:01 AM3 votes

IMO, the main problem with Zoe I feel is that her power budget is way too obtuse for the game.

  • She has great poke, wave clear and burst damage on her Q alone. You don't need to put people to sleep to do consistent damage to them.
  • Her W I believe is just flat out broken and should not be in the game. Summoner spells and item actives are often deliberate choices you make in a game, often changing your play style entirely. Say you're playing Ahri and you're up against Kata (or whatever assassin). Do you go out guns blazing and try to match the kill pressure with Ignite? Do you take Exhaust for possible duels? Do you take Barrier and try to go even in lane? Zoe doesn't care. There's no bad situation with W. Having any random spell at any point makes Summoner Spells on her somewhat redundant.
  • Trouble Bubble makes Fizz' ult look weak. Imagine if Fizz got extended range of his ult if he threw it through walls. There's other really strong CC skill shots in the game, Morgana's binding being at the top of my head. Land it, and it's rewarding. Miss, and that's all you get. With Zoe, if you miss Trouble Bubble you get an AoE long lasting zone of the same effect as if you landed it. You can't screw Trouble Bubble. You either land it and sleep someone, or just end up with a really powerful zoning tool for free.

Her ult I actually think is fine. But I don't understand how you budget so much power to each of her other individual skills.

BeNiceToOthers8/7/2018, 5:27:05 AM3 votes

I think the biggest problem people have with zoe is how she can just come out of nowhere and oneshot you. Like if you're in lane and she throws a long bubble, and then chunks you for 80% of your hp. Or even worse, she lands a q with no set up and still chunks you for half... Her whole concept as a champion, to have a single spell do the majority of your damage, is just unhealthy in general. Remember when nidalee mid was a thing? And why that was nerfed? Who tf thought it would be a good idea to create a whole champion revolved around a single spell.

GodlyBane8/7/2018, 12:59:57 AM3 votes

those r pretty big tbh

Zeromatsu8/7/2018, 7:29:35 AM2 votes

I don't get why Riot always balances in such a shit manner. They don't nerf champions when they "need" it, wait a long time and then when something else (runes this time) gets a huge nerf, they decide to nerf the champion. Not like the runes have a significant impact on the champion already. How about wait and see what happens to the champion before going any further?

This isn't the first time and probably won't be the last. And it goes in the opposite direction as well. Buff items and at the same time buff champions that slightly underperform.

Malak8/7/2018, 5:32:06 AM2 votes

Zoe is fine, just needs to be weaker. S tier champs should never be 1 shot assassins or RNG based (zoe is both)

If Zoe's power level is nerfed to B tier level by nerfing her damage enough I think no one will complain about her free summoner spells

KazaJhodo8/7/2018, 6:04:31 AM2 votes

I don't understand why a champion that has been out for SO LONG, is getting such massive nerfs. Players have been complaining about zoe since launch, probly since pbe.

I thought we weren't moving with big numbers? Hasn't that been an issue in the past? Now we're just... changing it up? Seriously, did the entire balance team quit? What happened? Balance has been an absolute shitfest lately. Literally just flipping switches on and off with reworks and reverts. Did everyone that actually knew what they were doing bail?

Were they pulled onto another project now that league is franchised? Are we thinking that league can't die now because its locked in?

Whatever happened to the idea of building counterplay and risk into kits?

We should not have champions like yasuo and talon, who can just unlimited jump walls or jump minons. There should be limits on their skills, weaknesses for using them. You know, LIKE COOLDOWNS. Charges, something... what the fuck.

Its like we're TRYING to make annoying kits that are overloaded lately. Wouldn't it be cool if we had a champ that could kill from range, kill you close, has invisibility,a movement speed buff, and could stun... yeah... and resets on kill or assist! YEAH. :(

OHminus8/7/2018, 10:12:28 AM2 votes

How to balance Zoe

Delete

Bisaknosp8/7/2018, 10:12:30 AM2 votes

she deserves to be in the gutter until they rework her w

CaptainAntiHeroz8/7/2018, 1:57:03 PM2 votes

They'll keep nerfing her until she can't even wave clear. Honestly things like Quinn Get an armor Nerf While Zoe's whole presence changed from threat all game that you have to play smart around to "as long as you're not stupid she'll probably never kill you"

She can't deal with hard engage and now she doesn't have decent wave clear without ludens unless you put extreme range behind your q

Before she could be a threat level 1 white that might've been much changing it from nearly able to one shot to less than a quarter is an extreme change that's unfair comparatively

I think it's damage should be set back but qs level 1-4 do 40% less damage to champions. And stop changing w it's strong but so are other abilities like anything fizz does..... You've taken enough off of her with the passive nerfs.

BrokenRayquaza8/7/2018, 2:13:43 PM2 votes

This should make her a little more fair. Make Zoe's actually have to hit there spells to kill omegalul xd

Nevrankroaton8/7/2018, 5:35:55 AM1 votes

Honestly, if they really wanted to calm down zoe craziness, they would put a mana cost on her W and maybe make it being increased for every sucessive use like a Kassadin ultimate.

LibroMastro8/7/2018, 10:27:58 AM1 votes

those are big nerfs yeah..they finally got it right after fucking months

Vah Naboris8/7/2018, 12:47:23 PM1 votes

I personally don't think the bonus true damage from her E needs to be the same amount of damage from when you get hit by it. At the very least I would rather a percentage of true damage from only Zoe popping the bubble, allies should get magic damage. Now I also don't care for true damage to have such a profound part in kits to begin with but what can ya do. I'd like to see the bonus true damage reduced in the future, depending on how these nerfs go. If her Q received a good nerf maybe it wouldn't be unreasonable to have the true damage be the same, but if they don't touch Paddlestar then I would hope someday the true damage was toned down.

BlackEyesBlue8/7/2018, 1:36:50 PM1 votes

I play a lot of Zoe and this seems like the best way to nerf her.

People complain that she can miss both her skill shots and still kill them? Well now her point and click dmg is lower.

Just glad they didn't do something that would have left her clunky.

Aimléss8/7/2018, 9:28:23 AM1 votes

This is a bad nerf, her overall damage isn't the problem it's how she gets that damage off. The free W and passive damage was kinda dumb, but if you nerf those to the ground and don't redistribute them back into her skillshot abilities she's gonna be straight up trash.

Teridax688/7/2018, 8:52:47 AM1 votes

I definitely think these are big nerfs. The largest complaints currently levied against Zoe are that her more reliable sources of damage, namely her passive and W, are too strong, allowing her to kill opponents without landing Qs or Es. These are major reductions to her ratios, and a pretty meaningful reduction to her bases. I suspect her win rate may drop significantly as a result. However, I don't think these would really address her core problems, namely her RNG, Nidalee-like particularities to her Q, and so on, which suggests that these nerfs may be what she'll end up with for a long time.

Jeanne fan club8/8/2018, 1:19:28 AM1 votes

They aren't touching her E Q combo so any damage that she had outside of those 2 abilities was undeserved anyway

Nrsh8/9/2018, 10:29:01 PM1 votes

I play Zoe aswell and I really think she is a fun champ to play, but to be honest, I do feel like there is not much counter play to her at times. I wonder, do you guys think she should also have her Q nerfed? because I don't mind her getting any kind of nerf as long as she remains playable (I love playing challenging champs and the weaker she is the bigger the challenge)