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So has Veigar now officially been slapped by the ChampUp Trademark "Fixed" sticker then?

MrSc0tty·4/4/2015, 4:05:17 PM·87 votes·6,007 views

Has riot sufficiently pumped enough excessive power into his most boring and only usable skill that he has a high enough winrate they can point to and say "there now he's fine" and he's ready to join the ranks of Skarner Rengar Olaf Casseopia Viktor Karma and the other "Successful" reworks? Doomed to forever exist but be so hideously countered by League of Mobility that he will never be picked, locked in a limbo of stagnation?

It kinda looks like it. So his W and E will never get to become interesting, usable skills? Well, rats.

Seriously, Champion Update team, why do you do this? Why are you convinced that the most fun skills in the entire game are either A) line skillshots or B) Targeted damage taps? How long are we going to get stuck with the following formula:

  1. Did this champion have a targeted skill? If yes,

  2. Make it a skillshot! Maybe with a slow! Did this champion have skillshots that didnt end up working out too well?

  3. Load power into a targeted skill, that'll make the champion more reliable!

Finally 4) Add a stupid gimmick/mini-game that nobody likes playing.

Final check 5) Make sure champion still has no way to deal with mobility creep. If they do, nerf it immediately following their release.

165 Comments

junglerboy164/4/2015, 5:24:39 PM51 votes

Hey, Viktor actually was successful (they fixed his passive and that's about it). Karma is healthy and balanced (although not necessarily pleasing to Karma players because she is not the same champ she used to be). Skarner isn't that bad right now, he just has a different type of stickiness and his durability comes mostly from his shield to make up for the removal of the heal proc from E. Rengar, Cass, Olaf, and Veigar though? Yeah, Riot screwed them up pretty handily (rengar not as badly, but still on a similar spectrum).

Rinky Dinky4/4/2015, 6:25:53 PM18 votes

People over exagerating the changes arent helping either -_-

Make changes to W like they said they would and he will be fine

Also, his winrate is 50% for a reason. People seem to think "Winrate only matters if it proves my point" on the GD lmao

Edit: Damn people are crying for the wrong reasons.

Q changes were a buff. You will have more AP than before. You will farm easier than Before. They want veigar to q farm. This is a fact.

W was buffed numerically, this is a fact.

E was nerfed, but gained new utilty (Blocks Dashes). This is a fact.

Ult was nerfed numerically, but Q buffs make it stronger. This is a fact.

Passive was flat out buffed. This is a fact.

The ONLY problem is W. That is it. His stun is not coming back. They don't want him being played for his stun, they want him being played as a burst mage who prioritizes farm in lane until 6. That is fine. That is healthy. The stun isnt even THAT bad. Its amazing in teamfights, and is still amazing for making picks.

His only problem is w still relies stupidly hard on his E. Too much so. It is useless in lane., except for waveclear, which is bad BECAUSE they want you to Q farm. W was designed to be used as follow up for E, and due to E being 5X more situational (WHICH IT SHOULD BE), W NEEDS CHANGES.

Lower the Delay in some way. Thats what they need to do. Shit, give him a whole new ability if they want (Seems kinda stupid to do tho).

Were the changes a nerf to lanebully veigar? Yeah. They were. Were they a buff to the way he was ment to be played? Yes. Problem is, until he gets his W fixed, Syndra, Annie, and Viktor are far safer picks.

ModAcademy Kayn4/4/2015, 4:58:08 PM9 votes

Vieger had two click and point nukes. Something had to go.

CupcakeTrap4/4/2015, 6:39:21 PM7 votes

New Veigar might well become more powerful than old Veigar, but he's so much less interesting to play. And if there's one trait common to Veigar mains, it's that they weren't really that interested in playing the most OP champs. (There would be times I would try a FotM mid and just be astonished at how much better I did with them despite literally thousands of Veigar games. But I kept playing Veigar.)

It's funny, too, because by all rights I should be EXACTLY the person to love the Veigar changes:

  • I was always really bad at landing my stun with the edge. I got killed a lot as a result. My friends would routinely chide me over it: "Cupcake, you've played like 2,000 Veigar games, why can you not hit with your stupid E?"
  • I like trying quirky item builds, and I disliked having to build DFG every match.
  • My micro/twitch reflexes are quite poor, and I would often fail to realize that DFG hadn't fired, e.g. because of a range issue or because the spell-queue was overloaded. (Leading to me on the death screen going "Wait, why didn't she die—WHY IS DFG NOT ON COOLDOWN?")
  • I love linear long-range skillshots like Ezreal's Q.
  • I love delayed abilities like Cho's Rupture, because of all the mindgames you can play.

But I still don't really like New Veigar. Cho's Rupture ("UP you go!") is interesting and effective because it's a filled circle, and it's timed just so that if you place it with the enemy in the center, they have to immediately run for the edge to avoid being knocked up. You can also time it to block a path. It's interesting. Veigar's new Event Horizon, in contrast, really only works if the enemy is an idiot and runs into it, or is already stunned.

Veigar's new power budget seems to be about poke damage and, well, general stat buffs. He feels quite boring in fights.

It's not all bad, no. It's not a disaster. I'll keep trying to learn to like it. As I wrote above, if anyone should like the New Veigar, it should be me. But I'd rather have seen his buff budget poured into giving him a really interesting E that created some strategic choice, rather than just being a stun that only stuns people in Bronze.

LordBrasca4/4/2015, 6:56:34 PM7 votes

I was a great fan of veigar... Now not. His new playstyle is too much unrealible, before the nerf i was able to do some sort of skill matchup even if they hard counter me now i really can't. They pick talon mid and he will dive you at 6 without any problem, same goes for every champ with a dash (even if lb can't pass the wall she will be anyways in range for her spells). I was hoping so much to see more changes for him, i would be glad to see his ratios nerfed if the purpose is to make W and E more interesting... But i guess i will have to give up. Even if i'm not against one of my counters in mid now i'm basically forced to just farm Q because E and W relies too much on how much is stupid the enemy laner.

If nothing changes then i doubt that i will play him again... He's so much boring in the current state.

Sailor Mint4/4/2015, 4:24:22 PM7 votes

he's ready to join the ranks of Skarner Rengar Olaf Casseopia Viktor Karma and the other "Successful" reworks? Doomed to forever exist but be so hideously countered by League of Mobility that he will never be picked, locked in a limbo of stagnation?

With the possible exception of Skarner, they've all seen competitive play this season.

OperationDEEZ14/4/2015, 7:56:59 PM5 votes

Did you just call viktor bad? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESuWnNW5H7o

Rico Nasty4/4/2015, 5:31:17 PM5 votes

karma's rework was actually better for her, she was a bad, squishy, confusing champ before her rework, and now she's a fairly balanced mage-support.

Jungle Lux God4/4/2015, 6:18:16 PM4 votes

All of the reworks that Riot has done were successful at achieving their purposes for the rework, but most players don't see that aspect. They see how the champion is balanced after the rework separate from the goals, and don't take the time to really look at the overarching goals of the rework separated from the balance aspects.

All of these reworks that you mentioned were successful at achieving their purposes, but that doesn't mean that they are in a good spot balance-wise. Veigar's rework was successful strictly from a goal perspective, as his changes were designed to reduce the reliability in his burst and emphasize the Q-farming mechanic. However, players see his rework from the balance perspective, and by that perspective it's easy to see that Veigar's rework was an overwhelming failure.

Cassiopeia, Karma, and Trundle are the only exceptions to this rule. Cassiopeia's rework was a success both in terms of goals (reduce lane bully capacity and accentuate her late-game strengths) and balance (she's seeing quite a bit of competitive play), but a lot of players term it as a failure because they liked to play old Cassiopeia as a poison mage instead of her current style. Karma was a success from goals and balance (at least after a few patches of buffing her), but many players deem it a failure because of how it changed her character. Trundle's "rework" was also successful from both a goals and balance perspective (even though he barely got any kit changes at all), but again, some players are mad that his thematics got changed.