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Change to Heimerdinger’s turrets

Sagaxwiki··2 votes·2,373 views

Heimerdinger is in an awkward state right now; he is one of the only champions that falls into the “win lane, lose game” category. In the laning phase, his turrets do sufficiently high damage and are durable enough that their zoning ability is so strong that save intervention from a teammate, excellent AoE damage, or a Faker-esque outplay, laning against a Heimerdinger means losing your turret. However, once past the laning phase Heimerdinger is really underwhelming since a single AoE ability can destroy several of his turrets effectively eliminating his threat (since his other abilities have such long cooldowns). In order to flatten the usefulness of Heimerdinger’s turrets so that he can remain more useful after the laning phase but less oppressive during it, I propose adoption of changing his turrets to have a health bar like a ward or Zyra’s plants which requires 2 unique spell procs, 3 auto-attacks, or 1 spell and 2 autos to deplete

As an illustrative example of the effect of this change in the laning phase, consider an Annie laning against a Heimerdinger at level 3 when Heimerdingers’s turrets will have the most relative health due to hp/level scaling. Currently, assuming Annie has 1 point in her Q, 30 AP, and 8 flat magic pen from runes, her Q will do 89 damage (after resistances) and her autos will do 49 damage (once again after resistances). Assuming Heimerdinger also has 1 point in his Q and 30 AP, his turrets will have 203 health and due to his passive regenerate 2 hp/sec. In the proposed scenario Annie can kill one Heimerdinger turret in 8 seconds with 2 Q’s and an auto or 3 autos and a Q; meanwhile, Heimerdinger will take 22 seconds to replace the turret. By implementing the proposed change, the Annie player would either save 1 auto or the mana from 1 Q and reduce Heimerdingers ’s lane presence significantly for 14+ seconds.

As compensation for the effective nerf to his laning phase, in teamfights Heimerdinger will be a more reliable sustained damage source. As someone who enjoys Heimerdinger’s highly flexible and strategic playstyle, the most frustrating part about playing him is having your turrets take incidental AoE damage in a teamfight completely eliminating his damage and turning him into an impotent bobblehead (dat walking animation).

Heimerdinger is a champion defined by being an uniquely flexible controller/disruptor mage with his kit making him into a jack-of-all-trades but a master of none. His Q gives him sustained multi-target magic damage like Azir but at a reduced overall rate. His W makes him a passable but slightly below average (due to the long cooldown) siege and poke mage. His E combined with a Rylai’s crystal scepter gives him crowd control abilities in the vein of but not to the extent of Zyra. Even his ultimate serves to situationally increase his kit’s sustained damage, burst potential, or crowd control abilities. Despite the great flexibility of his kit, Heimerdinger’s pick rate, especially at higher elos remains low (at the time of this post in gold and above his pick rate is less than 2%); a fact which I attribute to the current design of his turrets. By changing the health of his turrets to a charge system, the power of his turrets could be more equitably divided between the laning phase and mid-game making him into a healthier, more viable champion.

17 Comments

Illiad2 votes

Reading it over thoroughly, yeah that would give his teamfight alot more presence since they would actually have to single out the turrets rather than just gp ult them

Sagaxwiki1 votes

They wouldn't even necessarily have to single them out; as I said in my post, the health charges would be depleted in two spell procs. The idea isn't to remove his weakness to AoE damage rather it is to prevent a single AoE spell in a mid/late game teamfight from completely eliminating the majority of his damage. Repeated use of AoE spells or focus would remain effective ways to deal with his turrets. Right now, Heimerdinger is an incredibly weak control mage in teamfights because the very nature of a teamfight (AoE spells flying everywhere) effectively negates his ability to provide zone control by eliminating his damage threat.

Illiad1 votes

so it would take a morgana Q and W to kill a turret, not just laying the W beneath all of them and them all being destroyed

Sagaxwiki1 votes

Exactly

Illiad1 votes

Yeah thats kinda neat. i could definitely see it being implemented and working out, the question is does Rito feel Heimer needs such and such. only time will tell

DarkLarvitar1 votes

yea heimer is op just immobile

Sagaxwiki1 votes

He really isn't OP; his kit is just very flexible which he pays for by having relatively quicker versions of abilities in his kit than less flexible champion. For example, Azir's soldiers are a much stronger multi-target damage threat than Heimer's turrets, but Heimerdinger is compensated for that fact with the ability to use his E to provide strong CC. On the other hand, Zyra provides a much larger CC threat than Heimerdinger but has (well at least after the nerfs I expect for her) less total damage output and less burst potential. The main issue as I see it with Heimerdinger right now is that his turrets are so oppressive during the laning phase that he can only be balanced by making his usefulness in teamfights substantially worse than similar champions.

ll League God ll1 votes

Heimer is fine how he is. His turrets are suppose to be a defenssive / zone control tool hence why he is considered a control mage, yet most nooberdingers put their turrets out front which isnt what they are designed for at all.

How many dingers do you see ult their E? very few

How many ult their Q? tons

How many ult their W? way too damn many

His W ulted is an absolute waiste.

Zyras plants also have a timer on them, if dingers turrets had a timer on them, he would be in a much worse place.

Dinger literally cant lose lane to anyone if he is halfway compotent, maybe yorick is the 1 example but thats only because yorick has been the best laner for years and years.

Stop trying to get changes made to a champ who is fine

P.S. banner / zzrot + dinger = unlosable lane

zSkeletoRz1 votes

[{quoted}](name=ll League God ll,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T3FeL4ul,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-05-15T18:52:58.146+0000)

Heimer is fine how he is. His turrets are suppose to be a defenssive / zone control tool hence why he is considered a control mage, yet most nooberdingers put their turrets out front which isnt what they are designed for at all.

How many dingers do you see ult their E? very few

How many ult their Q? tons

How many ult their W? way too damn many

His W ulted is an absolute waiste.

Zyras plants also have a timer on them, if dingers turrets had a timer on them, he would be in a much worse place.

Dinger literally cant lose lane to anyone if he is halfway compotent, maybe yorick is the 1 example but thats only because yorick has been the best laner for years and years.

Stop trying to get changes made to a champ who is fine

P.S. banner / zzrot + dinger = unlosable lane

Agreed with everything but the ult W being a waste. His ult W is used on single targets, does massive damage if all rockets hit a single target, breaking some shields and draining their health bar.

His ult E is used only on rare occasions that someone is escaping and can be stunned or last hit with the nade, allowing for a kill. Rarely does this happen, like Azir using his shuffle to drag someone under a tower with him. The situation has to be right for it to work right.

His ult Q is best used against crowds, placed behind to prevent escape. I've taken many penta by standing in a triangle of my turrets, W-E-ult Q-Zhonyas-W. Hit em with everything you have, ult turret just behind them, zhonyas to prevent dmg while you get you cds off and hit em with another w if you can. If anyone is left just replace any turrets you can, ignite, kite and aa.

The banner/rot donger is disgustingly op.

Sagaxwiki1 votes

I agree that Heimerdinger's kit is very flexible and new Donger players often misread how to use his ultimate. I also agree that banner/zz'rot portal makes Heimerdinger into a very difficult to deal with splitpusher. However, neither of those observations have anything to do with the change I am proposing which would allow Heimerdinger to function as a more effective member of a team. Right now, due to the flimsiness of his turrets in teamfights (which as I said often die simply as a byproduct of the other team using AoE spells on other targets), he is not able to be used at the highest skill levels for contesting team objectives. Obviously by increasing his power in one area his power in another area should be reduced. In my opinion the best place to remove excess power is his laning phase because as of right now it is by far the most frustrating part of his kit for other players to the extent that many people think that Heimer is an "unfun" champion.

The estroyer

i mainHeimerdingerand i always play offensive, because having lane dominance is key for him. not only does it provide pressure for the enemy champion it also help u get an early lead which is crucial so he wont fall off too quickly in the late. the only time i play defensive is when i'm losing lane, i have to leash making me lose my setup or the obvious bad mach upXerath

ZephyrDrake1 votes

how to destroy heimer by the OP! sorry but this won't make him "better" in teamfights it's just going to make him worst at all stages and nothing more. You yourself said that spells fly everywhere in teamfights so chances are that two random AoE spells (or some random stray skillshot) will just kill his turret regardless. He will still be weak in teamfights and he will be even weaker in the one stage if the game he is relevant... sorry but no

Sagaxwiki1 votes

During the laning phase as well as any 1v1, Heimer's power will largely be untouched since the turrets will have the same damage output and the charges will effectively give the turrets the same durability. The idea is that in teamfights a single stray skillshot or AoE spell can't destroy a turret. I don't want Heimer's turrets to be invincible; I just want his turrets to not die the moment that a teamfight starts. Also you have exactly 0 Heimerdinger games this season and less than 20 in your entire League history, so you hardly can claim to understand how he plays in teamfights.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

During the laning phase as well as any 1v1, Heimer's power will largely be untouched since the turrets will have the same damage output and the charges will effectively give the turrets the same durability. The idea is that in teamfights a single stray skillshot or AoE spell can't destroy a turret. I don't want Heimer's turrets to be invincible; I just want his turrets to not die the moment that a teamfight starts. Also you have exactly 0 Heimerdinger games this season and less than 20 in your entire League history, so you hardly can claim to understand how he plays in teamfights.

sorry but what? this is a nerf to his laning phase don't even think to deny it and you would never know how many times i play heimer since i don't use him in ranked. His turrets will die at the same speed regardless in teamfights, you can say whatever you want though i mean i have "less than 20 games in my entire league history!" don't I? give me a break, i know more about Heimer than you will ever will

Illiad2 votes

When you take away the random heimer game= knowledge thing, It does have some sense behind it. Riot doesnt see Heimer in a bad spot so they probably wont change him but the turrets requiring more than a simple morgana W to clear would be nice. the random spells in teamfights could take them out faster, but a single spell couldnt take them all out, where a gangplank ult would clear them all, it would only do a single damage to each, leaving them all still able to fight even through the AOE clear. yeah multiple abilities from multiple characters would clear them faster, but his lane phase in a 1v1 wouldnt actually be affected that harshly

Sagaxwiki1 votes

I highly doubt you know more about Heimerdinger than me. I have played Heimerdinger since his release and have almost 200 games on him. I know Heimerdinger's laning phase very well and essentially every champion can destroy one of his turrets with 2 spell hits and an auto; simply removing the auto-attack is not a major nerf to his laning phase.

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