We need a new tenacity item already.

Polaritie·9/30/2014, 4:14:50 AM·22 votes·1,695 views

Currently, the only tenacity items on SR are Golem, Zephyr, and the ubiquitous treads. The problem is that Treads is the only option for many champions, forcing them to forgo any benefits of other boots if the enemy team has serious CC at all.

Zephyr is great for marksmen and some bruisers and such. Golem is a jungle item, and much of its power comes from stacking more HP on it and non-combat stats.

So that leaves treads the sole option for mages, other bruisers, supports, etc.

I don't think we need some pure-defense HP+tenacity item - that would be silly, and possibly just take over treads entirely. I do think there need to be viable alternatives for mages and supports though. Sorcerers vs. Mercs is a particularly painful choice, but it feels like it's 90% mercs because you can always buy Void Staff but can't get anything else to cover for tenacity.

Part of this is that I wish we still had Moonflair as an option - I never did catch why it got removed, since I don't recall it ever rising above niche pick.

15 Comments

Lneacx9/30/2014, 9:02:48 AM17 votes

My stance on Tenacity is that Tenacity is a bruiser's stat, as opposed to a tank or glass carry's stat - which is why you don't really need many options for it. (I define a tank as primarily CC-oriented, so as far as I'm concerned Champions like Shyvana and Mundo are bruisers - they offer sustained damage, not CC).

As a tank, your contribution to a teamfight tends to come in bursts of utility based on your cooldowns, on top of simply being tanky. Your job is to blow cooldowns to either initiate or peel, so you don't have much sustained contribution - you don't do much without your cooldowns anyways, so you don't lose much by being CC'd. Generally I'd even say that, as a tank, you shouldn't expect much CC - if they CC you instead of your carries or bruisers, you've already done your job. Because tanks have burst contribution and are too tanky to be focused, Tenacity (or any CC reduction) probably won't help much - this is why I agree with Riot's decision to remove the tenacity from Golem.

Bruisers tend to contribute sustained damage and tankiness. That means that if they get CC'd, they'll always lose out on their damage contribution, so it's valuable to reduce the time of CC on them. They prefer Tenacity over cleansing actives because their defensive itemization means that they'll get hit by, and survive, multiple waves of CC.

AP carries (Mages and AP Assassins) tend to contribute bursts of damage based on cooldowns, but they're also fragile: you're a liability when your skills are on cooldown. Generally, if you get CC'd as an AP carry, you're dead even with Tenacity - the difference between a 2-second stun and a 1.33-second stun is minimal when you're bursted out in 1 second. Because they contribute based on cooldown rotations and are so fragile, AP Carries will choose the stasis of Zhonya's over Tenacity any day. You're useless without cooldowns anyways - might as well spend that time being under an untargetable self-CC rather than getting caught by an actual CC.

AD carries have sustained contribution, but are also fragile. Fragility means that Tenacity won't help them much, but AD carries' sustained damage means that they desire CC reduction. This means that they prefer cleansing actives: it reduces the duration of a single CC to practically zero if used perfectly, and they get to keep their constant damage. Mercurial Scimitar and Mikael's tend to do this job well, but the reaction-based actives mean that you don't see them much outside of competitive.

AD assassins seem to have a wonky spot: they're fragile and contribute in burst (like AP carries), but don't have Zhonya's. Same story for sustained AP carries like Kayle and Cass - they're fragile and sustained, but don't have cleanses. I'm going to presume that these champions; individual kits have ways to counter this deficit, though. In any case, their fragility means that Tenacity isn't the answer.

TL;DR CC reduction is preferred mainly by Sustained champions who have the Tankiness to survive multiple waves of CC - which is why only Bruisers really need it. Sustained-Fragile champions are usually AD carries who prefer the one-time save of cleanses; Burst-Fragile champions are usually mages or AP assassins, who don't have anything to do while their skills are on cooldown (and so prefer the stasis of Zhonya's); and Burst-Tanky champions are usually tanks who have nothing to lose to CC anyways. Exceptions tend this rule tend to be rare, and rely more on their kits to work than itemization.

If Riot introduces any new Tenacity itemization, I believe it should be directed exclusively towards bruisers over any other class.

Exactly what Tenacity items should look like in terms of stats, cost, and trade-offs is an entirely different question.

ChaosThief9/30/2014, 1:40:28 PM8 votes

Golem no longer provides tenacity... I'm pretty sure.

Sire Hippington9/30/2014, 7:48:41 PM4 votes

Simply makeing item 3170 available in SR would already help alot, and maybe adding tenacity to warmongs so tanks/bruisers have another tanacity option besides mercs while Warmongs gets the little buff it needs

edit: another problem with tenacity: knock ups and displaces. Alot forms off hard cc are not affeckted by tenacity, which makes it somewhat lackluster. At least kockup-duration should get affeckted by it. affeckting displaces might cause some more trubles, as usually u expect ur enemy to travel a certain distance if u make a play with lees ult or alistars flash q+w, which could get disturbed by tenacity

Cloud Potato9/30/2014, 4:31:18 AM3 votes

Weakening enemy CC is a very powerful stat to have. If it were on a good item it would be bought every game, most likely. How is that different from Mercury's Treads now? It isn't, really. Bringing in a new Tenacity item (or items) would just mean you either get that item(s), or Mercury's Treads every game. It would still be an improvement though, but it kinda sucks how important Tenacity is to have.

YouLostMe9/30/2014, 5:32:14 AM3 votes

I agree. I'd like to see an AP-oriented tenacity item and a health-oriented tenacity item. Putting MR with Tenacity is kind of underwhelming if you're facing AD-heavy teams with CC-oriented jungle/supports. Like if your enemy is Darius, Zed, Jinx, Leona, Nautilus.

exiledFromBadmen10/1/2014, 4:59:58 PM3 votes

item 3207 doesn't have Tenacity anymore...

Makra10/2/2014, 8:05:50 AM2 votes

Agreed OP, it doesn't make sense that ADCs and fighters have a tenacity item available to them which also include offensive stats, while mages don't. I was thinking of making the same thread myself.

WoonStruck10/1/2014, 5:10:09 PM1 votes

It won't really matter much since the game is becoming knock-up city.

Also, why should APs have even stronger itemization relative to the other classes, barring ADC.

They already have the strongest itemization. Until they fix tanks and bruisers, I'm not in favor of giving any more itemization to AP champions.

deathmage39010/1/2014, 5:37:08 PM1 votes

how about a new tenacity item that has hp regen on it. both those stats need new items and they work well together.