Is AP MF mid underrated?

KnoblinSlayer·Nov 21, 2015·12 votes·4,588 views

I practiced her post patch in normals for a few days with a lot of success and was thinking this has to be a fluke, or must be trash bag normal games. Then i started playing her in high plat low diamond Solo Que, Duoing with a buddy and made him play Jarvan and I dont thik we even lost a game. 7 in a row. + = Best teamfight ever? I still have to do a lot more testing but i thought ide try and spark a conversation on the topic cause i want to learn from anybody else possibly trying this. Would love to hear some feedback

Runes Marks: Attack Speed Seals: AP per level Glyphs: Flat AP Quints: AP or Movement Speed

Masteries 18-0-12 Making sure to take "Deathfire Touch" in the offence tree

Build Order

36 Comments

Swains WurldNov 21, 20152 votes

While I can see the burst provided as clearly as anyone who watches the video, I do have to point out that it is a very situational spec, and unless you get a good early game then you could be in a bigger hole than if you were playing AD MissFortune . If you have the enemy team in a bottle-neck or have some/all of them caught in a bad place or if you have a good gank; then yes, she can melt face. However if, on the other hand, you are in a situation where they have an anti-mage (such as Galio or Kassadin ) focusing you then you could be in some danger. Or if you don't have someone on your team that can isolate a champion (like JarvanIV ) you won't be nearly as effective. Regardless, it is interesting to see a champ being played in a different, but more importantly, effective manner.

KnoblinSlayerNov 21, 20152 votes

I agree she has issues with anti mage assassins mid to late game. But the power of AP MF mid is her laning. Ive played against my fair share of Kassadin Zed Kas/Zed in Yolo Que, but since they are melee ranged champs I often times just Q bounce them out of lane a few times and they find themselves recalling 2-3 times more than me buying way more pots then they have to (which is a big deal since they cost 50g now!) and then they still find them selves down -30 farms or even more by 10 mins.

Her big combos are situational i agree. Its hard to find a good spot to bottleneck an entire team sometimes. But what are the two biggest objectives on the map? Dragon and Baron. Dragon a baron pit is basicly like a free JarvanIV ult on my team :D So every fight may not be a perfect setup to combo off, but there will be multiple oppertunities per game if you set up right.

My main issues in lane so far has been Ahri because she has good sustain and can get out of my ult easy. But i still find myself poking her out of lane.

GrintarNov 21, 20151 votes

opie opie

IcyPepperNov 21, 20151 votes

Why just AP mid?

Why not AP bot? Some ADC's can go mid, plus Miss Fortune could benefit from a support peeling. Mage Fortune can take towers just as well, imo.

KnoblinSlayerNov 21, 20152 votes

I agree she benifits from a support, but i also think she benifits more from being in a solo lane (Mid more so) because of how short the lane is she can farm safely. She can basically poke out any of the in meta mid laners with the exception of of maybe a Lulu.

So ill conclude she benifits more from having a support obviously who dosent? But i think the value of her is how hard she can smash a solo lane setting other midlaners behind while still have a good teamfight kit.

Scrambled AniviaNov 21, 20151 votes

i think its more the fact people dont play against it often enough to know how to deal with it.

just that surprise factor.

KnoblinSlayerNov 21, 20152 votes

Thats always true but when i can hit 2 buttons and wipe out an entire enemy team being surprised dose not change it:p

GinoSoldierNov 21, 20151 votes

I'm someone who plays mostly off-meta. Sona Mid, Orianna and Lux Jungle, Kindred Support among others. They all work quite well; they just need to be surrounded by the right teams. Especially in the cases of Orianna Jungle, she has surprisingly good jungle clear and once she hits Runeglaive, she basically never needs to back unless it's to buy. However, she needs a team with heavy engage to function well because of her utility-oriented kit. I've had great success in premades with champions like Leona at Supp, Yasuo at Mid, and Malphite at Top for instance.

TL;DR If you have the right team composition, pretty much any kind of champion can work pretty much anywhere, including AP MF mid.

KnoblinSlayerNov 21, 20151 votes

I agree every champ "CAN" work. Trust me I play a lot of "Off Meta" Champs too, which is why when i play AP MF it feels different. I don't feel like i'm at a disadvantage from champ select because i picked a weird champ. It just flows so smooth like she was made for the mid lane or something originally but they changed her ratios or something somewhere down the line lol.

But anyways i can respect a fellow meta changing pioneer 'Fistbump"

RoranaNov 21, 20151 votes

Honestly with the buffs to AD itemization and now that her ult can crit, I honestly think that its better just to build straight AD if you wanna go ult bot mf. You can just stack IEs/ERs and throw in a cleaver and her ult will just end up doing way more damage. Especially now that her ult can crit, I just think that going adc or straight AD/CRIT is just flat out better for her ult damage which was the only reason to really go ap mf in the first place. Lets say you get like 800ap late game, then her ult will end up doing around 2.5k dmg before mitigation.

On the flip side, if you just stack 2~~3 IEs, an ER and throw in a pen item, her ult will do around 5~~6k damage come late game BEFORE crits (and mitigation), and at that point the damage difference with her E between ad and ap builds becomes negligible.

I just think pure ad/crit stacking mf takes ap mf's niche and has better/easier itemization on top of that

**note I always loved ap mf before the changes, so I'm not really biased between either of the old builds (adc/ap) because I loved both

KnoblinSlayerNov 21, 20151 votes

I will not argue about AP ratios being better cause there not. Obviously AD scales way better with her kit and numbers don't lie.

But the point im trying to get across is that instead of playing her as a mid range ADC where you have to get generally close to auto attack your pho. You play her as a super far back line AP mage cannon much like Xerath or even a Velkoz who can stay far enough away from dangerous bruisers but still be able to decimate in a teamfight from far. And do good damage close if she has to.

As for building Penitration like you said. Its hard to efficiently buy pen because she has split damage between magic and physical, but on the contrary it also makes her hard to itemize agaisnt as well.

PhorrtifyNov 21, 20151 votes

This looks really good. Have you played any AD MF to contrast it with? I'd be interested to hear the differences you found.

KnoblinSlayerNov 21, 20151 votes

I have played AD MF quite a bit and I acualy got the idea to play AP MF by accidentaly taking the wrong runes haha. But AD MF is good. Its not great is pretty average because she has no mobility so she dies a lot.

As AP you can stay very far bag and kite ad AD you gotta get close to do your damage.

But AD MF is defenetly a good pick too. Im no bias :D

Poop JellyNov 21, 20151 votes

She is... But she requires good positioning, hybrid penetrations and sorta unconventional builds. I'd say guisnoo is good on her for offensive combat, other than that just go AP since her E is casted further now. Very underrated if you ask me.

KnoblinSlayerNov 21, 20151 votes

I completely agree with you about guinsoo. I finished editing the video before i found out how good it is. I wouldn't get it every game because it does lower the damage from item 3100 and item 3285 but it can defenetly replace item 3115 if your not to keen on CDR

Superior CurrentNov 21, 20151 votes

Yes it is very underrated. But I think it is pretty legit right now. Her laning fase is insane, and has a very strong team fight. I love palying her, people often disrespect Make it rain, which is basically a mini GP ult. I like mana regen seals for early game sapmming. Also 12-18-0 is also good for the 5% CDR ealry. As for items why do you take Rylais, slow no longer stacks with E? Have you tried ap MF support? The synergy between spellthief and E is ridicilous. You can literally zone out your enemies with your poke. I buy Watcher's eye, Liandrys, Morello and then big AP items.

KnoblinSlayerNov 21, 20151 votes

Never had any mana issues because of double item 1056 and item 3057 so mana regen seems not nesisary. But ill defenently try out the extra 5% cdr even know i will miss my Deathfire Touch Amumu . Liandrys seems good against the right team comp, ive built it once or twice against beefcake tanks.

Superior CurrentNov 21, 20151 votes

I have a mobafire guide on AP MF btw. http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/mage-fortune-is-real-412171 I would if you review it and give me new ideas.

KnoblinSlayerNov 21, 20151 votes

My only recommendations are that you always get item 3100 before item 3089

And get item 3158 instead of item 3020 so you dont have to waste an item slot on item 3165 for cdr

Widder88Nov 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I have a mobafire guide on AP MF btw. http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/mage-fortune-is-real-412171 I would if you review it and give me new ideas.

The thunderlords degree keystone mastery is great for MF, because one E will proc it, because it hits multiple times. The flat hybrid penetration form the cunning tree is also better than the % single-sided penetration from the ferocity tree, because AP MF does hybrid damage and flat pen is better against squshys. But the increased CDR mastery from cunning is a great option two, because CDR is very important for AP MF.

And I like Hextech Gunblade more than Ludens Echo, because it gives sustain, MF has great AD ratios, and the Gunbalde active does more damage than the Ludens passive.

KnoblinSlayerNov 21, 20151 votes

Ok i just tried thunderlords... and Wow pretty strong i gotta do some more tests thanks for that.

CoolKnightSTNov 21, 20151 votes

MF support is indeed really strong with spellthief. It was so fun to play to play in one for all mode. Now spellthiefs just got buffed it might be worth checking.

SpoofghoulNov 21, 20151 votes

u dont need relays better get liandries instead

KnoblinSlayerNov 21, 20151 votes

Why Liandries? Just currious

SpoofghoulNov 21, 20151 votes

for the E

You don't really use relays for anything else.

and the penetration is really good for ur hybrid damage

ElegantDogeNov 21, 20151 votes

She's a lot stronger as an ad,i don't see the point of going ap.You deal insane amout of damage as an ad,not only with her passiv but also her huge attack speed boost,your Q does serious damage even in late game and your ultimate can deal more than 3k5 in late game. So why AP? I mean..i've played her since season 1 in various ways,ap only had one good tool:her E. And it was much stronger before as ap,now it feels underwhelming compared to AD.

KnoblinSlayerNov 21, 20151 votes

Ap mainly since we have seen a fall off of mid lane assassins Kassadin Zed Talon . People are just not playing these champions anymore. So having a champion like MF, AP MF in particular that can deal "TONS OF DAMAGE" from 1000 range all of a sudden is untouchable. And if sombody wants to try and close that 1000 Range gap they have to get shreaded by a full wave of Make it Rain which if you are going AP is close to a thousand damage. And with item 3100 item 3285 and upgraded boots u have 520 movement speed. You cant be touched.

The raw power and damage of AD is better your right, but its so hard to kill an AP MF backline with deceptive damages.

ElegantDogeNov 22, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Siontist,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TduzwYEr,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2015-11-21T18:58:36.481+0000)

Ap mainly since we have seen a fall off of mid lane assassins . People are just not playing these champions anymore. So having a champion like MF, AP MF in particular that can deal "TONS OF DAMAGE" from 1000 range all of a sudden is untouchable. And if sombody wants to try and close that 1000 Range gap they have to get shreaded by a full wave of Make it Rain which if you are going AP is close to a thousand damage. And with and upgraded boots u have 520 movement speed. You cant be touched.

The raw power and damage of AD is better your right, but its so hard to kill an AP MF backline with deceptive damages.

Only her E will deal damage. Yes it's annoying since it slows you as well.But after that ?Her ultimate damages are less higher than the ad version AND if she gets cut(being at 1000 range doesn't make you untouchable)you do NOTHING anymore. My point is,she's just fun may be but that's it.Of course,i already played MF ap and made it work even in normal games but can't take these as examples as it's usually a clown fiesta even with a diamond MMR.

If i want a "untouchable" champ who can poke you from far away ,i'd take Azir Xerath Zilean and much more. Frankly,everytime i played seriously against a ap mf(it was rare) i never lost.She's damn easy to play against now because playing her ap doesn't make it worth anymore.At least before,her ultimate were magic damage,her W had a ap ratio. Now,only her E is ap and it has a high CD....

Widder88Nov 21, 20151 votes

It is underrated. E is great for waveclear and the range was increased last patch. It is a really great tool. But pure AP Miss Fortune needs to snowball, if she falls behind she falls off harder than AD Miss Fortune. On the other hand AD MF has no waveclear. Because of this I really think Hybrid MF is the best.

I played a lot of Hybrid Miss Fortune last Season. My build was:

Dorans Ring
Morellonomicon/Nashors tooth
Ionian boots
Liandries Torment (great when ahead, useless when behind)
Trinity force
Last Whisper
Hextech-Gunblade

But some things have changed last patch:

Her E range was increased by 200. (Great for AP)
Her ult AP ratio was increased to 320% from 160%.
On the other hand her ult AD ratio was increased to 1200% from somewhat like 200-300%, and it scales with crit now.
Her new Q makes lasthitting easy, and scales great with AD, because of this lasthitting is easy, and E doesn't have to clear the backline necessarily.
Base AD is extremely low now, so Triforce is not as good as before.
Essence Reaver gives tons of CDR and solves all mana problems.

Because of the insane AD ratio on R, and easy lasthitting with her passive, I like to go for Essenzreaver+IE now. Because of the low base AD and the higher AP ratio on ult i like to go for Lich bane instead of Triforce now.

Now my build looks like this:

Dorans Ring
Essence Reaver
Infinity edge
Lich bane
Attack speed boots or defence boots
Hextech Gunblade
Last item: Don't know. Games don't last that long.

A sheen item is great because Q has a CD of something like 1.6-1.7 s with this build, but Triforce doesn't do higher sheen damage than Lich bane even with Low AP now, because of the very low base AD. And Lich bane is better for E+R. So I go for Lich bane even tough it seems to have no synergy with IE. Hextech Gunblade is great for strong E and R and easy long range healing with E, so I prefer it over Bloodthirster.

Good matchups for Miss Fortune are poke mages, because MF is just better. Bad matchups are engage champions.

I use this build in bot lane too, but mid is the better position because of the waveclear and the tower behind you. Max E first.

KnoblinSlayerNov 21, 20151 votes

That was a really informative post. AD has the better ratios your right but i feel just in general AP Caster MF just feels like her playstyle. AD has to get general close to do the damages and ive never had much trouble killing an AD mf cause her range is like 550 i think. But if at like 1000 range casting E and R and bouncing Q's unless i'm getting flash W and Ulted by a Zed Im pretty safe.

I agree she has to snowball to be most effective. But her kit screams SNOWBALL THE LANE because Q crits and pokes can beat anybodys lane.

Widder88Nov 21, 20151 votes

I think the point is, that her E is a very powerful ability. It grants high pressure in lane and safe waveclear. But it only scales with AP, so you have to go for at least some AP (and for CDR!). Full AD MF is just not worth it in comparison and "feels wrong". At least this was the case before patch 5.22.

So you have to build some AP and CDR, but the question is how much AP is really worth. In the Late Game AD MF can do insane damage with Autoattacks, at this point it doesn't matter that much if one E takes away 25% of the health of an enemy or 50%. You should be able to clear a minion wave from range, but AAs overall scale better.

Hybrid MF feels the best for me. I get some AP from runes an masteries and from Dorans Ring and I max E first, so in the early laning phase I am just AP MF. In the last season I would have built Morellos now, for CDR and mana, but it feels now a little bit underwhelming compared to Essence reacer + Cloak of agility, what gives 30% CDR and more mana reg. The passive and the Ult scales better with AD now, so the damage with Essence Reaver is really good. It is a little bit less E-focused playstyle in the mid game but just very strong atm imo.

KnoblinSlayerNov 21, 20151 votes

Well even as AP MF Im still maxing Q first for lane, and then E for teamfights. Not even taking a point in W until I have too.

There is defenetly potential for a hybrid build. item 3124 item 3146 item 3078

Widder88Nov 21, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Siontist,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TduzwYEr,comment-id=000b000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-21T19:10:24.532+0000)

Well even as AP MF Im still maxing Q first for lane, and then E for teamfights.

Q gets only 15/30 damage per Level, while E gets 55 damage. I never played AD MF much, so I'm not that confident with a Q focused playstyle in lane, but it is a strong ability now because it applys her passive even without much points into it. Without strong E you need to do more AAs to farm, what makes her vulnerable to poke and all-ins. On the other hand if all enemy minions are dead, the opponent can not do much to you and he takes minion damage.

Not even taking a point in W until I have too.

It gives the passive movement speed now. 1 point is necessary imo.

KnoblinSlayerNov 21, 20151 votes

Yea E gets more per level than Q does but you cant nessisarily base every decision you make on just damage ### you also got to think of practicality because Q is a much shorter cooldown and cost less mana so your able to use it a lot more in lane in relation to her E not to mention her Q applies on hit damage so on your first back you pick up a item 3057 and your Q's some good damage plus you get the bonus damage from bouncing it and they can crit. If you max E and try poking with that in lane you will find yourself out of mana fast.

Poke with Q and finish a kill with E Q summoner 14 once you have poked them down

Chuck CharlesNov 21, 20151 votes

while not the worst thing in the world in the right situations, AD mf is almost always better. 75% ad ratio per wave in ult, and 20% ap ratio for each wave. while AP is MUCH more plentiful and results in beastly ults, your ultimate will still no matter what be physical damage. Factor in that each wave can critically strike and the 1200% ad ratio minimum for the full duration ult can be even greater. as opposed to 320% ap. that said, the ult with that kind of ratio can do absurd damage if you go full ap, but again because its physical damage it won't benefit from pen so if you go this route, its probably best to not waste anything getting any pen since the reason you do this is for the ultimate. the E does great damage too so its useful when being chased through choke points or as a zoning tool, but its pretty unreliable in c omparison to any other ap mage.

AD miss fortune much better, but you asked if AP MF is underrated. My answer to that on a personal bias is no. People are well aware that she is somewhat useful if you go AP, but why would you when AD provides most of the same benefits while also drastically increasing her overall DPS. Her W has a 120% attack speed instant steroid for 3 seconds which is pretty damn good. so not going ad puts that to waste pretty hard.

Count BuffonNov 21, 20151 votes

Test run in bots. Feels punchy, and has nice mixed damage. Luden's and Lich Bane for sure. I'm skeptical about whether the DPS can keep up against a tanky comp or not. Could be a mid lane MF?