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Sona's Rework - Discussion thread

JimmynatorB·7/29/2014, 11:57:53 PM·16 votes·13,530 views

So the rework is hitting live. You can post your suggestions / worries / thanks in this thread. Here are some guidelines:

  1. Please, don't say OMG RITO YOU KILLED SONA GG WP. Keep the discussion constructive and let's try to help Fearless instead of giving him headaches and depressing him.
  2. Ignore comments of the sort of "Riot doesn't care" or "This is just bad". Don't harass Riot or other people. It doesn't help anyone pointing out mistakes and not giving any solution.
  3. Inform yourself before offering a suggestion and make sure it hasn't been discussed before, otherwise you're going to be ignored.
  4. Please, post your thoughts before up- or downvoting a post. This way people will know why their post is being disliked or liked.

Why was Sona reworked?

Essentially, we took Sona to the update board because we saw a unique opportunity to make her more rewarding and more fun. She wasn’t terribly strong or weak, but her kit clearly lacked high moments and overall satisfaction. We wanted to keep her theme as it was and retain her awesome Crescendo while giving her basic abilities a more visible and tangible impact. Oh, and if we could sneak in some fancy texture updates in the process (and we could!), then all the better.

- Fearless

What is the rework supposed to feel like?

Sona’s gameplay now revolves more around moments of power. Instead of hanging back and winning a war of attrition during laning, Sona’s now got the kit to power up her allies and save their lives when a fight turns against them. Auras are smaller and more visible now, so getting the most of them requires great positional awareness for Sona and coordination with her allies. This allows us to reward great play with much more impact for each of her songs. You’ll be able to make plays as Sona, earn your team kills and save lives with clutch ability casts and smart positioning. At the same time, the enemy team has larger windows to fight back in thanks to her longer cooldowns, adding in clarity and counterplay to Sona’s kit. We can't wait to see what players can do with her update.

- Fearless

Here's the rework page for reference: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/champion-update/sona-maven-of-the-strings

Please remember to like the thread so that the conversation doesn't die and to keep the thread on top of the page (It would be nice if it could be made a sticky post, but I don't have the power to do that).

103 Comments

Straight Jackin7/30/2014, 1:56:39 AM13 votes

I've played 296 ranked games as Sona over Season 3 and 4. I've felt like Sona has been in a good place for the last 2 seasons. She has a lower than average pick rate. No one has ever requested me to play her in champ select. No one considers her God tier support. Sometimes people will even ask me if I can play Morgana instead when I go to pick her. However every Sona main I know seems very happy with where she is. How many champs in this game can you say that about unless that champ is overpowered?

She feels extremely balanced currently as she is on Live.

Reworking Sona so that everyone in game knows that after she uses an ability she'll probably move in the direction of her ADC to 'tag' them is a serious telegraph. Making her squishier early game, lowering her aura range and increasing her cooldowns is going to kill her early laning phase. Currently I take Q at lvl 1. Every Sona main knows that if you get hit by anything at lvl 1 you are in a VERY bad spot compared to most supports.

I don't like the direction they are taking her at all. I'm at work and don't have a lot of time but there's other problems/issues this will cause.

Rozzeta7/30/2014, 1:10:36 AM11 votes

So, Sona's rework is released, as an experiment, in early stages of testing. Only 27 days later the rework is hitting live.

ShadowGlaive2137/30/2014, 12:48:49 AM10 votes

I wish they included the numbers changes on her page. I think it's more visible whether or not something is is being buffed or nerfed if you actually look at the numbers. When the changes to Nid came they displayed all of her numbers, it feels like they're hiding it for Sona = =; I already posted my thoughts on a forum I made yesterday so I guess I could just repeat it here.

Sona is my main support and while I haven't been keeping count I'm fairly certain I've played over 100 games with her. I don't have PBE access so I haven't been able to try the new Sona. I love Sona how she is and I find this rework completely unwarranted. Despite many players saying she's under powered or can't compete with current high pick supports, she's had an over 50% win rate for quite some time. The justification for the rework is that Sona is unsatisfying to play and lacks play making ability outside of her ult, and that much of her power is invisible because they reside in her auras. Not everyone will or can appreciate the aura support play style that is a huge part of Sona's identity. Not all play styles will be popular in comparison to others, much like not all genres of music will be popular in comparison to others. I don't understand why Sona must be changed to conform to more popular play styles when there are over 100 other champs to choose from who can be flashy or make plays if that's the desired style. If her auras are too invisible new visual effects should take care of that, or at least try that first. The new VFX should help players realize and take notice of Sona's auras more. Appreciation is sure to follow realization. Reworking her kit without trying just the VFX first seems like cutting off a leg because of an infection without trying antibiotics first or something of the sort. I also feel that part of Sona is that she is seen as one of the lower skill cap champs and often relaxing to play as a result, and I don't think that should change. If you MUST give her more play making ability I like an idea my brother came up with where if you get a certain combination of chord procs you get a new effect. For example, since it is possible to get 2 chords off if charged initially, hitting an enemy with an e chord and an additional e chord before the effects of the first chord wear off results in a root. If more visibility is needed the first chord can mark the target like Nid's abilities now do. It doesn't make sense to me to change Sona from an aura support to a friendly AoE caster nor do I find the idea of chasing allies to tag them appealing.

To add to that I don't like how her ratios have been cut. I liked the fact that Sona had an AP off build and disapprove of Riot funneling supports into one role, as they've attempted to do with Lulu and Soraka. I agree with many others on the fact that her range decrease is an AoE hazard and that she really doesn't have any added play making ability, she still has to rely on her ult for that. Her increased cooldowns also take away Sona's ability to spam which was a huge part of her gameplay identity imo.

KnightSlayer1157/30/2014, 3:07:36 AM9 votes

posted this earlier but, i will put it here

I spot a myrid of flaws with this.... but i will name the main ones 1- Sona, pre-4.13, was based around aiding allies constantly and giving them a buff/HP at Any time With this update (Which needs a rework), she now has to be more precise, making it harder for newer supports to get into being supports... which that brings me to problem number 2 2- You first designed her as a beginner support that was fun to play and rewarding to beginner and expert supports, and I, like a lot of other people, main Sona because of this... now newer supports will suffer due to her "new gameplay", which is not rewarding, in fact, she is now more tedious... I love Sona, but this is a real kick in the happy place to the poor mute... 3- She needed to stay back because of her low defenses, and her kit was designed to help her AND allies so she can: A) not die and B) make sure her allies don't die annd C) make sure the enmey dies. Now she is much more suspectable to the powers that be ganks and enemy pushing... I know you will probably ingore this... but just, let the mute girl be.. Though the VU is much needed.. but thats about it...

JimmynatorB7/30/2014, 12:17:43 AM8 votes

First off, I think the rework has made her more fun to use overall. Her new Q and W are pretty awesome and the snuggle zone mechanic makes her a really fun support to play. Her ult keeps being that old teamfighting wonder we've all grown to like and her passive keeps being a good gameplay mechanic that makes you mix and match your abilities to get the desired effect.

Then there's her E, which I feel could be better. Maybe it's just me, but her E doesn't give me the desired feedback. It basically only gives good feedback when initiating a teamfight, meaning that while laning and disengaging the ability feels weak. The ability is very selfish if you don't tag allies with it, which is strange given her other two abilities can support your team even when you can't tag them. Given this, I'd suggest giving it a better active so that we can feel we are helping our team even when we aren't able to tag allies with it.

Her weaknesses are AOE comps and all-ins, while her strengths are giving team-wide sustain and damage that can help skew a fight heavily in favour of sona's team, and let's not forget her wonderful initiation with her ult and E. All of this gives sona fairly good weaknesses and strengths that can be balanced around if one of them is abusive for Sona or the enemies.

Potential57/30/2014, 8:41:46 PM8 votes

Speaking of suggestions... I posted this earlier, but it got downvoted to invisibility (I think?). I've always loved Sona, and I'm eager to play her to see the rework, but I just wanted to know that the following possibility has been considered. Also if I wait, I'll probably forget to post this, heh.

Sona's basic abilities now get strengthened by ranks in Crescendo. Instead of just having more "invisible" power, I thought it would be a lot cooler for her aura ranges to increase with ranks in Crescendo (could have it in addition to the more direct numerical increase--that's up to balance).

  • Sure, it makes thematic sense for a crescendo to amplify the power of her auras, but I think it also makes sense (and physical sense, too) for her allies to be able to hear them from farther away.
  • The new aura zones necessitate a major playstyle shift for Sona, causing her to have to be more up front in fights to tag her allies. But the problem everyone has been complaining about is that she's too squishy to do this reliably later in the game (even midgame) in basically anything except a poke comp. As fights grow larger and she concurrently ranks up Crescendo, this way she gets slightly more wiggle room to manage (danger + tagging allies) vs. (safety). So, I think this change would keep Sona's potential effectiveness on par with the natural pace of the game.
  • I'm certain these range increases would have to be very small, but small radius increases should still have a very visible effect, as it's the area of the zones that's most visible, and possibly what's most important (though I guess area vs. radius being important depends on the situation).
  • Rather than thinking of it as simply making it easier for Sona to tag everyone as she ranks up ult, I would rather say this mechanic would give her a larger area of allied influence (which seems to be part of the premise of the rework), which could potentially affect team play in interesting ways in fights, etc., as Sona's allies try to interact (and have more possibilities opened up) with her zones. She of course shouldn't be allowed to sit way out of danger and tag everyone on her team, as if she had her old auras but instead with these more powerful tag effects--but again, that's numbers balance.

It might be tougher to balance than just having aura strength increases, but I think it's much more interesting and might alleviate some frustrations of her being too in danger to contribute meaningfully in larger fights.

As I said, I haven't really played her much yet, so I don't know if this is totally unreasonable. But regardless, I still think it's a cool idea, and of course I hope it is in fact reasonable.

Iripley7/31/2014, 1:20:40 AM8 votes

I am a little upset and unhappy with the update and the way it was handled. This is not Sona to me, sorry.

We were told our feedback would be taken into consideration. A Lot of the feedback was negative and not much changed even with negative feedback. Except Riot ceased for the most part communicating on the Sona Rework

I am not trying to be rude but abandoning the boards and not commenting or talking to the community even if people were being rude or mean or whatever, in my opinion is tacky and a bit immature. At least a comment like "hey we have reviewed the feedback up to whateverdate and are working hard on the update more to come" but to abandon most/all communication because your upset by trolls is unprofessional again imo.

Especially after the community was told that things would be different with the Sona rework and that our input would be taken into consideration and that she would have a longer period of testing to ensure the rework went well.

My take on this is that overall Sona was reworked to make her more Flashy. I will take real power over perceived power any day thanks

The rework is mediocre at best and the way it was managed in regards to the community was abysmal.

JimmynatorB7/30/2014, 2:49:39 AM7 votes

For those asking for numbers and claiming she got nerfed:

Old Q damage + 1 auto:

  • Level 1: 52 + 50% AP + base AD + 4 AD
  • Level 9: 260 + 50% AP + base AD + 20 AD
  • Level 18: 260 + 50% AP + base AD + 20 AD

Rework Q damage + 1 auto: (14% more CD)

  • Level 1: 80 + 75% AP + base AD
  • Level 9: 290 + 75% AP + base AD
  • Level 18: 310 + 75% AP + base AD

Old W heal:

  • Level 1 (50% health): 40 + 25% AP (+ 6 armor/MR)
  • Level 9 (50% health): 55 + 25% AP (+ 7 armor/MR)
  • Level 18 (50% health): 100 + 25% AP (+ 10 armor/MR)

Rework W heal: (43% more CD)

  • Level 1 (50% health): 30 + 30% AP (+ 40 + 20% AP shield)
  • Level 9 (50% health): 60 + 30% AP (+ 70 + 20% AP shield)
  • Level 18 (50% health): 150 + 30% AP (+ 150 + 20% AP shield)

Old E buff:

  • Level 1: 4% + 2% AP + 4 flat MS
  • Level 9: 4% + 2% AP + 4 flat MS
  • Level 18: 12% + 2% AP + 20 flat MS

Rework E buff: (71% more CD)

  • Level 1: 10% + 7.5% AP
  • Level 9: 12% + 7.5% AP
  • Level 18: 20% + 7.5% AP
It Is I Emoto7/30/2014, 1:24:20 AM7 votes

I'm kind of afraid of her update, because the snuggle zone mechanics are.. really dangerous. Sona can easily be caught out of position and she get bursted down. Riot thought about that problem (of course) and gave her a higher health scaling, and that's of course a good thing. otherwise, I feel like it'd be better to make her w shield last 3 seconds instead of 1.5. The shield duration is so low, that it probably won't tank any damage off if someone get focused. And her new e is.. pretty selfish, since sona benifits the most out of. I remember that her pre-rework e also gave a speed buff to minions, now it doesn't anymore. I really liked it that it gaves actually a speed buff to minions, so she can help them coming faster in lane.

But They gave sona more strenghts. Her Q is now a inbuilt lichbane, her w gives a shield that scales with ap, and her ult empowers those abilities as well. the only issue for me is her e. How are you supposed to help teammates that are like really behind? going back to them, just to give them a speed boost is really risky.

And to keep calling her abilities "songs".. well, they must be the fastest songs ever.

I'd be happy if they gave her reworked e also the active of her old e. It would be really helpful.

I usually build Sona as AP support, I know it's kind of dumb, but it's really helpful. 40% cdr, a Archangels Staff, A sightstone, Frostqueens Claim, Athenes Grail, and a Deathcap, those were usually my items that I picked up. My heals were incredible strong, the speed buff is extreme and my powerchord damage did hit the sky. with the upcoming Sona changes, I might be more risky with going AP support, but it might be really strong. Depends on the player of course.

Sincere

VapidActions7/31/2014, 3:31:57 AM6 votes

I've been playing a lot of games trying to get the hang of the new Sona, and what I've found is she gets horribly abused in lane (currently gold), and seems unable to trade effectively any more. So I did a quick bit of mathyness to see if there was any truth to it. For the comparison i matched Sona against Janna, another support I would place in the same tier as the old Sona. Make of the numbers what you will, But I always saw Sona as being successful, winning lanes from heavy poke and harrass. These numbers don't appear to support that anymore. Please note this does not take into consideration runes, masteries, items, or other players as they could be perfectly balanced, or be too chaotic. This is a straight up trade, where Sona maximizes effectiveness of new Q. Again not PERFECT math. make of it what you will.

** Janna: ** E: shield provides 80 +.7AP absorbtion, and 14 + .1AP AD at level 1. Effective health for trade: 436(80 absorb) Physical from 2 autos *2: 109 (Shield does not break on sona's first auto, but with a slightly faster AS breaks on second auto before Janna's second auto Losing AD for second auto.) No magic damage dealt Mana spent: 70 (23% of max pool. 10 seconds to recoup) Armor: 13 (88.5% damage from physical) MR: 30 (76.9% damage from magic) Effective damage done to Sona after resistances, 97 Sona is left with 283 hp, or 74.4% taking 22 seconds to recover.

** Sona:** Q: No Defensive bonus Effective health for trade: 380 Physical damage from 2 autos: 94 Magic Damage from first empowered auto: 40 Magic Damage from ability: 40 Effective damage: 174 Mana Spent: 45 (17% of max pool. 6.4 seconds to recoup) Armor: 12 (89.3% damage from physical) MR: 30 (76.9% damage from magic) Effective Damage done to Janna after resistances: (61.52 magic + 83.19 = 135 damage dealt. First cast+auto does 72 damage, not quite enough to break janna's shield.) Janna is left with 301 HP, or 84.5%, taking 12 seconds to recover to full.

Remlap12237/31/2014, 6:29:56 PM5 votes

The only time I really played Sona was as a non-meta mid laner for the most part. I could not get over the fact that laning against two people could melt Sona easier than anyone else in the game. So i stuck to mid lane as a poke mage with high sustain. It works decently and it negates the issue. As for Sona as a support, when playing against a team composition that wasn't particularly agressive, I had great success. Unfortunatley the meta is firmly stuck in Leona, Braum, Thresh, and Morgana, which go for huge damage to lock down and take out ADCs in one play, something that Sona is hard countered by. But despite this, Sona had a very firm presence in lane, and her buffs to her allies were still substantial with the auras despite the nerfs.

What Riot did with the rework pigeonholed Sona as a homogeneous textbook support without any buffs for tradeoff.

The only thing I like about this kit is the idea of tagging allies with abilities for bonus effects. Everything else is the exact opposite of what needed to be done. This rework makes Sona have to get on the front lines to do anything useful, which as squishy as she is (and with no ungodly buffs to her defenses to compensate for this) she might as well be Karthus with boobs. She literally might as well get a passive buff her dying, because she'll do it a lot the way this kit is meant to be played.

The removal of permanent Auras might have been good if she was meant to be played as an AP mid like I play her, but it contradicts her whole attrition aura support aspect. You're putting her in a position that detriments both her and her ADC.

I know that you have said that you aren't supposed to attack Riot, but sometimes harsh criticism is necessary. This rework is literally the worst one I've encountered. If I could pull only one rework back out of any of the reworks that have been done in League's history, this would be the one. And I'm pleading with Riot to undo the rework in patch 4.14. This is not Olafing, this is Urgoting. Sona will have a win rate and play rate around Urgot and Yorick if you do not change this next patch. I guarantee it. I don't think Sona needs a rework, but if you are dead-set on giving Sona a rework anyways, it's time to follow the PBE players advice and scrap this. Take it back to square one and start fresh. And like I said, I'm not attacking anyone, but this needs to be said. Start fresh and put this rework behind as a neat idea that just didn't pan out and start over. It happens. I make champion concepts all the time, but I know when to scrap a concept that doesn't work after fan criticism. It happens. We're only human.

XXnIE66Rui7/31/2014, 7:52:16 PM5 votes

I translated a bunch of feedback from Brazilian players into English over here:

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay/pokgR7yJ-sona-rework-feedback-from-br-players

That said, my personal, current thoughts on her:

  • She is extremely squishy early game. I don't personally feel comfortable poking with her early on unless I'm sure the opponents aren't going to react (e.g. aren't very skillful, aren't playing aggressive supports, can't keep me in place the second I step up to poke). She dies in very few hits.
  • With how squishy she is, I feel like taking W first is the only viable option for survival in case she gets caught level 1, but the heal still feels extremely insignificant (even with the shield).
  • I don't feel like I have much impact in lane early on. The Q buff feels clunky because I'm likely to steal CS with the two bolts.
  • I really wish the Q buff would work on towers, but I can see why it doesn't, since it gives a ton of siege potential later on when you can Q your whole team to take down a tower that much faster.
  • Sona really starts to pick up the pace when she gets her ult - not only because of the ult itself, but also because of the buffs it gives to her skills (in particular her E).
  • Sona REALLY starts to pick up the pace around when her ult is rank 2 and she has a couple of items.
  • Her late game feels considerably more powerful.
  • W feels very bad to use before late game. A small heal and a small shield are much harder to notice/less satisfying than just a big shield or a big heal. The effects are also conflicting - do I use my heal (with high mana costs) to keep my teammate topped off, or do I save it for when a shield is needed? The fact there's two of those combined in one makes the skill most useful only for a very specific situation - a trade where the teammate I'm trying to use the skill on has already taken damage. A pure heal is useful in any situation where a person has taken damage, and a pure shield is useful in any situation where a person is about to take damage. The shield is far too small (at least early on) to use with the teammate(s) at full health - it's a lot of mana for a tiny shield. It feels... restrictive, unlike other shields with extra effects which feel more comfortable to use even if you don't need the additional effect (e.g. Karma, Janna). Likewise, other heals with extra effects feel more comfortable to use even if you don't need the additional effect due to how Sona's heal scales.

I think her very very weak early game could use some tweaks. Largely because she is so risky to use that she can become a null presence in lane, or be kill fodder and cause her opponents to snowball. My only qualm with a support having a very weak early game is the fact that typically, ADCs do, too, which can really hurt the lane as a whole early on. Support is typically the strong character who babysits the ADC while they're still weak, and Sona is far too squishy without any hard CC to compensate to be able to really babysit her ADC early on. Her sustain potential also took quite a hit.